Post B41VaCtBo5Drk2ROca by asie@mk.asie.pl
 (DIR) More posts by asie@mk.asie.pl
 (DIR) Post #B40ZsIuENeYGH0qwWO by asie@mk.asie.pl
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       vim, harfbuzz, who's next? people ask in shock, but...i think, fundamentally, the reason Claude and Codex are becoming part of crucial FOSS projects is the same reason xz almost became the entry point for mass-scale server hacking a few years ago. we've decided to make billion dollar industries rely on burned out, lonely individual developers who never found a way to get paid for their labor. we never managed to solve that problem.these burned out, lonely devs see a tool that spits out the boring part of their work in a more or less functional manner if you squint, and it "only" (*) costs "$200" (**) a month. i can imagine why most people take it. heck, i won't deny that i am tempted myself, but my convictions remain too strong.i've also seen some say that these people should step down and make way for new developers. who, exactly? i know how many months it took me to find a maintainer for one of the more popular Minecraft mods, and that's a position with both far more takers and far less responsibility on either side.i think that a lot of what's going to happen to software in the next few years is the consequence of long term systemic issues. the introduction of LLM tools to the equation is merely an illuminant and accelerant
       
 (DIR) Post #B41VaCb6tIlEpxyxRQ by Amikke@qoto.org
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       @asie I think, fundamentally, that a tool mimicking a cheap, very fast and very enthusiastic intern is a no-brainer, and the only considerations are the cost and any moral issues. Cost isn't high and moral issues are mostly made up by people mad that their jobs are being automated, so increasing adoption is only the matter of time and people realising they're fighting windmills.
       
 (DIR) Post #B41VaCtBo5Drk2ROca by asie@mk.asie.pl
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       @Amikke@qoto.org In the late 1980s, Sun Microsystems tried to unbundle the C compiler from SunOS, leading to a bunch of sysadmins picking up a niche, academic project called the GNU C Compiler.Over time, this led to a golden age where anyone could have access to industry-leading tools, pretty much everything required to effectively create code, for free - anything from compilers through IDEs to version control. Of course, cloud solutions existed for various things, but they were never really compulsory. Likewise, while faster machines certainly helped, an used $100~$150 laptop let you accomplish most things at an acceptable rate for a decade+ now.The infeasibility of self-hosting "frontier" large language models without thick pockets is, in my opinion, the undoing of this golden age and a threat to a kind of "digital sovereignty" afforded to the field of programming. Likewise, the rate of expansion of the LLM hosting industry is threatening the accessible pricing of computer hardware.This sets aside other issues, which I do indeed share. I have privately been a long-running skeptic of piracy's impact on at least some aspects of culture even before LLM training came to rely on it. As a project maintainer, I need to be responsible and consider that European law does not necessarily have to evolve in its favor. I'm also still not exactly satisfied with the output of these tools; but maybe my comparatively lower wages as a Pole affect the perception of "cheapness" of the LLM solution somewhat.This doesn't exhaust my feelings on the matter, but I hope I have made it clear that my position does not stem from "made up moral issues"; of course, you are free to disagree with me.
       
 (DIR) Post #B41qhQzVs9GMXhgbya by tehrealgh5tbusters@woof.tech
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       @asie Wait, they're vibe coding vim??? MOTHERFUCKING VIM???
       
 (DIR) Post #B41qhRLUYQqNdryAEa by kirby@freerobuxextremist.com
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       @tehrealgh5tbusters @asie it's joever. use plan 9 sam 5ever
       
 (DIR) Post #B41qzwvHtC0Kn2XRlw by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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       @kirby @asie @tehrealgh5tbusters vscode and zed work wine.
       
 (DIR) Post #B41r278Mtc5X2PgmlU by kirby@freerobuxextremist.com
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       @mischievoustomato @asie @tehrealgh5tbusters an llm has seen both. LASER EYES!!!!!
       
 (DIR) Post #B41r66BQNAIPFQ1DJw by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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       @kirby @asie @tehrealgh5tbusters i reckon even plan9 source has been seen. There's a nonzero chance someone asked chatgpt explain its code to em or how2install it too.
       
 (DIR) Post #B41rA0414CA7QWPiN6 by kirby@freerobuxextremist.com
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       @mischievoustomato @asie @tehrealgh5tbusters let me shift the goalpostsan llm has modified*
       
 (DIR) Post #B41rFCoF6eSwP8WB84 by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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       @kirby @asie @tehrealgh5tbusters oknow you have to trust the honesty of the devs involved :)
       
 (DIR) Post #B41uJ9MSAUvMjN5mN6 by syzygy@dsmc.space
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       @mischievoustomato @kirby @asie @tehrealgh5tbusters Someone dropped an LLM generated program for Plan 9 on the mailing list a while ago so it definitely knows the C dialect + libraries.
       
 (DIR) Post #B41unDal0FvEXW7WSG by kirby@freerobuxextremist.com
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       @syzygy @asie @mischievoustomato @tehrealgh5tbusters wheeen will the first llm commit to base 9front happennnn
       
 (DIR) Post #B41vF7EwDGP8wpDWd6 by syzygy@dsmc.space
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       @kirby @asie @mischievoustomato @tehrealgh5tbusters A lot of the developers don't seem to like AI (I don't pull updates anymore (I hate the antichrist))
       
 (DIR) Post #B42UE28nBNzZEtYu5A by lnl@screaminginsi.de
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       @asie @eris as with probably any SaaS, free tiers, trials and cheap plans are more or less generous when they launch. And there's lots of indirect offering for access to these models.
       
 (DIR) Post #B42UE2JmWWmZmyhgDA by asie@mk.asie.pl
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       @lnl@screaminginsi.de @eris@p.enes.lv I have seen very few projects actually opt for Copilot instead of Claude/Codex, which until recently did not have a free access program.I can only think of two I have interacted with, and both do not really do "agentic programming" or direct inclusion of LLM code - rather, they use Copilot as a code review tool, picking up issues and proposing simple bugfixes, at most for writing testing boilerplate.
       
 (DIR) Post #B42ZFDLzTj724l7Mh6 by dzwiedziu@mastodon.social
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       @asie“Illuminant” and “accelerant” so a fire accelerant? :thonking:
       
 (DIR) Post #B42ZFDjO4jpNFK43A8 by asie@mk.asie.pl
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       @dzwiedziu@mastodon.social that's one way to look at it for sure