Post AwQ8eNmfXaHfqdRpQG by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
(DIR) More posts by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
(DIR) Post #AwBauJ4qguQhEFvy3k by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T08:59:50Z
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Well, I finally got around to evaluation the #ManageMyHealth portal;https://managemyhealth.co.nz/about-us/When my GP suggested I sign up with it, I presumed it was a public service offered by Te Whatu Ora, like My Health Record;https://www.tewhatuora.govt.nz/health-services-and-programmes/digital-health/my-health-recordSo what do I think of Manage My Health? Not impressed. This is a privately-owned, for-profit digital platform, that I can't be certain isn't #DataFarming patients who sign up with it.(1/?)#health #PublicHealth #HealthPortals
(DIR) Post #AwBbmLhf8xzL0jrGee by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:09:41Z
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Before I talk about the reasons why I think it's safer to assume platforms like Manage My Health are DataFarmers, let's zoom out a bit. A few years ago, I was talking to a friend who works in public health, about how health information store-and-sync services like this might work, in my utopian Aotearoa.Essentially we're talking about a health internet, linking the internal networks of all health providers that patients choose to use. The fundamental principles are privacy and consent.(2/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBcRNCmSqszXeyWiO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:17:06Z
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The fundamental access model is that patients must have access to all data held about them. They must be able to correct and update information supplied by them, and to challenge the accuracy of data supplied by practices (in case of data entry or other errors), and get it reviewed.So this is a patient-centric system. That's the first design consideration.(3/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBcV1aglgINfFtoMC by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-16T09:17:42Z
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@strypey Wouldnt it be great if all health data is with patients and they give access to doctors they visit?Its stored with users on their devices and has an arbitrary number of encrypted backups ...and users can give temporary or permanent access to their health data to other parties if they want.The main app would be structured like a messenger where you can chat to healthcare providers and make appointment and it keeps your entire history and you are the main admin.
(DIR) Post #AwBd3d8BhUc3wJ4Ls8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:23:55Z
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As I mentioned, I see it as a health internet. Obviously connections between health providers networks would be made through the net. But what I mean is, we're not talking about a centralised database, held by Te Whatu Ora or anyone else. This would be a juicy target for both network attacks ("hacking") by agents of data brokers, and political attacks (like corporatisating the service and selling it off)So the second design principle; it's a decentralised system.(4/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBdNWwUQ4TcXN5Qxc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:27:37Z
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@serapath > its stored with users on their devices and has an arbitrary number of encrypted backups ...and users can give temporary or permanent access to their health data to other parties if they want... and then you drop your phone in the toilet and lose your entire medical records, with no possibility of recovery. As Tony Stark put it, not a great plan.(yes you'd have synced backups etc, but would your Grandpa? What about people who can't afford secure devices, etc)
(DIR) Post #AwBeIKshw0A7dYP92e by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:37:53Z
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So obviously health practices use the HealthNet (TM, patent pending), to supply patients with their health data. But what if the patient wants their current GP to have access to their whole medical record? Or you want to your osteopath to see your back x-rays before a consultation? There would need to be a system for disclosure of specified data, with patient consent, with a timeframe (for A hours/ days/ etc, or ongoing).So the third design principle; selective disclosure.(5/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBeU5rVbNMWWwRysq by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-16T09:39:56Z
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@strypey the backup and restore happens automatically.healthcare providers could literally offer this as a service....and because it works "torrent style" ....there can be many redundant backups and they all add additional benefit.Beyond that - accessing the data will load it from the local device, but if not available, it will automatically fetch it from one or many peers that seed the backup seamlessly.
(DIR) Post #AwBesIIf0eM43WgqSO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:44:23Z
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What intrigues me is that I'm pretty sure I'd never heard of the Solid protocol at the time. But..."With Solid's Authentication and Authorization systems, one can determine which people and applications can access their data. Entities can grant or revoke access to any slice of their data as needed. Consequently, entities can do more with their data, because the applications they decide to use can be granted access to a wider and more diverse set of information."https://solidproject.org/about(6/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBf6tz9h158zOX3q4 by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-16T09:46:59Z
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@strypey solid is inferior in every way.it requires to pick a single provider and ot multiple redundantly and you provide access of your data to that provider.better if you can pick multiple providers redundantly or do it yourself altogether.solid works online and p2p works offline first.the only good idea about solid is that it popularizes the concept of separating data and app. so thx TBL for that 🙂
(DIR) Post #AwBfMCVt5YY8nR8aTQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:49:47Z
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Sounds about right. I could go into a lot more detail about how a resilient and reliably-private health record system might work, and what tech could be used, but I really ought to ask Te Whatu Ora for $100 an hour as a "consultant" if I'm going to do that ; )But I think that's enough of a sketch to give us something to compare Manage My Health against.(7/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBg3d7u18UtmtcxTE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:57:38Z
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(1/2)@serapath > it requires to pick a single providerYou want your phone to be your single provider. How's that an improvement?In a Solid based system, every health provider could set up a pod on their network, under the administration of the patient, for each person they see. To store the patient records they generate, with a revocable permission to consult them as part of their service. Patients could then give GPs access, and use any client to present the data from all those pods.
(DIR) Post #AwBg5U8aPQNKUJpd0C by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T09:57:53Z
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(2/2)> solid works onlineThat fits the brief. You can't use a sneakernet to run an integrated health system FFS.
(DIR) Post #AwBgzwu6dw1dvEyzzc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:08:10Z
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So how does Manage My Health stack up?Well, they talk a good game about privacy and consent, and brief glance over their privacy policy gives an impression of being patient-centric (or wanting to appear that way).But some of the language in the privacy policy reads a bit like; once you've enter optional data into our system, you've given us consent to use it "for our lawful purpose connected to our functions", no further consultation needed;https://managemyhealth.co.nz/privacy-policy/(8/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBhfSIAqb6p8z23EG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:15:40Z
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To be fair, it's hard to run a centralised service without getting all the permissions the MMH privacy policy asks patients to opt-in to. You can add more detail on the limits of data use, but that creates as many problems as it solves. It leads to a longer, more complicated policy,with more room for subtle loopholes, that fewer people will read top to bottom. This is why the decentralisation principle matters. Practices already hold patient records, why not let patients control them?(9/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBiRICNg4ovjv8Iz2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:24:20Z
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So what about selective disclosure? Again, the service seems to be set up with that goal. They talk a lot about supplying data being optional, and encrypted connections between participating data providers and recipients.But according to NoScript (add-on running in my browser), they try to get your web browser to run scripts from domains controlled by known DataFarmers (Goggle), a newsletter provider (MailterLite), WordPress.com (wp.com) *and* WPEngine. This is not encouraging. At all.(10/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBio6II6ZipTilzVY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:28:26Z
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Then there's this bit of the privacy policy, under the subtitle; "Use of personal information";"MMH collects and uses your personal information to operate, improve and deliver ManageMyHealthâ„¢ or carry out the transactions you have requested. These uses may include: d. performing research and analysis aimed at improving our products, services and technologies;e. displaying content and health promotions that are customised to your interests and preferences;"(cont'd in next post)(11/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBivUXMMtuYh5LUa8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:29:47Z
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"Use of personal information" cont'd;"f. using aggregated information (which has identifying information removed) to improve the quality of the services offered on ManageMyHealthâ„¢, for marketing of ManageMyHealthâ„¢ and for general analysis or population health statistics;g. gathering and analysing health statistics (in a form in which you cannot be identified) to allow planning of effective healthcare services within your region. https://managemyhealth.co.nz/privacy-policy/(12/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBjJKvDljCRp5sPyK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:34:05Z
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Now it's possible I've got my tin-foil hat on here, and all of this is just legal boilerplate their cheapo startup lawyer has cut'n'paste and minimally adapted. Maybe their actual practices are totally innocuous.But that's a *lot* of permission for DataFarming we're giving by opting in to that policy, which we have to do to use any part of the service. Enough room to drive a number of lawfully privacy-violating buses through at once.This does not inspire confidence.(13/?)
(DIR) Post #AwBjw8muog9vU4Ul3w by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:41:05Z
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This is what a privatised health system looks like folks.The same people who can buy a McDonalds can buy a franchise to host your most personal data. Under terms that are legal only because the NZ Privacy Act is a leaky sieve, protecting only the most cut'n'dried lowest common denominator of privacy rights. Overseen by a toothless #PrivacyCommissioner, hamstrung by underfunding.https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513289/a-lack-of-consequences-for-managing-personal-information-poorly-privacy-commissionerI won't be using Manage My Health. I suggest you think twice before you do.(14/14)
(DIR) Post #AwBk0fN5c7SxhLZbJw by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:41:19Z
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@strypey yeah, and the data sovereignty is very suspect, too. I think it's owned by a Singaporean company. I believe the same software is deployed in many other countries in the world, under different names.
(DIR) Post #AwBkj98wHgu0m8AFAe by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:49:55Z
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@lightweight > data sovereignty is very suspect, tooI haven't had a thorough dig, but I don't see anything about how how the system works, what kind of encryption they use, where their servers are located and on whose property, etc.> I think it's owned by a Singaporean company.They say they're NZ-owned;https://managemyhealth.co.nz/about-us/But that might be referring to the franchise to use the system in Aotearoa under license. There may be a parent company that's from somewhere else.
(DIR) Post #AwBl3oSOOGbwhQ7Mq8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:53:42Z
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@serapath > healthcare providers could literally offer this as a service> accessing the data will load it from the local device, but if not available, it will automatically fetch it from one or many peers that seed the backup seamlesslyWhat you're describing is exactly what Solid is designed to do, as I understand it. But if you have other protocols to offer as alternatives, I'd be happy to look at them.
(DIR) Post #AwBlRCZys0FIAqotyi by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-16T09:42:28Z
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@strypey and if health care data is ever viewed on your device, it can be stolen... doesnt really matter if you use p2p or something traditional.it only decrypts when you open the app.its also possible to log in to a new device and remotely deactivate a lost device....if you really want to emulate centralized infrastructure, just always purge the local device storage and always redownload the seeded data when you want to lookup anything.
(DIR) Post #AwBlRDhShfp9eLKOHI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T10:57:54Z
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@serapath > if you really want to emulate centralized infrastructure, just ... redownload the seeded data when you want to lookup anythingOh no, we agree that local-first is a good design principle for server-client services. In fact, that's part of the data resilience.In the system I envision, there's a full copy of your medical records synced to each of your devices, with version history. A full copy at your GPs clinic. Plus copies of individual bits of data at the originating practice.
(DIR) Post #AwBqSjIRDJqdhkA7jE by RedRobyn@mastodon.nz
2025-07-16T11:54:09Z
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@strypey The page that link takes me to doesn't say they are locally owned. It talks in friendly terms about 1.85 million kiwis a lot, which makes them seem local, I guess. But it's not at all specific about ownership, or where our info is hosted.I do feel qualms when I get messages about test results from my hardworking GP late at night, and I can see it would be convenient for both of us for me to access them myself. But you aren't the only person I've seen raise concerns, so I've not gone there. @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AwBu7dAjBkdkRgkbq4 by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-16T12:35:10Z
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@strypey @dat_ecosystem the dat stack a.k.a the hyper stack....does enable that. started in 2013 and ow mature and battle tested 🙂
(DIR) Post #AwCTM4jyyywoOjrdNg by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-16T19:09:57Z
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@strypey yeah, I looked into it a while back and the 'kiwi owned' part didn't stack up, but I can't remember the details.
(DIR) Post #AwCwRhZUw21Ewrzkjw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T00:35:59Z
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@RedRobyn > The page that link takes me to doesn't say they are locally owned.It's right at the bottom, just above the list of franchise contacts;"We’re passionate about helping Kiwis stay well, we’re New Zealand-owned and we continue to develop new technology to help everyone live a healthier life."> it would be convenient for both of us for me to access them myself100%. The problem is not with the concept, but in the execution (see my full thread for details)@lightweight
(DIR) Post #AwCx1ZGFJK55bC5mV6 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T00:42:28Z
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There are benefits to local ownership. But in and of itself, being NZ-owned is no guarantee of ethical business practices. AFAIK the company Darleen Tana and her husband used to exploit workers was NZ-owned.@RedRobyn @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AwCxPwQ4rKksNFJT6W by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T00:46:51Z
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@serapath > the dat stack a.k.a the hyper stackOK. If Te Whatu Ora hires me as a consultant, I'll be sure to include that on my list of protocols for evaluation.
(DIR) Post #AwCyiG2sjHEIPQlGLY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T01:01:20Z
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@lightweight > I looked into it a while back and the 'kiwi owned' part didn't stack upGood to know. Shall we combine forces and write an Open Letter to Te Whatu Ora? Laying out how such a system could be designed, pointing out the various problems this reveals with MMH, and making some proposals for implementing a publicly-owned replacement, and properly regulating corporate providers like MMH?To be published, say, mid-2026?
(DIR) Post #AwCyu53FQm3fmpZPBQ by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T01:03:28Z
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@strypey interestingly, after submitting my concerns to my local doctor's surgery, they recently (perhaps partly due to my concerns) switched to yet another service from ManageMyHealth. Haven't had time to review the new one yet, but in this field of medical health data management, my impression is that there's a preponderance of dubious ethics and 'location washing', where businesses pretend to be 'local' but aren't.
(DIR) Post #AwCz4wFEVwWvetLyng by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T01:05:23Z
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@strypey I'm not sure I have the energy to do more than poke around a bit - but this sort of thing should be the responsibility of Te Whatu Ora, but, of course, there's no evidence that they have sufficiently capable (and incredulous) people to assess such things.
(DIR) Post #AwD0YEsGQep9mz94RU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T01:21:56Z
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@lightweight > there's a preponderance of dubious ethics and 'location washing', where businesses pretend to be 'local' but aren'tNo doubt. At least partly because we defeated some of the Corporate Rights Treaties (MAI? TISA?) that had the goal of framing preferences for local suppliers - even publicly-owned or not-for-profit ones - as a "barrier to free trade".
(DIR) Post #AwD0t8juQuCYqNChLk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T01:25:42Z
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@lightweight > I'm not sure I have the energy to do more than poke around a bitThat's why I say "open letter" rather than "report" or even "paper" ; ) I'm thinking of something along the lines of;https://openstandards.nz/A conversation starter that captures our POV as ethical technologists, and that others with more resources can reference in their own campaigns.
(DIR) Post #AwDARgfZgfoLVdiz6e by RedRobyn@mastodon.nz
2025-07-17T03:12:49Z
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@strypey Thanks Missed that while being distracted by all the puff (and overseas contact addresses) @lightweight
(DIR) Post #AwDTYOG4R9IrZ0hm2y by bigblen@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T03:34:12Z
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@lightweight @strypey my gp switched from MMH to something called myinidiciâ„¢ from Irish headquartered https://www.valentiatech.com/I haven't used the new one yet, I stopped using MMH when the portal insisted on agreement to new terms
(DIR) Post #AwDTYPEgnlnCb14BX6 by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T06:43:31Z
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@bigblen @strypey yeah, mine went to that, too.
(DIR) Post #AwDTYQApJcITVKGc9Q by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-17T06:46:48Z
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@lightweight @bigblen I'd like to sketch up a bullet list of criteria to apply to a HealthNet system, and apply it MyInidici and one or two others (if there are any operating in Aotearoa). Like what I tried to do with MMH in that thread.Get the whole analysis on a bit more solid grounding, so it can't be misinterpreted as picking on that one company.
(DIR) Post #AwDWfcBhLU70eenRTM by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-17T07:21:49Z
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@strypey I am happy to share in detail how it works and how it can be used 🙂I do think given the "trump" state of affairs of the world and the omnipresent "enshittification" of everything digital - AI, online frauds and scams..... there is no way around peer to peer in the long run and starting earlier to explore the options doesnt hurt 🙂
(DIR) Post #AwEfyJqsppNY2F0wQS by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-17T20:40:41Z
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@strypey https://github.com/growapehr/pEHR
(DIR) Post #AwH72lJxjYhtSvsXFw by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-17T21:08:31Z
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@strypey https://substack.com/inbox/post/167893366
(DIR) Post #AwH7O7KR6ZmdnoHboO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-19T00:57:26Z
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@serapath Based on this, we seem to be talking about the same EHR problems and roughly the same solution. I imagine linking care provider databases in a federated network, along with local-first patient-facing access apps. You're imagining doing the same in a P2P network, with patient apps as peers.We're using different language, based on a slightly different conceptual framing, the practical implications are the same. The question to be resolved (by implementers) is what protocol set to use.
(DIR) Post #AwHPOgeDaW4yW8xPGK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-19T02:37:22Z
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(1/2)@serapath > given the "trump" state of affairs of the world and the omnipresent "enshittification" of everything digital - AI, online frauds and scams..... there is no way around peer to peerI don't think the one doesn't necessarily follows from the other, any more than the existence of worsening climate change inevitably leads to a Mad Max world. We saw a similar wave of polycrisis in the late 1800s (the "Gilded Age"), which lead to Keynesianism and welfare states, not P2P.
(DIR) Post #AwHPOhsR192sKWcH3o by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-19T02:43:40Z
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(2/2)To be clear, I don't think Keynesianism was (or is) inevitable either. Neither is it my personal ideal. But I definitely prefer it to fascism (Nazi or Stalinist flavours), or endless cycles of war and economic recession, which were the alternatives on the table at the end of WW2. I also find it preferable to living like Mad Max (P2P as the totality of social infrastructure).
(DIR) Post #AwHdsjyx9b9Wu9sfGS by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-19T07:01:24Z
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@strypey i do think there are some differences, because federation is not p2p.you choose your fedi instance operator.- if they delete your data - bad luck- if their system crashes - bad luck- if they refuse to give access - bad luck- and so on ...i know quite many people who had to start over on mastodon, because their instance did shut down permanently without prior warning.With p2p, you can have as many redundant "instance operators" as you want in parallel.
(DIR) Post #AwHgaVVAYK0ye1wl04 by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-19T07:08:38Z
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@strypey yes i read graeber.also, i dont equate p2p with mad max.there is no social order or structure p2p cant emulate. Bitcion for example is p2p money in the technical sense, but has a global consensus built in.also afaik bitcoin ends all wars 🙂...but now we have lots of tangents we can go off on
(DIR) Post #AwJKBCixQ9bGUYqTcO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-20T02:30:10Z
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@serapath we've talked about BitCoin at length and we're unlikely to get much out of another round ; )How about you expand on> i dont equate p2p with mad max. there is no social order or structure p2p cant emulate... and see if we can keep the discussion grounded by referring back to the ERP use case?
(DIR) Post #AwJKk1qjqNfEtu5fzU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-20T02:36:28Z
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@serapath > federation is not p2p.Mastodon is not P2P. But even within the fediverse there are experiments that blur the boundaries. None of the properties you imply are inherent to federation is true of Hubzilla using nomadic identity and channel cloning.> you can have as many redundant "instance operators" as you want in parallelExactly. But with the added bonus of things servers do that native apps can't, especially on mobile. As the SSB dev community had to discover for themselves.
(DIR) Post #AwJxphZO3MOtxBfdNA by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-20T09:54:18Z
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@strypey Its quite a wide topic.I am not entirely sure what you specifically mean by "mad max" and also not which issues to discuss in the context of ehrp 🙂But would be happy to discuss.Also fedi means federated.if every single person was their own instance operator from a home server its not fediverse anymore imho. and that is where p2p is.the home server is from their device though - no router config or raspberri pi or whatever technical shenangians needed
(DIR) Post #AwK2HUlfdx9YArvNxI by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-20T10:44:17Z
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@strypey The issues SSB had do not exist with dat.A good example is the keet messenger
(DIR) Post #AwLxGcQvXywOChu9A0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-21T08:57:34Z
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@serapath > The issues SSB had do not exist with datWhich issues and why not?> A good example is the keet messengerExample of what exactly?
(DIR) Post #AwMCrWbJh3Iu8rovDs by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-21T11:52:14Z
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@strypey the issue of ssb being not able to sparsly replicate for a long time and tbus apps were built around that. ssb using json for everything hitting some performance bottlenecks and then again the remaining issue which dat has too, which isdata availability without servers....but just like fediverse has instances that keep data around, so do "blind mirrors" in dat, so it depends how you architect your app, but the dat building blocka are a lot more robust and perform way better
(DIR) Post #AwPdepDeRLkMMEndcO by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-21T11:54:48Z
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@strypey the experience in browsering patchwork and other apps, such as git-ssb and later "manyverse" are mostly remembered frkm slow syncing speeds and the inability to find peers.With keet you have plenty of rooms woth 1000s of peers in them chatting, having voice and video calls in real time and its stable regardless of where in the world you are located. Even the "great firewall" is not match for dat 🙂
(DIR) Post #AwPdeqXtVZX8TJHJoG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T03:36:36Z
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(1/2)@serapath > With keet you have plenty of rooms woth 1000s of peers in them chattingIs that where everyone who used to be on Matrix has gone? Must give it a go.
(DIR) Post #AwPduVGmNbnJ7PjrRQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T03:39:32Z
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(2/3)Hmm. No Keet app in F-Droid. Let's try the website;"You need to enable JavaScript to run this app."Ooookay. Turned on. Huh. Not an app at all, just a simple brochureware site that could be pure HTML/CSS uploaded by FTP."Keet BETA is here!"Ok. Click on "Download Keet";"Get Keet for Android | Keet from Play Store"Oh. Not an option. What about GNU/Linux? Seems I have to compile each new version myself from a tar.gz of source code.#Keet #HolePunch
(DIR) Post #AwPe8Ws3Dux88erOgS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T03:41:45Z
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(3/3)Doesn't seem to be ready for production use. Get back to me when the Android app is available in F-Droid. Or the GNU/Linux app is packaged by Debian, Fedora, or one of the other core distros, so updates can be automated.
(DIR) Post #AwPfH6MpEU7MV1uFYO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T03:54:49Z
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@serapath > I am not entirely sure what you specifically mean by "mad max"What I meant was no social structure at any scale larger than the atomised individual;https://meaningness.com/atomized-modeBut on reflection, that's not even true in the Mad Max films, or any survivalist dystopia I've seen in fiction.
(DIR) Post #AwPfP9eSu9j10EzspM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T03:56:16Z
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(1/?)@serapath > I am not entirely sure what you specifically mean by "mad max"What I meant was no social structure at any scale larger than the atomised individual;https://meaningness.com/atomized-modeBut on reflection, that's not even true in the Mad Max films, or any survivalist dystopia I've seen in fiction. Maybe there's something to consider in that.
(DIR) Post #AwPg09yeemvgjA5Ome by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T04:02:57Z
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(2/?)Maybe also in the fact that after a quarter century of mainstreaming the net, there isn't a single widely used system that's pure P2P. Not for lack of trying either. Crypto-anarchists have been trying to build them since HyphaNet launched in 2000 as FreeNet, if not longer. I was just as bullish as you on the logic of P2P back then. But every promising attempt I've followed ends up adding hypernodes (ie servers) like BT or fails to scale like Aether.
(DIR) Post #AwPgJd6sZBgcaCDVg0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T04:06:27Z
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(3/?)That doesn't mean it's impossible. It does mean it's *hard*. So unless there's something that can only be done with pure P2P, it makes much more sense to build systems with hypernodes (ie servers), and build in ways for them to be community-managed (eg democratically-run fediverse services like social.coop);I wrote about this on the Bridge Seat blog last time we debated this at length:https://bridgeseat.substack.com/p/in-defence-of-servers
(DIR) Post #AwPgYFbiEOgC2BbvWK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-23T04:09:06Z
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(4/4)@serapath> not which issues to discuss in the context of ehrpHow would you see P2P emulating the social order/ structure of an integrated public health system, capable of everything from ER triage and emergency surgery, through to long term management of chronic conditions.
(DIR) Post #AwPuGtnzR5gYqsyQnw by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-23T06:42:47Z
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@strypey i mean - there is not existing "app" or structure, all the way to 100% centralized, that you wpuldnt be abpe to emulate with peer to peer.The difference is, that with e.g. facebook, you cant emulate fediverse or p2p and with fediverse, you can emulate facebook... just make everyone join exactly one instance, but you cant emulate p2p... and with p2p you can emulate everything. its just more powerful and the technology does not determine what social structurws are expressible.
(DIR) Post #AwQ8eNmfXaHfqdRpQG by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-23T09:23:54Z
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@strypey i dont really know.You can download a zipped AppImage which is executable to run keet.it works on mobile and desktop.macos, linux, windows, ios, android.its in the official appstores.you can also get it via `npm install pear -g`followed by `pear run pear://keet`beyond that there is fdroid and others and lots of linux distributions with their own package managers... its an entire field to study and spend money on to support that....i am sure they eventually will support it
(DIR) Post #AwTctjJtKj295D6LpI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-25T01:47:02Z
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@serapath > You can download a zipped AppImage which is executable to run keetUseful for testing only, unless updates are automated.> you can also get it via `npm installNever again. Anything associated in any way with npm is instantly less credible in my books. Especially a private messaging app. > beyond that there is fdroid and others and lots of linux distributions with their own package managersNone of which have decided to package it yet. See my second post in that trio.
(DIR) Post #AwTdDF1HhL6utthZoW by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-23T09:25:13Z
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@strypey in the mean time - being able to install from npm whoch works cross platform and having an appimage which works cross platform - is solving the problem....and where that wont work, keet is in the official app stores.i am sure they welcome pull requests to support fdroid or other distribution methods as well 🙂
(DIR) Post #AwTdDGF99HnEhBCA3k by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-23T09:26:34Z
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@strypey the hard parts are solved... packaging i for and to other distributiin channels is what anyone can do for their app - depending on the target audience. its not really realted to the peer tk peer tech or keet as such.
(DIR) Post #AwTdDHfPr6Ot6wUee0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-25T01:50:27Z
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@serapath > the hard parts are solved... packaging it for and to other distribution channels is what anyone can do for their appThat's what people said about Scuttlebutt. And Aether. I decided to wait, and a few years later, it turns out the hard parts were *not* solved, and everyone who surfed the P2P bleeding edge wasted a whole lot of time and effort. Meanwhile, apps based on federated protocols (XMPP, AP, Matrix) have progressed considerably, on solid foundations.
(DIR) Post #AwU5Ee7Uevp1km438a by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-25T07:04:30Z
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@strypey updates are automated p2p
(DIR) Post #AwU649et9ulAKzFIzQ by serapath@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-07-25T07:13:49Z
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@strypey while ssb started later and died earlier, dat started in 2013 and is still going, so arguably its around longer - but yeah, p2p is a lot more challenging than fediverse, so it also took longer to get it to the level where finally more end user apps can be build on top of it 🙂