Post B7T0SPA3oE8UGwYhgO by bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org
(DIR) More posts by bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org
(DIR) Post #B7SokShqAYb31rCe1I by bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org
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In a policy statement¹, @conservancy said:> “#FOSS projects should not shun contributors who choose to use LLM-gen-AI systems.”@dalias' reply:>> “LOL WTF NOPE. 🤡”While it was surely unintentional, your reply is quite similar to the cruelty of traditional #FreeSoftware rhetoric — wherein we shunned people for *using* #Apple & #Microsoft. Such users deserve sympathy and help toward more software freedom.Same goes for #LLM-backed generative #AI users.¹ https://sfconservancy.org/llm-gen-ai/llm-backed-generative-ai-recommendations.html#OpenSource
(DIR) Post #B7SokSw1JpwHjppy7c by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@bkuhn @conservancy @dalias Except there's a gigantic gap between use of proprietary systems, and shoving the still-legally-unclear-status (and quite possibly proprietary) output of LLMs into FOSS projects.Like for example we wouldn't accept dubious-licensed Cliparts into FOSS, right?(And that's just one issue of LLMs incompatibility with FOSS communities)
(DIR) Post #B7T0SPA3oE8UGwYhgO by bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org
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@lumi commented on https://sfc.ngo/llm-gen-ai-recs saying:>> “i would really like to see a stronger stance against these dehumanization machines, honestly..”I spent much of my early #FreeSoftware career taking ridiculously unpragmatic stances, while also hating myself b/c I wasn't #FOSS-pure enough.In response to that, I developed a philosophy to “use the tools of the oppressor against the oppressor” — which I had learned from #copyleft cf: this article I wrote recently:https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/jun/02/ethical-use-proprietary-develop-free-software-foss/
(DIR) Post #B7T0SPMT463otQMc1Q by lumi@snug.moe
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@bkuhn i've read the linked article, and i actually feel you are mostly correct when it comes to proprietary software. i would just not see it as a moral imperative to use proprietary software if it in the end causes advancements for free software. i would more so see it as a potentially necessary sacrifice, and if someone wishes to go in that direction, then that is their choicethough, in this case, it is important that they are very careful when using proprietary software. they should be very clear that they do not endorse it, and make sure there will be no dependence on it. they should also make sure their usage of it does not make anyone else use it. proprietary software is still not okayi also agree that using proprietary software is not an individual moral failure. the user may just not know how bad it is or how it is affecting them or the world around them. a lot of the effects are difficult to notice to someone who has never looked at the power relations in software. blaming them amounts to victim blaming. we need to get together against it, and we are stronger togetherthe problem is that proprietary software exists, not that it is being usednow, on the topic of genai, i feel things are different than with proprietary software. for one it's not made necessary in the same way proprietary software is. if you are forced to use it, it's an employer breathing down your neck telling you to use it, not actually a necessary step of any process. with proprietary software, there often is no other wayproprietary software also does not attempt to devalue humanity itself; to replace creativity. whether genai succeeds in this goal is irrelevant, the fact that the goal is to replace human creativity and ingenuity is offensive in itself and is something that should not be allowed, in my opiniondo i think that usage of genai is an individual moral failure and we should go on witch hunts? no. of course not. antagonizing everyone is of course not going to work. but we do need to draw a hard line around all software (and everything else!) and respectfully, but firmly, say no to these dehumanization machinesthis is also the same technology wreaking havoc in writing, art, music, ...; and i feel we should all be together in solidarity against all genaithough, after re-reading the llm-gen-ai-recs article more carefully, i do think it is less objectionable than i thought in my initial reading. still, i do not think genai should ever be tolerated. i do agree that someone submitting a patch using it shouldn't be shunned (unless they know of the policy and are doing this on purpose; or are doing this repeatedly); they should be educated on the harms and shown how to do the contribution properlyi prefer to be constructive and not blame individuals. i want to build communities and projects resisting genai. in that context i want to create genai-free software, fork genai-tainted projects and convince projects to ban genai
(DIR) Post #B7T1F41XBcxquAlzl2 by bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org
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@jens Saying "Nope. Fail." as a snap response to the culmination of four years of careful study is much more insensitive IMO 🤷 FWIW, I think the 2 statements are the same idea— a generation apart.If you believe I haven't learned the fundamental lessons of how capitalism always manipulates technology to harm its users & that SFC's recommendations are 💯 FAIL, then I don't mind if you say I (& SFC) are just clueless blowhards. Call 'em as you see 'em!(Not being sarcastic at all.)@lumi
(DIR) Post #B7T2p4kI511BWURX4y by lumi@snug.moe
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@bkuhn i would also argue that, unlike proprietary software in the 80's/90's, genai is in a position where we can actually eliminate itthere is much more popular support. everyone seems to hate it, especially artists, writers and suchthere is also the whole bubble caused by itif we make a stance, i do feel genai can be blocked
(DIR) Post #B7T6xCrSBqMkpHvTwO by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@bkuhn @conservancy @dalias> While it was surely unintentional, your reply is quite similar to the cruelty of traditional #FreeSoftware rhetoric — wherein we shunned people for using #Apple & #Microsoft. Such users deserve sympathy and help toward more software freedom.>> Same goes for #LLM-backed generative #AI users.Sorry, I usually really value your opinions on stuff, as you tend to run contrary to the so-pragmatic-they'd-pimp-their-own-mothers attitude that is far too prevalent in (F)OSS, but hard disagree.There's a big difference between knocking someone for using a MacBook and knocking someone for using an LLM.Using a MacBook harms the user in ways that are somewhat debatable. Its harm outside of the user is very negligible and even more debatable.Using LLMs harms us all. I don't doubt that there are valid and ethical applications for LLMs in many sectors, but you don't build a giant baby shredder on top of an indigenous burial ground and then suddenly pivot to saying, "But wait, it can process potatoes, too!"If we're not talking about the theft of human creativity, the theft of potable water, the theft of human labor and wages, the promotion of über-fascist plutocrats, and all of the other horrendous harms associated with LLMs, then we're not talking about LLMs. We're engaging in some kind of fantasy roleplay.Respectfully,—Some dingbat named Dane, or something, who loves humanity and freedom.
(DIR) Post #B7T6xDFClXMg0x2Rxg by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@bkuhn @conservancy @daliasSkimming the "Recommendations" document, I can appreciate you striving for a "middle-of-the-road" approach towards a very controversial topic, and I appreciate the parts where you acknowledge the issues and harms, particularly of paid employees on #FOSS projects being forced to use LLMs.I can also understand the perspective of some that an absolute-anti-AI stance is somehow "simple" or "easy" compared to actually being vulnerable and humble enough to "dig into the nuance" of it all.But...Brah.Naw man.See here... I'm all for being conciliatory and humane towards other people "trying to get the job done," and I totally understand that FOSS project leads are looking down the barrel of a cocked gun when it comes to the strain and pressure they're under, attempting to keep their projects alive and healthy with very little resources."Remember the human" is the best advice for times like this, when confusion and infighting would very well make monsters of us all.But this really isn't a conciliatory moment. This is a close-up-shot-of-Picard-belting-out-an-impassioned-speech-that-would-make-Shakespeare-weep kind of moment.While I respect the desire to take a layered, nuanced view of #LLMs, the FOSS world never shined by capitulating and compromising. It never shined by rolling out the red carpet for corporate white slavers.FOSS shines in the obscurity and beauty of niche software running on niche hardware for the sake of freedom, not convenience.I started my journey in 1997 by attempting to get a FOSS OS (which was guided by noble values) to work on my hardware, and failing. Three years later, it succeeded, while still being guided by noble values. If I have to surrender the amazing strides we've made in terms of features and hardware support to cling to some kind of niche FOSS OS which is somehow still guided by noble values, I think that's a respectable sacrifice to make. 🤷♂️If we give up everything that makes FOSS FOSS for the sake of some utilitarian goal, what is the point anymore?Do we need or want a FOSS nuclear bomb?A FOSS kill-drone?A FOSS grenade launcher?If those ideas are (obviously) distasteful and horrid, then that means that there's something more to FOSS than just the license, and it's dismaying to see the FOSS world stripped of all of its values and virtues and somehow being appeased by, "But it's still Open Source!!"If that sophistry actually works on us, then I guess we deserve to be plundered.