Post AxLOONN6AlpnDFPYwa by lispi314@udongein.xyz
(DIR) More posts by lispi314@udongein.xyz
(DIR) Post #AxIHXK92G072eqH09Q by Edent@mastodon.social
2025-08-18T09:11:22Z
4 likes, 5 repeats
August 1st - Googler asks the community if XSLT should be removed from the HTML living standard.https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523Respondents overwhelmingly reject the suggestion.August 6th - Google starts work on removing XSLT from Chrome.https://issues.chromium.org/issues/435623334#comment4August 14th - Googler sends PR to remove XSLT from the standard.https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/11563Like, I don't have a particular view of whether this is a good idea or not. But these sham community engagement exercises piss me off.
(DIR) Post #AxIHXKslVygywffWQi by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2025-08-18T12:04:23.668695Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Edent @hokaze Perhaps the real answer is to:1) move away from Github2) remove Google from the list of contributors.
(DIR) Post #AxIHXLg2Ym6jPUisEa by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2025-08-18T12:05:23.884313Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@hokaze @Edent Google has demonstrated itself hostile to community decision making and should simply be removed.
(DIR) Post #AxIHXRDBywb4ZlGv6O by Edent@mastodon.social
2025-08-18T09:32:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
As a little bonus treat, here's an older discussion about Google removing XSLT from Blink.Most of the arguments (on both sides) remain the same.https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/zIg2KC7PyH0The date of that discussion? 2014!
(DIR) Post #AxIIKCsA5EaAIEgp9s by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2025-08-18T12:26:45.110335Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dalias @lispi314 @Edent @hokaze True that said I'm not sure WHATWG really has a consensus building process, case in point the last few comments being marked off-topic and then discussion locked while they point that libxslt has a lack of maintenance.What I see is Google effectively answering "Fuck off" to the "Fuck you pay me" of libxslt maintainer, and WHATWG (mostly Google but not only) supporting that.
(DIR) Post #AxIN3fZUczne9ItKeu by JessTheUnstill@infosec.exchange
2025-08-18T13:18:08Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
But hard forks are rarely effective. The number of prominent forks that actually became more successful that the original weren't from Sun Microsystems is ... Not very many tbh.@krutonium @lanodan @dalias @Edent @hokaze @lispi314
(DIR) Post #AxINLy72QoR4rjJ8Ns by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2025-08-18T13:23:03.089833Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JessTheUnstill @krutonium @dalias @Edent @hokaze @lispi314 Well after all monopolies are a big political or even legal problem.Forks don't work against monopolies both because they're a small social tool that's weak against upstream or peer pressure.And to go against monopolies you'd more need to regroup than split up.
(DIR) Post #AxIPBKZ2oekjDmSjlg by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2025-08-18T13:43:35.122363Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@krutonium @purple @Edent @JessTheUnstill @dalias @lispi314 @hokaze Which makes me wonder, why even call to support it if it's busted? It puts the bar worse than on the floor.Also always kind weird to me to see calls for servo.org but not also webkitgtk.org given they're both from Igalia, sure webkit means like ~70% of committers being Apple and so we shouldn't depend on it too much but it's also one you can daily-drive now.
(DIR) Post #AxIRtg2KXkf4SzQzw0 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2025-08-18T14:14:00.301588Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dalias @phl @JessTheUnstill @krutonium @Edent @hokaze @lispi314 Which is rather ironic when Chromium is one where they only took some bits from WebKit rather than something more like a normal fork.btw your car analogy is kind of funny, electric cars don't have sparkplugs. That said it does reminds me that parts of Firefox codebase like WebRTC is from Chromium.
(DIR) Post #AxIkuCqkRWiZMcyztw by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2025-08-18T17:46:53.307834Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@oblomov @dalias @Edent @hokaze @lispi314 As far as I can tell WHATWG is steered by Apple, Google, Microsoft, Mozilla.https://github.com/whatwg/sg#steering-group-representativesAnd given M$ is still there, independent implementation doesn't matters.
(DIR) Post #AxJFc0c6INvWmRvzZg by alcinnz@floss.social
2025-08-18T20:35:45Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Edent I've attended a couple of these, & in both cases I have been able to use my knowledge to frame myself as the optimistic one.But when I don't see the conclusions reflecting the discussions I heard... It doesn't encourage me to participate in others!
(DIR) Post #AxJUCw7tLAxww7J5xA by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2025-08-19T02:14:40.022282Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I forgot you could style your RSS feeds with XSLT.It's not a great engine, but it is kinda neat how it works, and honestly the move from XML to JSON kinda does suck in general. XML might have been more verbose, but you had richer datatypes, namespacing, it was easier to write strongly-typed marshallers and unmarshallers.Maybe Ladybird will get popular enough people will write Gemini, SFTP and Gopher extensions for it and we can bring back the web we lost.
(DIR) Post #AxJUESbE5kHfwJkqjA by Edent@mastodon.social
2025-08-18T12:15:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lispi314 @hokaze Removed from *what*?It is their browser. They can do what they like with it.
(DIR) Post #AxJUETkTopHRVJ5kn2 by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2025-08-18T12:25:14.896349Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Edent @hokaze It's a living standard.They're free to publish their own bullshit standard no one acknowledges and have their browser implement it.I'm suggesting forking the publishing of the standard and ignoring anything Google does from this point onward.
(DIR) Post #AxJULrfhGxadj6NOvA by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2025-08-19T02:16:17.052346Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
It shouldn't be. It's sad the rest of the Internet has thrown in with either fucking Blink/Chromium or Webkit/Safari. Gecko is dying and Google removed the core ability of writing extensions to control web requests. You know Mozilla the "ad company" will be next with this bullshit.
(DIR) Post #AxJUqcy3zUO56IdUo4 by Edent@mastodon.social
2025-08-18T12:26:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lispi314 OK. And how will you convince Apple and Mozilla to follow your fork?The reason the three of them separated HTML from W3C is that they didn't want non-browser manufacturers dictating what could go in the standard.(I know, because I was a W3C rep at the time.)
(DIR) Post #AxJUqeDLMACixynDGK by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2025-08-18T12:35:05.635983Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Edent I don't know, though I do know that at the moment all three are part of the problem with effectively-proprietary unmaintainable browsers & web specs.So perhaps part of whatever workable solution is found should also exclude them at the same time.
(DIR) Post #AxKtdRjr7ZqCWOlIye by istvan@noauthority.social
2025-08-19T18:34:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @Edent I think they've dropped FTP too.
(DIR) Post #AxKtwkJKIKr9ckYWJM by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2025-08-19T18:37:47.255595Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Browsers dropped FTP ad LONG time ago, thought I think it made it longer than gopher.
(DIR) Post #AxKuSt05WQfnqDsnWS by bonifartius@qoto.org
2025-08-19T18:43:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @Edent i believed the "lol xml bad" bullshit for a long time and after i tried out xml with good tools i regretted all the json i used xD
(DIR) Post #AxLEP6pa9lyuf2RfHM by istvan@noauthority.social
2025-08-19T22:27:04Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @Edent FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS.
(DIR) Post #AxLJzILFKxFUYZKVwe by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2025-08-19T21:49:26.355987Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @Edent Supporting and promoting SXML would've considerably mitigated XML's verbosity and human-unfriendliness without any loss in capacity.
(DIR) Post #AxLJzJLHcIs9eyM3do by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2025-08-19T23:29:33.334284Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I haven't heard of SXML. I wonder what that looks li---oh (dear god! (It's (of full) LISP))!
(DIR) Post #AxLOONN6AlpnDFPYwa by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2025-08-19T23:39:09.192093Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @Edent (uwu)
(DIR) Post #AxQxIybtHAZ39eI4vI by hub@cosocial.ca
2025-08-22T16:37:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @dalias @Edent @hokaze @oblomov @lispi314 if you tell Apple "we'll remove something so you won't have to maintain it" they will say yes. Apple interest isn't the web. It's Apple.
(DIR) Post #AxQxJ05hlo0VkPFP28 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2025-08-22T16:43:36.645061Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hub @dalias @Edent @hokaze @oblomov @lispi314 Yeah although Apple probably wouldn't jump on breaking a bunch of webpages, specially podcast related ones.Google on the other hand has a pretty strong anti-trust style of incentive to, since breaking those can mean more people moving to their products.
(DIR) Post #AxQxeCnlhu0fFZy98y by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2025-08-22T16:47:28.749731Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hub @Edent @dalias @hokaze @lispi314 @oblomov That said you really feel the awful state of the web when the steering group is basically just… a mostly hardware company (Apple) which probably cares about as much about the web as say PDF, and then complete puppets of Google.