Post B6rXVIwGlFb69HMwmu by lumi@snug.moe
(DIR) More posts by lumi@snug.moe
(DIR) Post #B5MJkQIdjHOOtp7kkC by lumi@snug.moe
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yes, fuck "open source". we don't need "open source"what we need is free software, and we need it in the most holistic way possible. software which goes against all hierarchies: anti-fascist, feminist, anti-racist, lgbtq+ inclusive, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, anti-genai, etcyes, this includes source availability under a free software license. of course it does, it's still free softwareand we need it for everyone, not just power users. everyone should be empowered and we should be in solidarity with the whole working class:neocat_heart:
(DIR) Post #B5MKPPFIYJXNVI6Soa by lumi@snug.moe
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let's have a renaissance in free software, where instead of being myopic over source code availability and licensing, we have a more holistic movementyes, source code must still be available under a free software license, but we must demand more than the bare minimumi suggest we start using a document like VALUES.md to note the values that the software project has
(DIR) Post #B5MKkJXWxiBLt8bKAC by sel@mk.absturztau.be
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@lumi@snug.moe this is why i love ethical source licenses (especially hippocratic)i disagree with the idea that software is "only free" if it can be used by anyone for any organization. i don't want the things i make to be used to hurt or oppress anyone
(DIR) Post #B5MKkK0FEx9PKC2Fv6 by lumi@snug.moe
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@sel licenses like this give me mixed feelings, mostly because of license compatibility. i feel like licenses can only go so far, as we are using a fundamentally unethical system (namely, copyright) against itselfi feel it is more productive to just have a plain free software license and then have the community around the project have these valuesin the end, the community and its values are the most important
(DIR) Post #B5MLMozOTxmeQmzmUa by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@lumi @sel aka, a code of conduct is a better place to put ethics than a code license
(DIR) Post #B5MLQmdbAQWCIQgqfo by lumi@snug.moe
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@navi @sel i'm still unsure what the best place would be, code of conduct is one place, but i was also thinking of something like VALUES.mdthough i also don't want to spam the root of the repo with too many files
(DIR) Post #B5MLZnEmJ5oQlKNQ5w by scottymace@infosec.exchange
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@lumi If the source code isn't open, then how can it be free? How can it meet your criteria? I agree with your sentiment in general, but don't conflate free as in beer with free as in freedom.
(DIR) Post #B5MLZnOLjVT7F0r40u by lumi@snug.moe
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@scottymace i think you're misunderstanding me, i mean "free software" in the sense of "free as in freedom" and i am going further on the "free" aspect of itwhat i am going against is the term "open source", as it puts way too much emphasis on the source code, rather than the whole projectof course the source code must still be available under a free license
(DIR) Post #B5MLh2cjV0lIVe2OGm by violet@corteximplant.com
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@lumi open hearts > open source
(DIR) Post #B5MLzOGll9NAr4Vv1s by SRAZKVT@tech.lgbt
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@lumi @navi @sel wouldn't that just be the inverse of the coc, aka instead of going "we don't want you to do that" but "we protect that"
(DIR) Post #B5MLzvRYQ4bjk4oUvA by lumi@snug.moe
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@SRAZKVT @navi @sel PROTECC.md
(DIR) Post #B5MMQe1zGZiVYcaycS by violet@corteximplant.com
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@lumi @navi @sel Maybe a START_HERE/ dir?
(DIR) Post #B5MMQeF6ToD0DIjS40 by lumi@snug.moe
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@violet @navi @sel somehow having a dir in all caps bothers me even tho having a file in all caps doesn't... hmmbut yes maybe something like that could be nice to collect all those files. it's kinda like a docs dir tho, just for the project
(DIR) Post #B5MMRwdfZJOTYeqCSe by violet@corteximplant.com
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@navi @sel @lumi and if they do not fix their hearts, you can always patch them remotely using handy 9mm or better patch containers! :sparkles_spoopy: 💓
(DIR) Post #B5MPWLwdittP41VXTU by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@navi @sel @lumi Yeah, specially as copyright is effectively only relevant between distributors and when it's a public license trying to then put limits on who can use it is like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube (plus the question of license enforcement tends to lead to rather "funny" answers), and I don't think anyone would want the burden of private licences.Meanwhile things like code of conducts and proper governance models (screw the dictator model) are much more meaningful, after all a software project tends to ressembles the organisation it's from.
(DIR) Post #B5MPdW6aLTfIbRZkcS by RegGuy@mstdn.social
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@lumi So free food, free healthcare, free housing, free public transportation, ..., etc. If everything isn't free then nothing can truly be free. Because someone has to spend effort to create this free software you want. How do they live if everything isn't free, as they are giving away their efforts?
(DIR) Post #B5MPw2boEilMcj0tfc by lumi@snug.moe
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@lanodan @navi @sel in the end, the people that create and use the software are the most importantif some corporation decides to fork it and make something unethical, and the community has strongly held morals and values, it will be as if that fork does not really exist, anywaywe can just keep doing our thing
(DIR) Post #B5MPzAuHqCoZED9OPA by zyd@yap.zyd.lol
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@sel @lumi Licenses aren't relevant to whether or not software will be used for oppression. Political organizing and action is (and no, I don't mean go vote or some other nonsense). One of the limitations of Free Software, as defined by the FSF and GNU, is its extremely narrow focus on copyright. Was a useful hack, doesn't matter all that much now.
(DIR) Post #B5MRn6vJ1fFxJ50CVU by ska@social.treehouse.systems
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@lanodan @sel @lumi @navi I disagree with "screw the dictator model" up to a certain project size. I want to have control over the code in my projects, not to have power over people, but because coding is a creative expression for me and I want it to be something I have made, even if it involves input/help/contributions from others.I think it's okay for people to have a sense of ownership of projects, up to a certain scope. Even communism recognizes personal property, it only socializes the means of production, which would probably mean a project that grows so much it becomes unrealistic to consider it one person's creation.Like, I'm okay with OpenSSL being socialized, and I'm also okay with bearssl having Pornin as bdfl (if only he would maintain it more), because bearssl is a mom-and-pop-shop while OpenSSL is a huge factory.Small projects are generally of much better quality and have better velocity than big ones, and I think the governance model plays a large role in it. Operational teams, in any context, have a leader, they're not democratic, and that's because a (bounded in scope and time) hierarchical organization is more efficient at small sizes.I don't think that's evil. I think that's human, and it's something we must learn to compose with and integrate into our workflows - and that includes always be watching for the point where dictatorship becomes risky or abusive.
(DIR) Post #B5MRs20UjRdHVUm9RI by lumi@snug.moe
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@ska @lanodan @sel @navi yeah, it depends on scale and how many people it affectsit's free software, so you technically can always fork itbut, the bigger the project, the more infeasible it becomes, which also makes project governance become more and more important
(DIR) Post #B5MSq2ZBmRkAcLcNyy by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@ska @sel @lumi @navi For me stuff like governance starts to matter when it's more than like a loose group of pals, plus also have to remember that with git there isn't issues over who has commit rights over the repo like you had with stuff like CVS (or worse, tarballs).And yeah I'd describe bearssl as homemade, which also means small enough that someone else with a different opinion could pretty easily maintain a soft-fork if they would want to.Meanwhile OpenSSL you need a team and well I feel like LibreSSL proved that it's a pretty difficult task, and it's not even my canonical example of a too-big-to-fork.(Typical examples for me are Firefox and Chromium, they would put a team of people to burnout in record time)
(DIR) Post #B5MTqBC1o7bPKHPnJQ by SRAZKVT@tech.lgbt
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@lanodan @sel @lumi @ska @navi browsers are a lost cause, honestly the whole web should be scrapped, but it's too far gone now and everyone requires it for the littlest of things
(DIR) Post #B5MYhJbPfhIMZWsgvQ by RegGuy@mstdn.social
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@lumi So just my source of income should be eliminated? I made 95% of my lifetime earnings from programming or supporting software. I truly don't think this can work. I've written my share of free code that I have shared with the world starting in 1984, but I could not have survived if I had given all my software away.
(DIR) Post #B5MkX5jDbDHG62QJF2 by pomagarnet@chaos.social
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@lumi I like how bahn.expert (website) loads with a small toast notification like "trans rights or riot nights". I didn't dwell on it much at first, like ok lovely harmless, but apparently no - this is a huge upset for some bigots! and that's great!maybe we should infect software a lot of ways, with easter eggs or even code (function/variable names, architecture diagrams, etc). adds whimsy, boosts moral, and keeps out the losers? win win.
(DIR) Post #B5jeznfFi12xNex89g by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@lanodan @sel @lumi @ska @navi in git, it’s not called commit, it’s called push, but it makes no difference to CVS for the topic at hand
(DIR) Post #B5jf3Z9naYvRXs2JcG by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@navi @sel @lumi yes, trying to play games with licences is not a good idea, and copyright licences are utterly unsuited venues to push agendas
(DIR) Post #B5l35ru7RzZyKFIE5o by sel@mk.absturztau.be
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@mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org @navi@social.vlhl.dev @lumi@snug.moe is checks notes not killing people an "agenda" to you? that i'm "pushing" by not giving genocidal exploitative bastards (see: cops, militaries, ecocide, mass surveillance, etc.) permission to use my programs?are we deadass?of course, the ethics and values of the community around the project matter just as much, if not more. hl3-full (for me at least) is the bare minimum to be even allowed to use it.
(DIR) Post #B5l35s7aduM301az5c by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@sel @lumi @navi it’s not something you either can or should fight within a copyright licence.
(DIR) Post #B5l39c8g0V4eaZt7zc by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@lumi @navi @sel do it somewhere else, someplace else (it’s a good fight)
(DIR) Post #B5l3DbEZJVYAwNXoy8 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@lumi @navi @sel the baddies are going to use your stuff anyway and get an exemption for it
(DIR) Post #B5l3HYewpNE478lqbI by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@sel @lumi @navi such restrictions, in history, have never not backfired eventually
(DIR) Post #B5l67DZsebPjhHA5Fg by lumi@snug.moe
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@sel @mirabilos @navi i think you might be misunderstanding mirabilos' point. we are all against what you're listing, we just do not think the license is a good place to go against thatcopyright is fundamentally against us all and even copyleft is a hack to make it somewhat do what we wantbut we must not forget that copyright itself is not our friend
(DIR) Post #B5l6Fm7Y6jGL9AzSJU by lumi@snug.moe
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@sel @mirabilos @navi i would fully agree to write down the values and code of conduct of a project to state the project is completely against all of these things, i would just not use the license for this purpose
(DIR) Post #B5l6tsbdPmSwqOBaLo by lumi@snug.moe
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@sel @mirabilos @navi please cw this, this is a very heavy post
(DIR) Post #B5lThodqcseQ1HRBc8 by sel@mk.absturztau.be
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@lumi@snug.moe @mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org @navi@social.vlhl.dev done, and sorry for not doing that when i wrote this post :neocat_sad:i was somewhat angry at an internet creature i don't know (and was still tired from yesterday), and i just forgot to write a cw, even though in hindsight it's really obvious this post needs one
(DIR) Post #B5lThoopy1RQZMZxk8 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@sel @navi @lumi no hard feelings; I hope you’ll be less stressed tomorrow
(DIR) Post #B6JzuTKAzufZZrx7hY by dequbed@mastodon.chaosfield.at
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@lumi ~~anarchist software~~ 🏴
(DIR) Post #B6KLuBd2zHtXgf33b6 by mana@woof.tech
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@lumi Was wondering recently if a terms of service at the forge level as well, especially if it were a self-hosted or community-hosted instance of forgejo, could add some light protections value-wise. X/Twitter and Adobe and such have done the inverse before, requiring that any who use the software on their servers submits their work to be trained on generative models, with only some having opt-outs. One would wonder if GitHub especially, but also other corporate git services have similar terms, if it has not been found to already.
(DIR) Post #B6KLuBqs9sxCNXW69A by lumi@snug.moe
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@mana i feel part of it might be good for a ToS, while other parts should just be in a document describing the values of the projectthough the ToS can still state that you should strive to be inclusive, that you can't endorse genai at all, and some other stuffthe values document would then say the project is completely against all genai use
(DIR) Post #B6KN2HXezDu2ITx7Zo by mana@woof.tech
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@lumi Oh yes, the suggestion was meant to compliment the VALUES.md/C.o.C, and some terms would not make senss in such a document, as well as the reverse; they would have to be tailored to their respective formats to be any amount of reasonably enforceable, as much as this can be.As another note, maybe it would be wise to put in somewhere that the project holds that using the project as training data is believed by that project to be against the free software licenses' terms explicitly. That, or just a simple statement that codewashing is against the terms/values.
(DIR) Post #B6KN2I8AnT6s7j2HUO by mana@woof.tech
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@lumi As a potentially sillier suggestion, one could name the software as something less than commercially friendly, in some equivalent to GIMP's name being considered such.There was some library, or something, that was named a slur for lesbians, presumably by a lesbian although it is hard to verify with not having saved the page. There's always the classic GIMP example, as well.
(DIR) Post #B6rVZD64Dv9THQgdIO by tael@yiff.life
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@lumi basically free/libre?
(DIR) Post #B6rVZDJXPpvXxCzOIC by lumi@snug.moe
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@tael that, plus all of the other things mentioned x)
(DIR) Post #B6rXVIhjdHyHQCZL8K by fozunja@glamour.ovh
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are you talking about OQL license now?
(DIR) Post #B6rXVIwGlFb69HMwmu by lumi@snug.moe
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@fozunja i didn't even know of oql, interestingi don't think a license is the right way to go about this, to be honest. it is more so about community valuesstill, for anyone that wants to use a license like this, i feel it would be nice to ban all genai use in projects with this license, incl for art, code, writing and everything else
(DIR) Post #B6rXr9PUrvV2y1SPKK by fozunja@glamour.ovh
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on my way to create OQLD license that includes most of OQL but forbids ai usage xD
(DIR) Post #B6rbjxTzDUEflQNo80 by Alsvid@brain.worm.pink
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@lumi@fozunjaWumi