Post B49AhUnurPfFDhgLJI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) More posts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) Post #B4998iWPlaZNfvLe1Q by eltonfc@bertha.social
2026-03-11T03:59:24Z
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
(DIR) Post #B499cGDdYo5kaCeW6C by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-03-11T11:41:30Z
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@eltonfc> Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this")This one, yes, I've always thought of them as giving the computer an instruction. What's intriguing is that in by second language, Te Reo Māori, a native speaker would probably think of it as a passive 'let this be done...' construction.I wonder if this says something about the culture behind modern English, or just our attitude towards computers.
(DIR) Post #B49AMTIJHLA8SLsCe0 by eltonfc@bertha.social
2026-03-11T04:08:10Z
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Iff English is your second language, how are these verbs tusually translated to *your* language in software interfaces?
(DIR) Post #B49AMUg68NmikQ0iMS by virtulis@loud.computer
2026-03-11T09:28:36Z
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@eltonfc oh, that's an interesting question. I never really thought about it and I think it... explains some things?Do I understand correctly, the question is whether I interpret "close" as "i want (the computer) to close the file" versus "computer, close the file"?Because now I realize i've never ever talked to a computer the way people talk to chatbots and maybe that's one of the reasons it feels really weird. Well, in addition to all those other reasons.So yeah, infinitive in every case and every language for me. I'm communicating a desire for a thing to be done, not giving orders.Edit: and yeah, at least in Latvian and Russian it is and always was infinitive. Saglabāt, сохранить, etc. Never even crossed my mind it's completely ambiguous in English.
(DIR) Post #B49AMWFaHvlTclcZJQ by virtulis@loud.computer
2026-03-11T09:47:09Z
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@eltonfc and for some verbs imperative makes no sense to me at all.Surely, when I click "rename file" the actual command is "present me with an input field to enter a new name"? I'm the one doing the renaming. The stupid piece of metal is just logging my actions to the best of its ability.
(DIR) Post #B49AMXOq10lFBkxTNI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-03-11T11:49:46Z
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@virtulis > I'm the one doing the renamingYou're *requesting* that it be renamed. If the silicon wafer doesn't make the right electrons flip about, that name isn't going to change, whatever you might have to say about it.This is true if you issue the instruction in assembly, or even pure binary. It's an invocation to a nonhuman agent system, not an action (although typing in the binary is an action).@eltonfc
(DIR) Post #B49AhUnurPfFDhgLJI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-03-11T11:53:40Z
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BTW this is a great example of how languages aren't just neutral containers for meaning. They encode philosophies, which become implicit in what's being said.This becomes obvious to fluent speakers of 2 or more languages, but is often invisible to the monolingual. Even to those who've learn a bit of vocab and a few stock phrases in other languages (eg I'd like a beer, where is the toilet, bring me the bill).#philosophy #language #semiotics
(DIR) Post #B49BYbsNIWsEV85twW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-03-11T12:03:14Z
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@mattdm> I wonder how much this has to do with growing up with command-line interfaces vs graphical onesGreat point! I started using and programming computers before graphical OS interfaces were really a thing (first computer was a Commodore 64).A CLI command means I dictate a step, the computer performs it, and programming as; I dictate a series of step, the computer performs them, in the given order. The imperative is right there in the word "command". @virtulis @eltonfc
(DIR) Post #B49DgOXIyk5LLy4x1M by MusicologyHippo@hcommons.social
2026-03-11T12:27:00Z
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@strypey @mattdm @virtulis @eltonfc This is a really good point--I started out entirely in GUI environments and only a few years later started using CLIs. I do think about GUI buttons as infinitives and CLI as imperative (though, as a native speaker, the main reason why I think about the grammatical difference is because of taking second languages--perhaps the reason why I think the way I do is because la.wikipedia.org uses infinitives).
(DIR) Post #B49FYTBW0lzFMWEfke by tusharhero@mathstodon.xyz
2026-03-11T12:48:07Z
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@eltonfc I have simply never used computer interfaces with my native language, so I can't say.
(DIR) Post #B49Vp6AKRpEy9vdER6 by seaborgium1234@mastodon.social
2026-03-11T15:49:47Z
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What if some thoughts exist beyond words, waiting for a language not yet invented to give them form? Perhaps silence holds entire unwritten philosophies.
(DIR) Post #B4AG2ocd4Cexh7Lcsi by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2026-03-12T00:28:19Z
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@eltonfc funny thing is, in Polish, even if they tried to make it infinitive - eg. "Zapisać" - it could still be interpreted as imperative, just more formal / military-style.But no, they translate it as "Zapisz", which is the friendly / direct type of imperative.
(DIR) Post #B4BRU3PNUdNG1fIgvg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-03-12T14:11:09Z
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@seaborgium1234 > Perhaps silence holds entire unwritten philosophiesI think it does, yes. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive of course ; )
(DIR) Post #B4BReP79e4GKF3iCem by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-03-12T14:13:01Z
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@seaborgium1234 > Perhaps silence holds entire unwritten philosophiesI think it does, yes. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive of course ; )It's probably the taoist/ Buddhist influence on my thinking, but I tend to think there is a void beneath the experiential surfaces of the world that contains all potential, including both written *and* unwritten philosophies.