Post B0se4PtOMJ07eeUbs8 by zeank@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by zeank@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #B0sdxv0CILzO73Zr1s by murena@mastodon.social
2025-12-03T15:02:17Z
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👂 Pssst! Are you sure Big Tech isn’t listening to you? Follow our privacy tips to keep your personal information safe! #Privacy
(DIR) Post #B0sdxwqhQda1qB9IVE by brie@venera.social
2025-12-03T15:34:20Z
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#xmpp
(DIR) Post #B0sdxxm7z7W8iI1A12 by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-03T18:20:04Z
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@brie #xmpp is just a protocol, with what you say you are recommending any proprietary centralized implementation as well, including WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger IIRC? 🤔people want to use products/tools not a protocol, what runs in background doesn't matter@murena
(DIR) Post #B0se4PtOMJ07eeUbs8 by zeank@mastodon.social
2025-12-03T18:34:35Z
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@arcanechat @brie XMPP is also the name of a decentralized network (based on the protocol of the same name). It’s not a single product, so it leaves you with choices. This can be seen as good or bad.
(DIR) Post #B0se4RA5dhx5ajJSXQ by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-03T18:50:20Z
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@zeank bad, you need to give something people can type in their app store of choice and get a program installed, if the #xmpp community keeps having that #nerd mindset, xmpp will never get mainstream adoption but be a niche for techies, which is fine, but then I see some people promoting it when we are talking of replacing mainstream messengers@brie
(DIR) Post #B0se4SA7v3Zkh8L0Ea by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T18:56:21.327867Z
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@arcanechat @zeank @brie Been waiting 20 years for someone to make a cross-platform XMPP client that has equivalent features/UI on all platforms for XMPPIt has never existed except proprietary versions (iMessage, Whatsapp, etc)The XMPP community doesn't have the willpower to solve this problem, they're too focused on specs to develop a suitable mass-market enduser product
(DIR) Post #B0sfQQlhskwyhFxWaG by debacle@framapiaf.org
2025-12-03T19:00:01Z
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@zeank @arcanechat @brie More good than bad. If there is only a single product, it will never adapt to different needs and use cases. #DiversityIsStrength.
(DIR) Post #B0sfQSMxviLdf6OnIW by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-03T19:03:27Z
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@debacle if strength means poor usability UI/UX and being incompatible between clients, then yes, you are hulk @zeank @brie
(DIR) Post #B0sfWZfrgRf23T9jsG by debacle@framapiaf.org
2025-12-03T19:04:40Z
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@arcanechat @zeank @brieI'm sure, I'm able to write a Delta client, that has both horrible UX, and is incompatible to other clients.
(DIR) Post #B0sfWalvbO6ZSZ05xo by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-03T19:07:41Z
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@debacle yes, but still there is a flagship client that works in all platforms that I can point people to and ignore your shitty client, there is no such client in XMPP and this is the problem you guys have to solve, you need a main STABLE client with all features people expect working on all platforms with seamless experience, then go have fun building your XEP-lego client@zeank @brie
(DIR) Post #B0sfWc6AfbtLZdTm9g by debacle@framapiaf.org
2025-12-03T19:11:04Z
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@arcanechat @zeank @brie All platforms would be good. My platform:$ apt search deltachatSorting...Full Text Search...$ But, true, there is no "perfect" #Jabber client. I'm mainly on #Dino by @dino and #Gajim by @gajim. One for the A/V calls, the other for all other features.
(DIR) Post #B0sfWd318oxmW90lsW by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T19:12:37.855707Z
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@debacle @arcanechat @zeank @brie @dino @gajim Debian package repo is missing a ton of software, so what?You want to run DeltaChat on Debian? Here you go: https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-desktop/releases/tag/v2.25.3
(DIR) Post #B0sfoo1Z4MRdm001a4 by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-03T19:13:49Z
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@feld he knows he can run in Debian he just want to annoy with the missing package in official Debian repo which is a terrible idea for a security messenger@debacle @zeank @brie
(DIR) Post #B0sfoovDjQxqYc2TKa by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T19:15:57.863113Z
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@arcanechat @debacle @zeank @brie right because Debian freezes software for the entire release of the OS and only backports "security fixes" which wouldn't be possible to do for any software with a rapid development cycle for many reasons
(DIR) Post #B0shEZJQUSgBd1CcK0 by debacle@framapiaf.org
2025-12-03T19:18:55Z
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@feld @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie Debian is not missing any software, that is relevant to me. At least on my own PC. Before I try Delta, it needs to be in Debian, at least one of its various clients 🤷
(DIR) Post #B0shEaWE0MVlN0CLuS by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T19:31:48.934493Z
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@debacle @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie You don't understand how Debian works then.As soon as DeltaChat requires a version of Rust that isn't in Debian, it's game over. Debian will never upgrade their version of Rust so it can be packaged.DeltaChat currently requires Rust 1.82 and Electron 3.7Debian 12 only has Rust 1.63 Debian 13 has Rust 1.85 ... but no ElectronWhat you need is an OS that packages modern software. You'll never get that on Debian.
(DIR) Post #B0shpY6bwJtAbHqGC8 by debacle@framapiaf.org
2025-12-03T19:36:53Z
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@feld @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie I hope, there are other clients, maybe at least one not written in Rust? Ideally, one that runs in #Emacs. I'm really missing a modern chat client in Emacs, as #jabberEl is too outdated. (Need to try #ementEl, the Matrix client, again.)
(DIR) Post #B0shpZPR5oXcdxeoAy by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T19:38:30.124597Z
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@debacle @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie it has to be Rust, the core crypto code is all in Rust
(DIR) Post #B0si4eSyZZvwfhVL0K by debacle@framapiaf.org
2025-12-03T19:40:13Z
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@feld @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brieI guess, it's all standardized (OpenPGP, autocrypt, SMTP, IMAP...) so it shouldn't be too hard having multiple, independent implementations in whatever programming language?
(DIR) Post #B0si4fx92tezHYcwfQ by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T19:41:13.894075Z
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@debacle @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie there is only ONE good safe audited PGP library and it's the Rust one that's being used. It also has features that none of the other PGP implementations have which are required for additional metadata privacy.These decisions were not made lightly.
(DIR) Post #B0siKVGCZInSkk5W4G by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T19:44:06.885089Z
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@debacle @arcanechat @brie @dino @gajim @zeank you're also missing that the Rust core is everything:SMTPIMAPPGP and other cryptothe ability to do SMTP/IMAP over HTTPSthe user accounts/profiles and all message storage in the SQLite database schema using key-based identity not email basedAll of this is tightly integrated for a reason.You can build a new UI, you can write a JSON-RPC bridge so you can use DeltaChat in Emacs if you want. But you cannot replace this Rust core. No matter what the Rust core has to exist.
(DIR) Post #B0ss3JfzNqOvRbaq4e by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-03T21:29:24Z
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@feld the #xmpp enthusiast mentality, create another delta chat client from scratch re-implementing everything instead of focusing energy in a shared effort, that is why #DeltaChat, an #email client had proper message replies with jump-to-quote, emoji reactions, stickers support, etc. before 99% the xmpp clients out thereblame google for "embrace and extinguish" but the worse enemy of xmpp is its own community @debacle @zeank @brie
(DIR) Post #B0ss3KYE8Bmo9oy9c8 by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-03T21:33:02.938447Z
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@arcanechat @debacle @zeank @brie you build protocols to solve problems for developers, you build platforms to solve problems for people
(DIR) Post #B0uZ6P2CPOb47OeyDA by nicoco@pouet.pas.la
2025-12-04T08:40:24Z
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@feld you are telling @debacle that he does not understand how debian works but he is a debian maintainer and developer. That's pretty funny ^^
(DIR) Post #B0uZ6PxGzCFayPMYAi by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-04T17:10:05.279847Z
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@nicoco @debacle that was supposed to be the funny partsigned,a FreeBSD maintainer who thinks Debian is the only Linux distro worth using on servers
(DIR) Post #B0uZbu70udt1TsvtMO by nicoco@pouet.pas.la
2025-12-04T08:46:40Z
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@arcanechat @debacle I have had some success in pointing people to https://quicksy.im/ for "consistent branding between iOS and Android".But I think that some basic computing knowledge (what is a app/a client, a service provider, a protocol…) is the only way for tech be empowering. People are not stupid. Big Tech has many incentive to keep people in the dark. We can do better.I have nothing against delta chat BTW, an I think @Goffi is building a DC/XMPP gateway.
(DIR) Post #B0uZbuyBiwQA8noMF6 by feld@friedcheese.us
2025-12-04T17:15:49.162271Z
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@nicoco @arcanechat @debacle @Goffi > I think that some basic computing knowledge [...] is the only way for tech be empowering.To YOU this is basic computer knowledge. To anyone else, it might as well particle physics. This is the problem with people so deep into tech, they can't view the world from a perspective outside their bubble.So what other required human skills should they throw away to learn these skills? Consider that at a bare minimum you're suggesting they spend hundreds to a few thousand hours learning the technology and terminology and the historical foundations of this computing paradigm so they have a grasp on what all this means and why they should do it. You're asking people to trade time spent doing something else and to do this instead.If you want to empower people you need to strive to make the technology simple, self explanatory, and reliable. You've already given up on that.
(DIR) Post #B0uvo4QyYkh3xcTb8a by Goffi@mastodon.social
2025-12-04T10:57:13Z
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@nicoco @arcanechat @debacle I'm actually building an email <=> XMPP gateway. Delta Chat is a nice side effect, but not the main goal. We can even say "have built" as the project is done, but there are still improvements to do.
(DIR) Post #B0uvo5gbu6nHqOnb96 by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-04T21:24:06Z
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@Goffi if it is just unencrypted #email then that is mostly useless for #DeltaChat besides there will be no proper federation of emoji reactions, stickers, etc @nicoco @debacle
(DIR) Post #B0vtYOpow9H1qgSOm0 by arcanechat@fosstodon.org
2025-12-04T21:26:58Z
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@feld leaving complexity measurement aside, i think the error is also into thinking everyone cares about computers, I don't care about how my refrigerator work, it might be super interesting for some people, but I don't want to waste time learning about it and how to tweak or use optimally, the same way people just want to communicate, plan a party, etc. not dive into some protocols and chat apps and being "empowered", life is extremely short!@debacle @Goffi @nicoco
(DIR) Post #B0vtYPu6xgIfAHTL6G by nicoco@pouet.pas.la
2025-12-05T08:33:39Z
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@arcanechat @feld @debacle @Goffi I have never said that everyone should care about computers. Having some knowledge about matters that affect everybody is a prerequisite of a functional democracy though.TBH I don't understand your aggressiveness here, I would be super happy if everyone moved away from WhatsApp and used delta chat. I prefer #XMPP but the nice thing about open protocols is that it's easy to make gateways between them. I know literally zero person that use deltachat though ATM.