Post B1yYRefoRw7ZeKrvLk by jhavok@mstdn.party
(DIR) More posts by jhavok@mstdn.party
(DIR) Post #B1yQcZh0Vc2Pkp7iFs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T11:46:03Z
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In the most general sense who is *more* likely to remember and hold to account a famous person who cheats on their committed partner having been transparently dishonest with them about the nature of that long term commitment?(I'm trying to tease out the concept of dishonestly and breaking promises in relationships from "family values" which is a loaded phrase.)
(DIR) Post #B1yQk8muQMQkcwUY4G by rightsprung@c.im
2026-01-05T11:47:23Z
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@futurebird * sound of my brain exploding *What a great question.
(DIR) Post #B1yR7pLOMqH1Gzuocq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T11:51:42Z
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My perception is that across the left including liberals relationship fidelity isn't talked about much but "cheaters" are punished by the public with more consistency and less likely to *ever* be forgiven. On the right you hear about "family values" all the time, and one would think that a "cheater" would be in big trouble ... but... it just doesn't really matter that much to them.A gay liberal politician who *dishonestly* cheat on his husband would lose more support than a right winger.
(DIR) Post #B1yRHrI1zJAOCh7uk4 by davep@infosec.exchange
2026-01-05T11:53:30Z
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@futurebird Frankly, it's a personal thing and nothing to do with us, unless there's rank hypocrisy involved.I may have been in France too long...
(DIR) Post #B1yRZyWjopCJrVe14q by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T11:56:47Z
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This also wouldn't happen if it wasn't "real cheating" eg. it was an open relationship.Nonetheless the left loooooves little cake topper couples in every variety. (gay ones too) and is endlessly confused by the trainwrecks that go by without comment all over the right.
(DIR) Post #B1yRj4JRg3gSPblMf2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T11:58:26Z
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@davep Yeah you've been in France too long. They really do not care and I guess I'm a nebby and puritanical American.
(DIR) Post #B1yS0EawhXtPE08Meu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T12:01:30Z
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@Zumbador Those things will always be factors. Think of all of the "imagine of Obama did this" statements. What is that really saying?
(DIR) Post #B1yS7bGApdonXuvjEG by keira_reckons@aus.social
2026-01-05T12:02:48Z
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@futurebird I have no idea, because I do think it depends on the individuals involved and how endearing they are (charisma mixed with various privileges). That said, if you are correct, I wonder if it's about how values are expressed? The right tends to do values through exclusion and oppression of others, so they don't have to actually live them themselves day to day. The left is all about performing values directly in your own life, even if it's inffectual for making broader change.
(DIR) Post #B1ySSxsZvdEhmR55uK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T12:06:43Z
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Personally I think everyone has bright red lines of morality with respect to relationships. The right likes to describe the left has having no such lines but it really isn't true. They are just lines based on a different set of values. The left wing values are centered around concepts like consent, honesty and being true to yourself.Right wing values are centered around supporting and doing your best to fit within expected social norms and not confusing people by being "abnormal."
(DIR) Post #B1ySpYrd6JvWrCPcR6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T12:10:42Z
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@Anke I think everyone will amplify these feeling if you already don't like the person. But consider if our new left wing mayor of NYC were IDK caught with some hookers. I think it'd be a huge disaster for him! And not just because the right would make a huge deal about it. Large portions of his base would flip out... because he's married. And we think that's so cute and he would have RUINED it. (if he weren't married nobody would care as much)
(DIR) Post #B1ySq5cBKmB6QqRFRI by paco@infosec.exchange
2026-01-05T12:10:48Z
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@futurebird The difference, in my opinion, is the notion of authority/hierarchy. That is a really strong value for right-leaning folks. There are times, it seems, when it overrides something like fairness/truth.Sometimes one cannot uphold truth without violating authority. That seems to be a conflict that resolves in favor of authority a lot for the right and rarely on the left.The left has famously very little regard for authority unless truth, justice, fairness, etc are all upheld. The left values fairness and truth above all else.So liberal folks tend to be less conflicted about what to do when an important person violates fairness, truth, justice, etc.
(DIR) Post #B1ySz6Q7hzgFXK60ki by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T12:12:32Z
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@paco This is a really good point. "no passes for the powerful" is also a value.
(DIR) Post #B1yT2HMjTF1QLr1aJk by goldfish@mastodon.green
2026-01-05T12:13:04Z
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@futurebird I'm sure this varies by culture and over time, but in the UK, this matters more on the left (but perhaps not all that much?). My perception is that in the 90s, here at least, it mattered more on the right who were pushing "family values" nonsense hard and it backfired in a big way.
(DIR) Post #B1yTMTZRnn6pzqbPxQ by ersatzmaus@mastodon.social
2026-01-05T12:16:36Z
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@futurebird It's more about in-group vs out-group for the right, I think. If you are "one of us" then excuses will be made/it won't matter/etc. That happens on the left too, but since the left is almost invariably more fractious and splintered the shielding effect is a lot less significant.
(DIR) Post #B1yTOvk02LrjwahzVY by DaveMWilburn@infosec.exchange
2026-01-05T12:17:11Z
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@futurebird Right wing social norms strongly disincentivize confronting infidelity. Women who are cheated on find themselves without a support network if shameful behavior within their family group comes to light. Divorce is considered a sin, far worse than infidelity. Women are expected to tolerate and forgive endless bad behavior from their spouses, but forgiveness for the male in-group isn't extended towards the out-group, which is where divorced women and single mothers find themselves. And the role of women tends to be economically and socially dependent on their husbands.
(DIR) Post #B1yTV1vPxPbGrSxRmi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T12:18:18Z
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@DaveMWilburn So a lot of this might just be the sexism. As is often the case it seems.
(DIR) Post #B1yUdQoxNZ2SLSVQEC by alberto_cottica@mastodon.green
2026-01-05T12:30:59Z
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@futurebird not sure. Part of the concept of "liberal" is supposed to be "we don't want to know about your private life, just give us your public policies". Even if you did want to assess a politician from the point of view of how good a romantic partner he or she is, making an informed, nuanced judgment on someone's relationship morality based on media reports is likely impossible.
(DIR) Post #B1yV1eYDyy7HsWEGg4 by Bumblefish@mastodon.scot
2026-01-05T12:35:22Z
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@futurebird I dunno, my lines are kind of fuzzy grey-pink and frayed around the edges. Humans gonna human, y'know?
(DIR) Post #B1yVuSsx3ZjDco3nkG by toerror@mastodon.gamedev.place
2026-01-05T12:45:16Z
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@futurebird @DaveMWilburn I'd suggest the normalization and acceptance of narcissistic behaviour because of the focus on success and self image that accompanies it.Don't challenge the boss if you want to get ahead. Abslutely the case in every work place I've seen. Right wing society is just another work place. Prejudice may come as a product, but I don't personally beleive it's the cause.
(DIR) Post #B1yYRefoRw7ZeKrvLk by jhavok@mstdn.party
2026-01-05T13:13:40Z
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@futurebird The right is all about authority, and authority means the man is in charge. So if the husband cheats, "boys will be boys" but if the wife cheats, she's defying authority.
(DIR) Post #B1yZll6kKu3RLqcJ04 by sovietfish@todon.eu
2026-01-05T13:28:30Z
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@futurebird I think another set of complicating factors (which leads me to be unsure how to vote in your poll): commitment to the truth/"placing faith in exposure" is a quality the left has a lot more than the right does, these days. "The truth will out" and all that. Emphasis on reservation of judgment until facts can be verified, but also some ruthlessness in their devaluing of privacy for public figures accused of wrongdoing.The opposing narrative used on the right is (nominally) the need for strong leaders to have their authority respected, e.g. "you may not agree with everything he does in his personal life but nonetheless we need a man like him at the helm right now" (note the lack of gender neutrality). This sticks out to me because the hierarchicality of it jives poorly with my anarchism. In any event the right's objection can feel very sideways to me, like a bit of a genre error. It's a bit like trying to argue with a character in Severance about something their counterpart-self did on the other side of the divide (I am sorry to invoke this show b/c I never watched it; apologies if I'm getting the terminology wrong). They're compartmentalizing personal morality out of the picture, but only for (usually exclusively male) leaders.
(DIR) Post #B1ycXBkbIQuDV90Cem by kali@discuss.systems
2026-01-05T13:59:29Z
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@futurebird the way right wingers think about women explains all of this i think.
(DIR) Post #B1yfVjUx9V1dS1gGoa by llewelly@sauropods.win
2026-01-05T14:32:53Z
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@futurebird in right-wing circles, keeping promises is very much a one-way street; keeping promises made to those higher up in the hierarchy is required, but for those high up in the hierarchy, the freedom to break promises to underlings for the most trivial of whims is the entire point of having power; a right-winger who can't burn his underlings for the silliest of reasons does not have a place in the hierarchy, by definition.
(DIR) Post #B1ygvMAEd9e8Z4lwJM by australopithecus@mastodon.social
2026-01-05T14:48:41Z
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@futurebird I think that for the right, it depends on the gender and political alignment of the cheater: A conservative man will be forgiven and forgotten immediatelyA conservative woman will be forgiven after public shaming and performative religiosityA liberal man will never be forgiven, but it's not a huge deal unless politically expedientA liberal woman will never be forgiven Whereas I think for liberals it matters less, and is always a problem, but somewhere in the middle in severity
(DIR) Post #B1yjedUJGeeLEVsfAm by 20000lbs_of_Cheese@freeradical.zone
2026-01-05T15:19:16Z
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@futurebird going by the amount of people still watching movies and tv post-Epstein, I don't expect anyone to exhibit any morality when it comes to rich people/celebrity
(DIR) Post #B1yk25wbdLE29KIn8y by paco@infosec.exchange
2026-01-05T15:23:32Z
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@futurebird I didn't invent this idea. I got this from Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind.Like so many other models (Myers-Briggs, "Love Languages"), it crudely simplifies something super complicated (moral philosophy) into a few axes and then discusses how they interact. But I found it a useful lens, especially for introspecting my own moral philosophy.
(DIR) Post #B1yl6YFWRCO934q4cy by amorphophalex@mastodon.social
2026-01-05T15:35:29Z
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@futurebird dunno about cheating specifically since I tune out gossip about the personal lives of famous people. But my impression is that right wingers will "care" about the personal failings of a leftist politician so that they can lord it over leftists, but they shrug it off when it happens on their side. It's the same as when they "care" about women's sports, bathroom safety, unborn children, child sex trafficking, etc where women & children are just a wedge to use for attacking other groups
(DIR) Post #B20Si1treNswuUmn1U by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-06T11:18:51Z
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I was thinking about this post and I think I was remiss to not mention the class angle to all of this. We did talk a bit about how the *very* powerful and wealthy (men) may get a free pass for infidelity. But, also sometimes a family is "messed up" because there isn't enough money to get married, get divorced, move out, move in etc. Sometimes when I've seen people grousing about Sarah Palin's extended family it feels a little ... classiest. IDK.
(DIR) Post #B20Sx7TfCD58YHj58K by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-01-06T11:21:32Z
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OMG these people are so trashy WHY don't they just... get another house. WHY don't they enroll the bored and unruly child in some... activities?Though. Maybe Mrs. Palin could have gotten another house.
(DIR) Post #B20TPJswepw58szxDs by dnkboston@apobangpo.space
2026-01-06T11:26:08Z
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@futurebird I'd care because that would look like part of the class exploitation he's campaigned against. @Anke
(DIR) Post #B20TPtx6Yqeb0DDmhk by ptmesis@writing.exchange
2026-01-06T11:26:38Z
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@futurebird My impression is that left-leaning people are more likely to hold people to account for moral transgression over a long time. However, that is balanced out by the fact that left-leaning people will (on average) see cheating as more of a morally gray thing, personal issue, love is love, difficult to establish the guilty party, artifact of an overly rigid system of family values, etc. So it probably balances out.
(DIR) Post #B21lDzKZPQtnauwSm0 by KanaMauna@sauropods.win
2026-01-07T02:21:02Z
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@futurebird i’d say it’s a wash but for different reasons. The Left is more inclined to let personal matters staystay personal, even if that was wrong (ex. Bill & Hillary). The right is more inclined to be hypocritical (Bill vs Donald).