Post BANJSTYhBD13iuEB04 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
(DIR) More posts by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
(DIR) Post #BAMSyplYqxFSIKn2Su by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@jmariswould that mean declaring it a criminal organization and making membership in it illegal?Does German law allow arresting an elected representative (Bundestag or Landtag member) when found to be part of such organization, or would that require the legislative body to lift the immunity?
(DIR) Post #BANDQ2EpBcAsgbO0Tg by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris the precise political / legal maneuvering details matter as to execution of the necessary act of banning them, but the details don't matter to the point of "can't be done"where there is a will, there is a wayif there is no will, then it's sparkling fascism for everyonethe stakes are dire. and not enough accept that. not doing something about #AfD is a problem almost as bad as the actual #fascismask me how i know as an american
(DIR) Post #BANDjEzQ06WRjiL1Jg by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris You need the executive branch to obey the order, and if some of them hesitate because they think what they're doing is an authoritarian power grab by the current govt, then it all falls apart - not only did you not remove the dangerous party, but you also radicalized all their sympathizers
(DIR) Post #BANE3n92ipD3SUdhC4 by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris yes, that's called life:every act is imperfect. but doing nothing is far worsesome choose to do nothing except whine about the details out of an impotent feeling of seeking perfection and an inability to come to grips with the reality and the stakes. this is nothing more than spinelessness and weakness. the fascist laughs with glee and is emboldenedi see every single risk you cite, and even more risks. then i cite the risk of doing nothing. and the argument is settled
(DIR) Post #BANEuL5TlmCnmu1qxk by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris It's called: in a democraftic state, government is in power because of its legitimacy.The goal isn't to maximize the number of fascists in prison, it's to convince the citizens not to vote for a fascist.I guess, failing that, a civil war will probably be better than letting them win without a fight. But that's easy to say when it's not your city that turns into a battlefield.
(DIR) Post #BANFGTzFMW25lAflMu by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris you answered your own question on your own termsyes, we're going to get revolution/ civil war if we don't settle this with political and legal (figurative) brass knuckles nowand the thing with revolution/ civil war is that the suffering on that scale makes playing hardball with fascists now look like a pleasant day in the parkanyone wringing their hands over the "implications" and "hypocrisy" or other bullshit high minded "concerns" is a fucking airhead aiding fascists
(DIR) Post #BANFWJg3ScAUQ1FIn2 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris Outlawing a party *is* starting a civil war, you just need to do it at a moment where you win immediately.
(DIR) Post #BANFgIFtbO2gu8leSG by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris And I'm not even getting into second-order effects of how that undermines your ability to have peaceful transfer of power between the remaining parties in any future election
(DIR) Post #BANG0xalcgswtpNuKm by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris if the fascist start shooting, we fucking shoot them backit's either that, or we wind up shooting back *after* they control the govt and shoot us firstseems like a pretty simple choicethe dithering and hand wringing is from weak airheads who think there is some magic way to avoid the shooting. there isn'tso you want to do this now when we can win, or later when we might not plus 5,000,000x suffering?the fascists *depend* upon our weakness
(DIR) Post #BANG7JecVe4j3sDY2a by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris who gives a fuckthere is no more peaceful transfer of power if the fascists win, merely because we're too scared and hesitant to push backthose are the stakesand they overrule every single concern you have
(DIR) Post #BANGkipkpHZMRrDR4K by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris You said you know what it's like since you're from USA, and you've seen a "fascists win" option play out. Does that mean that you're 100% certain Trumpists won't give up power if they lose the next election? And that you'd rather have a civil war right now that whatever is currently happening? If so, where's your AR-15?
(DIR) Post #BANGuilFx0Mf7Rsb8S by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris On top of that, you said in your original post the second option is "apply german law", and now you're trying to argue german law doesn't actually matter. So which is it?
(DIR) Post #BANHtyp8qQB4bKuKUC by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris what the fuck are you talking about? are you reading what i'm saying? i said apply german law, and i'm still saying apply german law. no contradiction was remotely indicated
(DIR) Post #BANI1XhZZFnKnfyPIm by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris i don't want a civil war at all. i want people to vote"If so, where's your AR-15?"right. just like "if you support ukraine, why aren't you on the front line" style bullshit😂we seem to be strolling into vatnik style "argumentation"i wonder why that ishmmm
(DIR) Post #BANI27uawJbN6ULJb6 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris If you're saying "apply german law" then help me figure out what the german law is and what exact steps need to be taken according to it, for fucks sake.You just spent 4-6 posts arguing that "who gives a fuck, just YOLO it"
(DIR) Post #BANIUIbWmLO2NFrFvE by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris"Article 21 (1) Political parties shall participate in the formation of the political will of the people... They must publicly account for their assets and for the sources and use of their funds. (2) Parties that, by reason of their aims or the behaviour of their adherents, seek to undermine or abolish the free democratic basic order or to endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany shall be unconstitutional."and you spent 10 posts posturing in defense of AfD
(DIR) Post #BANIqm91d4sUMXFB20 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris ok, so let's go back to the start:The precise political / legal manouvering is everything.If it wasn't, then Germany would've outlawed AfD already.If you don't know why they didn't do it yet, you can't hope to convince them to do it now.
(DIR) Post #BANJ2NaAmCoJewTVfU by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris i know why they didn't do it yeti'm from the usa, we have our spineless centrist shitand germany is going to be like the usa if you don't wake the fuck up and stop yammering in defense of AfDis that your intention or not?if not, you're an airhead yapping about "concerns" while rome burnsif it is, you're transparent in your efforts
(DIR) Post #BANJSTYhBD13iuEB04 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris I'm not a German citizen, I have no influence over what German govt does.The only thing I can do is understand better the mechanisms at play, on the tiny tiny chance that I think of a convincing argument that nobody yet thought about, and a further tiny chance that it spreads.Spineless centrist shit? All politicians are by definition spineless, yet they'd prefer to stay in power. If they knew that banning AfD would keep them in power, they would've done that.
(DIR) Post #BANJfJhl7xEevWaedk by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris the issue here is we have a problem, and we are talking solutionsyou agree there is a problem, yes?so what is your solutioni have proposed: apply german lawpropose yours"everything sucks and then you die, waah" is not a solution, it's not even a talking point. it's just whining. is that all you have?
(DIR) Post #BANJqzYZra4xuhrXqS by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris My solution is:1. Figure out the practical details of applying german law.2. Assess whether applying german law in this case, in this moment, should be a no-brainer for german politicians.3. If not, figure out what's preventing them, look for ways to remove these obstacles.
(DIR) Post #BANJvjO7PCP1DPELMO by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris thank youwhich is what i fucking said 20 comments ago
(DIR) Post #BANKd7zhnOoryxVLPc by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris It's not exactly what you said, but I'm glad we agree.I don't know why, but every time we end up in the same thread, we end up talking past each other.I guess the reason I got combative is I'm sick of people who say "It's that simple" and aren't willing to consider that it might not, in fact, be that simple.And recognizing the complexity is necessary to have a productive public debate.
(DIR) Post #BANKnLLZ0RQCI3bErg by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris it is that simple: the decisionit is not that simple: the detailsthe problem is not the details, the problem are spineless milquetoast who don't press the fucking ENTER key and start the program
(DIR) Post #BANKvptnIXLJMXf0FM by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris If that were true, NATO wouldn't be able to deter Putin from invading the Baltics.The decision to press ENTER is always predicated on the expected outcome, and the expected outcome depends on the details.
(DIR) Post #BANLSwWjfxkrTXf4pk by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris i find you guilty of a flawed analogythe proper analogy is:when putin comes to the baltics, is NATO going to dither or execute?in germany, as in the usa, "putin came to the baltics" and centrists sat there with their hands under their legs, sweating in quiet desperationget up, and execute
(DIR) Post #BANM9q19kl1HjtLPua by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris Your analogy is even more flawed.If Putin comes to the Baltics, the military command chain will react before the politicians realize what's going on.When multiple RUS drones flew into Polish airspace a year ago, air assets from 4 other NATO countries were over Poland within tens of minutes.Here, Putin chooses the time, NATO reaction is automatic.
(DIR) Post #BANMdr7CEmcnpXU1CK by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris On top of that, a lot of geopolitical engineering went into making sure that it is in most NATO member's best self-interest to fight Russia whenever some other member is fighting Russia. William Spaniel made an excellent video explaining how that works, but I can't find it right now.
(DIR) Post #BANMwyCq66FFKCEl0q by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris yes of course, which is why putin is engaging in hybrid warfare and not direct confrontation. to eat away at the political will. so eventually, he hopes, NATO reaction won't be so automaticand yes, my analogy was flawed. but it was accurate on the *previous* topic. this is new territory, and you are entirely correct in this new territory
(DIR) Post #BANOQezGDYJKMMbgci by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris Still, on the original topic: NATO was engineered to mitigate the problem of coward politiciansWhether it's about helping an ally, or banning an unconstitutional part,when a politician hesitates to make the decision, that means in that politician's mind, the costs of that decision outweight how much the politicians care (resolve) about the thing at state (expected outcome minus status quo)You focus on resolve, but expected outcome and costs of war are also available dials
(DIR) Post #BANOxE4NJj3YQtWmP2 by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris but this equation is already solved and is obvious. see our discussion abovethus anyone still hesitating is not providing leadership nor executive decision making. just spinelessnessto fit your current analogy, when the allies landed at anzio, they hesitated. the germans and italians were surprised and could have been routed quickly. however the hesitation allowed the germans and italians to regroup and it turned into a bloody 4 month grindhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Anzio
(DIR) Post #BANP7NBYHPXPbIitPs by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris I don't agree with your solution of the equation.
(DIR) Post #BANPTNJWTyNYN0wWDA by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris i don't care, because we're going to be fighting the fascist now, or later when its worse. that's the only choice. there is no not fighting them. this collapses all the tangential issues and clarifies the necessary decisionthat you don't understand this or "disagree" has no meaning to me. you don't offer anything else except hand waving
(DIR) Post #BANPVDVVujhuXDQhjE by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris are you fighting fascists right now in USA?
(DIR) Post #BANPplUrFgAfk6vAa8 by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris yes. i vote. i agitate to vote left. and i will be doing more in that avenuebecause if we do vote, for nonspineless leadership, we can move against this tide before we become russia 2.0are you angling for another "unless you pick up a gun and start shooting people you're not genuine" vatnik style argument? 😂 and what are you doing, besides throwing up cognitive vaporware roadblocks that only aids the AfD?
(DIR) Post #BANQ4GG3g9VFCXuXpI by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
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@benroyce @jmaris I'm not claiming to live in a country ruled by fascists.And if fascists can be stopped by voting, then the equation is not what you said it is.If they can be stopped by voting, then banning them now could lead to a worse outcome, and you have not provided a convincing argument of why it doesn't.
(DIR) Post #BANQNOLjookLnbgpKy by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@wolf480pl @jmaris 😂 i've not provided a convincing argument that fascism is a problem? or that opposing fascism is the solution? or some detail in between that you think allows you to flap your gums and sound serious yet you offer nothing but "but it's hard man"i'm glad your country isn't facing fascism. good for youwill you help us who are and are trying to fight it? or provide incoherent arguments in contradiction to the process of recognizing a problem and providing solutions?