Post B1IRgBvuScbc4QJJoG by rhelune@todon.eu
(DIR) More posts by rhelune@todon.eu
(DIR) Post #B1HnhsDSk4wLKelgMy by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:12:08Z
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Can you help me brainstorm some thorny "AI Ethics Puzzles"These are little scenarios meant to act as a starting point in discussions about the ethics of AI. I will post some examples in response to this post, but I'd love to find some even more thorny ones. Ideally a puzzle shouldn't have a totally obvious solution when presented to people with a wide range of views. Make up something, or share what you have encountered. #callForHelp #AI #ethics #AIEthics
(DIR) Post #B1Hnlf8dJ7i3vjJdy4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:12:49Z
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PUZZLE 1An artist discovers that someone is selling copies of his work on etsy. The artist draws simple, but popular cartoon characters. The etsy shop is selling custom tee-shirts that feature these characters but they have put them in new poses and added funny quotes. When the artist complains the seller says that they used Midjourney to make the characters. What is likely to happen?What should happen?
(DIR) Post #B1HnoFr9lGOSO9NSa0 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:13:19Z
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PUZZLE 2A popular Star Wars fanfiction author is accused of using a LLM to generate their newest chapters but the author says they *did not* use an LLM. A popular LLM “detector” says there is a 70% chance that the new chapter is AI generated. What is likely to happen?What should happen?
(DIR) Post #B1HnpkMXpEALI8lpHE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:13:35Z
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PUZZLE 3A student types her essay without assistance, but then puts it into an LLM to “improve spelling and grammar” most of the changes the LLM makes are small. Her teacher is a bit suspicious at the sudden improvement in the sophistication of her sentences and asks her if she used an LLM.What is likely to happen?What should happen?
(DIR) Post #B1HntQcNB4IhDFvgbQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:14:14Z
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PUZZLE 4A student needs a new logo for an after school club. She uses an LLM to generate several ideas based on the name and topic of the club. She redraws these in a computer graphics program making a few refinements to the ideas from the LLM. Later that year she wins an award for her logo design beating several students who used no AI help. What is likely to happen?What should happen?
(DIR) Post #B1Ho8iuDSxrIH7ZK1w by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:16:59Z
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@futurebird I know the popular LLM-detector and the LLMs are effectively created by entities of the same ilk, and yet, I don't know the answer to either question.
(DIR) Post #B1HoGusKqaCNiOazcu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:18:29Z
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@llewelly I think "LLM detectors" are useless for this kind of thing. But that's just my personal take at this point. LLM detectors may serve a purpose in helping to clean up spam, and webrot but beyond that? I think they are kind of like a lie detector test.
(DIR) Post #B1HoQX2uIcmuhm7qqm by tshirtman@mas.to
2025-12-15T22:20:12Z
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@futurebird likely: A lot of angry emails, probably nothing changes, *maybe* etsy gives in to reclamations and remove the products.should: If the work is considered parody, it could maybe continue to be sold just like currently, if it's considered derivative it should be removed, a court should find out (but it probably won't).
(DIR) Post #B1HoWpHxO0Yd1OANSC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:21:21Z
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@tshirtman Hard agree. And if that doesn't happen the creator should produce the *exact* same product and sell it themselves (but with a "genuine" mark) and dare them to do anything about it.
(DIR) Post #B1HohXYZeaO3DD31Xc by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:23:16Z
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@futurebird to me, it's not ethical to use the LLM-detectors, for the same reasons it isn't ethical to use the LLMs to generate the fiction. Both uphold the same hideous power structure. But I have no idea whether the author did use an LLM, or what "ought" to happen to them, and I also don't know what people are likely to do.
(DIR) Post #B1HovVOEVSg2Xurzea by sy@mastodon.nz
2025-12-15T22:25:41Z
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@futurebird What is likely to happen depends on the policy of the institution and the specific instructions the student was given for the assessment. If they were told they can use an LLM to help with grammar it's fine, if there was a strcit no AI policy for the assessment it's not. What should happen is a bigger question about AI, the environment, copyright infringement etc. but given how quickly many education institutions have embraced AI, it seems unfair to penalise students if they've been explicitly told they can do something (and most of their peers will so they will likely be disadvantaged if they choose not to).
(DIR) Post #B1HowDKX8ZrUpBTezo by tshirtman@mas.to
2025-12-15T22:25:55Z
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@futurebird likely: fans tear at each others, the author is on the receiving side of a lot of abuse, people who made the accusations too, we never know the truth.should: people shouldn't throw accusations around like this, the detector is shit, if it was good, the LLM would use it to improve by adversarial training and beat it. Is the fanfic good? Do people like it? I don't think anything else should matter here.
(DIR) Post #B1Hozn4EiwjaWvYmPo by CuriousMagpie@beige.party
2025-12-15T22:26:32Z
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@futurebird you've probably addressed this with your students already - when I taught professional ethics, my students often confused law and ethics ( eg what should happen)
(DIR) Post #B1Hp0yASwE5nFO2HlA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:26:39Z
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@wakame Good idea to have one about self-reinforcing "therapy" loops. I'd like to work another person into this one. Maybe someone they show it to in order to prove that they are being mistreated?
(DIR) Post #B1Hp4qL3zLAo7kq8bA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:27:29Z
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@tshirtman " Is the fanfic good? Do people like it? I don't think anything else should matter here."YUP.
(DIR) Post #B1Hp6Nc1lOBrbsVWjI by DevWouter@mastodon.social
2025-12-15T22:27:44Z
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@futurebird @rationaldoge Depends on the scoring criteria, how much is changed, and if the student was upfront/honest about the tools used. Most scoring criteria take into account how well the student can articulate the material.Since you wrote the teacher is suspicious we can assume doubts about the honesty and therefore we can assume the assumed scoring criteria would be insufficient. Assuming the student knows this we can assume the work is potential fraudulent.
(DIR) Post #B1HpQbkCvlq3ENylZw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:31:26Z
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@CuriousMagpie I really should not be teaching any ethics I'm just the math and CS teacher but these people want "AI Ethics Lessons" so. I will do my best. The "What is likely to happen?" question is depressing but needed.
(DIR) Post #B1HpUYegMFzeoCHJTs by tshirtman@mas.to
2025-12-15T22:32:08Z
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@futurebird likely: She honestly explains what she did, not sure about consequences.Should: the teacher gives feedback about if it's permissible use, give guidelines to class about LLM use because they know it's inevitable at this point, unless they do the essay in class, on controlled computers or paper. The teacher adjust work so having access to an LLM is not a magical solution (but it's **hard**), and make sure students learn to think better than the LLM does.
(DIR) Post #B1HpfG0a1iS8A6cfA0 by wowiamreallyamazed@mastodon.social
2025-12-15T22:34:02Z
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@futurebird I sometimes thesaurus every word, i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶o̶r̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶t̶y̶l̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶m̶i̶t̶t̶e̶d̶.̶ Perchance on the occasion that the metamorphosis are truly that subordinate & trifling, then nay malfeasance, sparing supplementary panache, betide.
(DIR) Post #B1Hphp5Ma7knWz5EBs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:34:18Z
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@frank This is also a good idea. It's not like the questions here are "new" they are just surrounded by new contexts and might be hard to recognize for what they are.
(DIR) Post #B1Hpxb8iCTXiuaAiBs by tshirtman@mas.to
2025-12-15T22:37:20Z
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@futurebird likely: she gets accused of using AI whether it's true or not.should: well, i don't think there is much wrong about that, the AI is a tool that exist, we should expect people to use it, if the result is deemed superior, it's justification in itself. Especially as she didn't just take the idea, but improved upon it, and mastered the techniques to create it. Others decided to participate without using all the available tools, it's on them, unless it was part of the rules.
(DIR) Post #B1Hq6j1WG063yB9xYm by graydon@canada.masto.host
2025-12-15T22:39:01Z
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@futurebird There aren't any such problems.AI costs more and does worse than any available alternative including not doing the thing at all.(The tiny number of really hard practical stats problems where this isn't true, they get violent if you try to call what they're doing AI.)
(DIR) Post #B1HqUZBYUEKIPJDqOu by Samosthenurus@aus.social
2025-12-15T22:43:18Z
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@futurebird an English as a second language speaker uses AI to help make a cover letter for a job at an English speaking company, but in a role requiring very little written English. The company explains they have a strong anti AI policy and for that they must justify their actions.
(DIR) Post #B1HqhKWUJQ4KhI6ELY by CuriousMagpie@beige.party
2025-12-15T22:45:35Z
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@futurebird I think it's brilliant - you're teaching them to think.
(DIR) Post #B1HqpKJWyOQ2Mjqt0q by CuriousMagpie@beige.party
2025-12-15T22:47:04Z
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@futurebird btw - did you see this re AI ethics?https://mastodon.green/@gerrymcgovern/115721946504717925
(DIR) Post #B1Hqy8VoDofEMvnOxE by thesquirrelfish@sfba.social
2025-12-15T22:48:41Z
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@futurebird should people be allowed to use an AI for their job applications and interviews?
(DIR) Post #B1HrBLBaPc7hRNdJdg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:51:00Z
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@ireneista This is a good one. The more innocent it seems at first glance the better.
(DIR) Post #B1HrV6Pn2WMHQAhSLo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T22:54:39Z
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@ireneista I think to make it more relatable I might shift it to:A teacher uses an LLM to help her turn lists of things she's noticed about her students work into paragraphs for the yearly report. She always reads these after they are generated and says she "makes changes if needed."This year twice as many students were flagged for "extra summer work" as a result of her reports. The teacher wonders if the LLM has something to do with it but isn't certain.What will...what should etc. etc.
(DIR) Post #B1HrcWyQh3OHooRcCu by Homempovo@ursal.zone
2025-12-15T22:55:57Z
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@futurebird PUZZLE 5A communist world lives peacefully under the motto "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". There's no State, no money, no private property over means of production, no use for intellectual property. All knowledge is, thus, shared to everyone, all ingenuity benefits equally all the people. No artist starves, and everyone gets to access all the art that is produced.Then someone comes up with an LLM to handle, tweak and extrapolate all the knowledge and art databases.What is likely to happen?What should happen?P. s. I'm not even particularly interested in the answers, I guess I'm just trying to point out that we're again fighting technological development because it enhances capitalism, and here resides our problem.
(DIR) Post #B1Hs3ER1jCdc8lYK3M by fuzzychef@m6n.io
2025-12-15T23:00:24Z
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@futurebird Likely: If the artist is legally or social media savvy, and can make C&D letters or a media campaign happen, the shirts will get blocked, only to reappear on a less accessible site. If they are not, they will complain a lot but nothing will change.Should: There's no fast answer here. The area of "style" or "character" copying is murky, and AI doesn't actually change it; it's still a total judgement call whether copying happened or not.
(DIR) Post #B1Hs4WNaUpQC5GYhnc by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2025-12-15T23:01:01Z
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@futurebird @tshirtman that's cuttingly smart 😁 and they've done all the marketing work too
(DIR) Post #B1HsBNuaNTLPqgGYjo by fuzzychef@m6n.io
2025-12-15T23:02:12Z
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@futurebird What class is the essay in?If it's in English, Composition, Persuasive Writing etc. it's a problem. If the essay is in some other topic, who cares?Also, what did the prof say about using LLMs at the start of class?
(DIR) Post #B1HsGeZHsPbaxJofRI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T23:03:14Z
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@fuzzychef This makes total sense ... but I could also see these distinctions being very confusing to a kid.
(DIR) Post #B1HsPynS2MNAIct8lM by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2025-12-15T23:04:54Z
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@futurebird it's going to depend on the institution... Universities I'm associated with have said it's OK for students to do this, as long as they disclose. Where I draw the line is getting the llm to generate the actual text, but - as your 2nd case study demonstrates - there's no ironclad way to pick up llm use unless you have good examples of "normal" work from the student.
(DIR) Post #B1HsUxTGOQpJdUoshE by fuzzychef@m6n.io
2025-12-15T23:05:44Z
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@futurebird Should Happen: Like the prior question: what is the contest's policy on using AI? If it's not prohibited, then it's legit, yes? If it is prohibited, she should give the prize back. If it's prohibited, though, the contest will need to think hard about what "AI" is.For one thing, it is very unlikely that the other students used no AI. Any of them that used Adobe tools used a host of enhancing ML, they just didn't use it for the *idea*.
(DIR) Post #B1HseMmvdLxulJVJmy by rlstone4dems@mastodon.social
2025-12-15T23:07:29Z
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@futurebird I mean, those AI generators are kind of generic, and really plain until you do some editing. So, I'll assume that the student did exactly that to the plain design. I would have liked to have seen the logo before the improvements were made, though. But, I'll trust her!
(DIR) Post #B1HsfVb0N9cAMtTIYq by fuzzychef@m6n.io
2025-12-15T23:07:39Z
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@futurebird No question, which is why, like calculators, computers, phones, Wikipedia, etc., the teachers should lay out clear rules at the beginning of the term.
(DIR) Post #B1Hskevb6SdAl8YkRk by fuzzychef@m6n.io
2025-12-15T23:08:35Z
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@futurebird BTW, thanks for posting these! This is fun and thought-provoking.
(DIR) Post #B1HsndmnnyWG5QrpvE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T23:09:11Z
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@cy "a teacher is using an ai detection program to check students essays"nooooooo nooooo nooo don't dooooo this.(I'm not being constructive but I'm going to die on the faculty lounge floor if I hear about one more teacher doing this. It's just going to make you suspicious. Use your brain. If you think it's "odd" talk to the kid maybe. Have a clear policy.... why why why)
(DIR) Post #B1HsoUwu995ky709Wi by rlstone4dems@mastodon.social
2025-12-15T23:09:17Z
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@futurebird So, I definitely think that they'll ask for the original logo. Hopefully the student will comply.
(DIR) Post #B1HtcTtWLEkyB2Fi08 by johntimaeus@infosec.exchange
2025-12-15T23:18:22Z
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@futurebird I think in almost all the puzzles presented the question is "how many of the principles outlined in the ACM Code of Ethics did this person violate?"
(DIR) Post #B1HuHdTtbSc3mZtHMm by electropict@mastodon.scot
2025-12-15T23:25:49Z
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@futurebird There have been many instances going back decades now of "artists" selling more or less straight copies of others' work on their websites. I don't see any reason why users of these image generators trained on others' work should be regarded any differently.
(DIR) Post #B1HuQAOX7De6B8Rxx2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-15T23:27:22Z
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@electropict Someone suggested writing parallel scenarios that raise the same issues, but without LLMs involved. I think this is also a good exercise. In theory ethics don't really change, or they change much more slowly than technology.
(DIR) Post #B1Hv0MfSxgXIfTdAtE by electropict@mastodon.scot
2025-12-15T23:33:45Z
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@futurebird You might also want to consider the situation of individuals or institutions who possess certain art works, which are centuries past any real copyright claims, claiming exclusive reproduction rights purely on the basis of possession. A slightly complicated issue...
(DIR) Post #B1HvVk1MBYjQ4bpcXo by OWOP@mastodon.world
2025-12-15T23:39:33Z
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@futurebird You may create a construct of vast knowledge and skills but it remains as it is, in its place in the moment, unable to access doors to realms available to you. But able to assist you to travel and manipulate anything within the mortal realm. **After a serious mistake Tommy had to get some enhancements. At school and on the playfield he could excel in every task but he had no friends. Dumb it down, the adults said, but that was hard to do.**What will we do?2 or 1+1
(DIR) Post #B1I2lTFH1WSEMDmwro by gdinwiddie@mastodon.social
2025-12-16T01:00:49Z
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@futurebird Such derivative works are copyright infringement no matter how they're produced.
(DIR) Post #B1I38rZGl80uS8IOLQ by gdinwiddie@mastodon.social
2025-12-16T01:05:04Z
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@futurebird What should happen is the teacher should ask for the original version, and have a conversation with the student about the changes. They can turn it into a learning experience.
(DIR) Post #B1INhDDUm2xKWZldk8 by semitones@tiny.tilde.website
2025-12-16T04:55:14Z
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@futurebird I had an organic low stakes one:PUZZLEYou ask for computer help on a forum. You get back a detailed and comprehensive post from a forum user about their personal experience on the subject.At the end, there is a disclaimer: "I used AI to help write this post, but I stand by everything it says."Do you "like" the forum post?What is the social meaning of "liking" a forum post?
(DIR) Post #B1IRgBvuScbc4QJJoG by rhelune@todon.eu
2025-12-16T05:39:58Z
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@futurebird @cy Ask them where m dash is on the keyboard.
(DIR) Post #B1ITTKiMhRHbRvyIuO by n_dimension@infosec.exchange
2025-12-16T06:00:03Z
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@futurebird @electropict There already is a "solution" to #genAI art.Its simple.You want ©️, it has to be created by a human.If it's created by a machine, no copyright.Hence if Corpos want to keep control and monetise their art. They need to retain a human artist.Win-win.Just need to propagate this to other jurisdictions.#regulateAI #creativeshttps://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/19/ai-art-cannot-be-copyrighted-appeals-court-rules.html
(DIR) Post #B1JjDlfsULpor6Msfg by Mikal@sfba.social
2025-12-16T20:31:16Z
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@futurebird @tshirtman I'm imagining the obvious: someone selling knock-off XKCD merch. "Slop Generator, make me some clever cartoons in the style of XKCD" or whatever prompt would be used. That is such blatant infringement that the person should be forced to immediately take the knockoff garbage down and to then hand over any profits to Randall. But is that likely? Maybe, after lots of work, as noted.The problem with out-scamming the scammers in this case is that it requires extra work to sell crap that would likely dilute and confuse the original artist's vibe/brand/cachet/style or whatever. And to be really effective, it would need to be sold cheaper than the knockoffs. Maybe that's fine as a revenge tactic for a financially secure artist, but for most it would require losing time and money on principle. Like, I couldn't out-scam someone making machine-generated copies of my photos and selling them, for multiple reasons. Ugh, I hate this so much.
(DIR) Post #B1JjQv6IkmEJr3zzVY by gretared@sfba.social
2025-12-16T20:33:39Z
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@futurebird full out monkey wrenching by any means possible