Post AvI2hJcQsqIvvyCDDc by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
(DIR) More posts by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
(DIR) Post #AvGPqnX8wLf5wsICpc by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-18T18:57:31.120Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
I wonder who runs the GrapheneOS fediverse account. You think it might be Daniel himself?
(DIR) Post #AvGQ0CQvjU6HmQryaW by splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network
2025-06-18T18:59:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq my money is on inference
(DIR) Post #AvGQ2ihej2AiRTtXJg by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-18T18:59:42.074Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network Who's that?
(DIR) Post #AvGQH5GVdWsETJ2wCm by splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network
2025-06-18T19:02:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq cc @inferenceThey have the same posting etiquette, except graphene doesn't say "cult" nearly as often.
(DIR) Post #AvGQLEDYIIDHOYdhmC by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-18T19:03:01.099Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network @inference@scl.inferencium.net That website doesn't load for me.
(DIR) Post #AvGQSPDbn7fZXb5X96 by splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network
2025-06-18T19:04:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq yeah he dipped after trying to make a "security hardened" Linux distro (whatever that means) but nobody joined his dev team.
(DIR) Post #AvGQbBZjswbhplctAO by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-18T19:05:55.602Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network Secops larping is so funny to me.They just like take a project and make some changes by disabling convenient features "to reduce attack vectors" or something and call it a day. It's all just a funny LARP to me.
(DIR) Post #AvGR36X6E81eIqhisK by splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network
2025-06-18T19:10:56Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq it really is.Because most people who actually are security in the industry just do defense in depth because they are constrained by pre existing decisions of their company. Security rarely (never?) gets to unilaterally make decisions by themselves. And most companies see security as a nuisance only there for regulatory compliance.
(DIR) Post #AvGRMW7tINFzBKAajw by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-18T19:14:29.041Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network Personally I see security issues as the same thing as bugs, unstability, glitches, etc.It's annoying, and some developer should fix it eventually.But it's always something you can just work around most of the time. It's really not as important as software freedom, because not having freedom is not something you can as a user just work around. If your software is not free, you're being screwed and there's really nothing you can do.
(DIR) Post #AvGSFA5uuWlgmJIr2G by splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network
2025-06-18T19:24:20Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq A security purist would tell you that PCs, are inherently insecure because you cannot lock the bootloader like you would on a smart phone.An actual security professional might acknowledge that fact in theory, but in practice would never suggest to you that you should replace your computing with a smartphone because the architecture of PC/Servers is insecure.
(DIR) Post #AvHZY2PMbe6hHLJ5lo by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T08:20:53.758Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network He's starting to say cult a lot now
(DIR) Post #AvHdZxwQaGPfoywn3I by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T09:06:06.058595Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@splitshockvirus @SuperDicq It is probably Daniel because in one thread the account kept mentioning Louis Rossman and KiwiFarms, both of which are Daniel's biggest nightmares. The former made a video about how shitty his behavior in private was and the latter has a 20 page thread about him posting walls of text after someone disagrees with him.
(DIR) Post #AvHdi24X6rzIwuaK6S by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T09:07:30.583Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network He actually just posted 12 hours in my thread absolutely going in circles about how much he disagrees with me lmao
(DIR) Post #AvHeLaxbKWyMRlCvMO by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T09:14:42.533097Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@SuperDicq @splitshockvirus Yeah, that's his style. When you look at his Twitter it's almost exclusively that.Finds some thread -> replies with a disagreement (usually in bad faith to one of the projects he hates) -> people disagree with him -> write 10 replies -> Write a subpost -> another 20 replies to his own post -> cycle continues.
(DIR) Post #AvHePjHeKH7VQ4YY9Q by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T09:15:26.561Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network Does this guy actually develop software or does he just rant online 247?
(DIR) Post #AvHeyAfuzY72DbKZtI by graf@poa.st
2025-06-19T09:21:39.629667Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
wait what's the developers issue with rossman?
(DIR) Post #AvHfjJy4G8QSeLIqUi by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T09:30:12.251960Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@SuperDicq @splitshockvirus Officially Daniel stepped down from being a lead developer and became a director. But he also said that he won't use public social media, which he clearly still does and did even after stepping down. What he really does today, nobody knows.https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/13t3bsk/daniel_micay_ive_stepped_down_as_lead_developer/ (Tweet restricted)
(DIR) Post #AvHfpRRFOdxhYas05w by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T09:31:16.274Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network Louis Rossman made a video about him? Do you have a link? I'm kind of curious.
(DIR) Post #AvHfw9Kv6853RR6ozI by GrapheneOS@cum.salon
2025-06-19T09:32:29.901815Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@SuperDicq @splitshockvirus @phnt I'm going to molest you.
(DIR) Post #AvHgPH7DFsD3xuaNMG by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T09:37:46.987378Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@graf @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus It all started when Rossmann replied to a Techlore video that talked about how Daniel Micay acted in their DMs after daring to talk about Graphene's competitor CalyxOS. The comment was "This is informative and unfortunate!" After that Rossmann and Micay had some conversation in DMs on Matrix that played out mostly the same, accusing Rossmann of multiple things which lead to him making a video about it. Micay's response to this was that Rossmann is a "kiwifarmer" (he has a thread he replies in). Something he still uses to this day to accuse Rossmann of talking about him on KF, which is something he doesn't do.Good videos about Graphene:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIZmUINSvQ4 (GrapheneOS; the greatest mobile OS of all time. Common usability misconceptions DEBUNKED!)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3_O6H5YIAs (GrapheneOS strikes again; my phone wasn't compromised because I wasn't using Google's fk'd android)The video in question:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0 (Why I deleted GrapheneOS)
(DIR) Post #AvHgVWm1wzoCGZewD2 by jae@darkdork.dev
2025-06-19T09:38:23.905441Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus also it talks like him. the pseudo-compassionate tone, heavy focus on points already driven, easily reactive. its honestly not worth the back and forth. although i enjoyed the ping pong between him and superdicq. free software and security are not often married.
(DIR) Post #AvHhEPDWtMoxrTvBJI by Andromxda@infosec.exchange
2025-06-19T09:44:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt You do realize that Kiwi Farms is a far-right forum dedicated to doxxing and stalking people online, including swatting attacks and other severe forms of harassment, right? After the website was banned by Cloudflare because it poses "an imminent and emergency threat to human life" (Cloudflare's wording, not mine), it's VanwaTech's CDN, a company founded by Nicholas Lim, a literal Neo-Nazi and QAnon supporter. These are the kind of people you are defending. Just acknowledge that.I highly recommend reading the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_FarmsLouis Rossmann has a verified account on Kiwi Farms, so he openly supports Nazis too.@SuperDicq I saw in your profile that you claim to be a leftist, bisexual, and autistic. How can you at the same time support a platform run by Nazis, which is notorious for facilitating harassment against trans and other queer people, as well as disabled and neurodivergent individuals?
(DIR) Post #AvHhEQUa9S3VoeuJWq by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T09:46:59.138Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Andromxda@infosec.exchange @phnt@fluffytail.org What the hell are you talking about? When did I say I supported Kiwifarms?
(DIR) Post #AvHhNW2Ou2dFca3luC by graf@poa.st
2025-06-19T09:48:39.037337Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
this guy types more than a scorned ex girlfriend, literal novels to somebody he's never talked to. crazy. is this guy schizo or something?
(DIR) Post #AvHhnEQH18r4WDULQ0 by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T09:53:16.321Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Andromxda@infosec.exchange @phnt@fluffytail.org If you want to know what my opinion is about KiwiFarms. I generally don't like it and I think the whole premise of the site is really cringe. I am obviously not a supporter of harassment campaigns either.But also I acknowledge that sometimes KiwiFarms does good things as well, like conveniently archiving stuff that no other website wants to archive. Like Drew Devault's deleted Reddit posts come to mind...
(DIR) Post #AvHhrteneRC3YxVWgS by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T09:54:09.655410Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@Andromxda @SuperDicq >You do realize that Kiwi Farms is a far-right forum dedicated to doxxing and stalking people online,...1. I know very well what KF is.2. Now tell me why it is relevant what KF is, when one guy (Rossmann) has a thread about him there and he replies exclusively in that thread, which Daniel Micay always spins into Rossmann supporting harassment against him and talking about him on that forum. Something _didn't_ do.One is using shitty forum full of degenerates to reply to a thread about you. Second is using the first fact to smear someone's reputation based on lies and never providing any proof.>These are the kind of people you are defending. Just acknowledge that.Where did I say that I defend them. Tell me.
(DIR) Post #AvHhxr5q634lLfzpYm by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T09:55:14.358853Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@graf @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus Yes, he very likely has severe paranoid schizophrenia accompanied with narcissistic and controlling behavior.
(DIR) Post #AvHi75EStfqdo4QnQ0 by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T09:56:52.326Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @graf@poa.st @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network I mean he is also afraid that every intelligence agency in the world is after him exploiting every possible zero day
(DIR) Post #AvHiFeRbrasDKbfI80 by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T09:58:25.235Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @graf@poa.st @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network Or that projects like Linux-Libre are a actually a secret psyop to make people run less secure software so they are most easily hackable.
(DIR) Post #AvHim7cWvGhL5PFw7k by Andromxda@infosec.exchange
2025-06-19T09:59:20Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq Instead of acknowledging that Daniel Micay has been the victim of harassment by Kiwi Farms members, including Louis Rossmann, and many others for a long time, you (and the other people in this thread) try to blame it on him somehow. You knowingly downplay how bad Rossmann and Kiwi Farms are and instead focus on painting a negative picture of Daniel Micay and the GrapheneOS team.I don't want to suggest that you are doing this out of malicious intent, but there is more than enough misinformation about the GrapheneOS project and its developers on the internet, and unfortunately here in the Fediverse as well.Such accusations further damage the project's reputation and prepare the ground for malicious misinformation.
(DIR) Post #AvHim8mUbiGGgavPI8 by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T10:04:16.503Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Andromxda@infosec.exchange For context. I just got out of a thread where the GrapheneOS fediverse account was just ranting at me in circles for 12 hours (!) about how the free software movement is a cult that is designed to mislead people or something.So what I would say in my case is that he has willingly painted a very negative picture of GrapheneOS and himself.I don't know about any of the Louis Rossmann or Kiwi Farm stuff that I am not involved in.I'm not a fan of Louis Rossman either, he is guilty of undermining software freedom too and tries to shamelessly defend distribution proprietary software too.
(DIR) Post #AvHivJTiCmKQT7VwW0 by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T10:05:59.133887Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@SuperDicq @graf @splitshockvirus From a security perspective running GNUBoot/Canoeboot is insecure, because you are using the a broken microcode on your CPU, which _does_ expose you to all the side-channel attacks from ~10 years. From a privacy perspective, it's better. What most people don't realize is that security and privacy are sometimes mutually exclusive.
(DIR) Post #AvHjDg9ucMGS1Y0iHo by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T10:09:15.244Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @graf@poa.st @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network broken microcodeYou clearly read Leah's misleading articles.The microcode in the CPU is not broken. It is still doing exactly the same thing it did when it left the factory 10 years ago.The act of inserting the blob on boot that the manufacturer recommends does not mean it is suddenly broken.
(DIR) Post #AvHjMIMoRdsQqC9YX2 by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T10:09:57.842Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @graf@poa.st @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network broken microcodeYou clearly read Leah's misleading articles.The microcode in the CPU is not broken. It is still doing exactly the same thing it did when it left the factory 10 years ago.Not performing the act of inserting the blob on boot which the manufacturer recommends does not mean it is suddenly broken.
(DIR) Post #AvHjWOVeSguCmt6SDg by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T10:12:38.936Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @graf@poa.st @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network I see it more like this. I hope this analogy makes sense.For example I drive an old car that doesn't have ABS braking. Just because modern cars all have ABS braking, doesn't mean that my car is broken. It just doesn't have this feature because it is old.
(DIR) Post #AvHjifLLhRpyTJ8TJY by Andromxda@infosec.exchange
2025-06-19T10:04:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt which Daniel Micay always spins into Rossmann supporting harassment against himHe literally does. Have you seen his video about GrapheneOS? It's full of completely baseless accusations and weird conspiracy theories, with malicious intent, and with the intention of harming the repuation of Daniel Micay and GrapheneOS. This is the definition of harassment.
(DIR) Post #AvHjifrFmpMG4G3x2m by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T10:14:52.569845Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@Andromxda >He literally doesNo he doesn't. At this point it feels like you are taking Daniel Micay's point at face value with no attempts at verifying what really happened.>Have you seen his video about GrapheneOS?Yes, I even posted it in this thread and here it is again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0And here's the KF stuff:The thread: https://kiwifarmsaaf4t2h7gc3dfc5ojhmqruw2nit3uejrpiagrxeuxiyxcyd.onion/threads/escape-from-new-york-louis-rossmann-edition.124966/Rossmann's full post history: https://kiwifarmsaaf4t2h7gc3dfc5ojhmqruw2nit3uejrpiagrxeuxiyxcyd.onion/members/larossmann.132201/#recent-contentYou can also search for Rossmann's post clicking on the search button and typing larossmann into the box next to "By:">It's full of completely baseless accusations and weird conspiracy theories, with malicious intent, and with the intention of harming the repuation of Daniel Micay and GrapheneOS. This is the definition of harassment.Watch the video.
(DIR) Post #AvHkUvbQYEUanbfYlk by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T10:23:37.219380Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@SuperDicq @graf @splitshockvirus >You clearly read Leah's misleading articles.Nope and never did.>it is suddenly broken.It literally is broken from a security point of view. That microcode can be used to exploit the CPU and newer versions of it patched those specific flaws. You are basically saying that if an embedded unchangeable and unupgradeable firmware (FSF's definition, not mine; basically what not updating microcode does) on my device can be used to exploit my device, it isn't broken, because it still does the same thing as it always did.Not updating microcode on a CPU to comply with FSF's views of the world _is_ a security risk. Period. There shouldn't be any questioning around that, it's a simple fact.
(DIR) Post #AvHkoKhNT93O8QhnYu by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T10:27:06.628Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @graf@poa.st @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network It is not a security risk. That is a misconception. Inserting proprietary blobs is simply not the only way to fix these security exploits. You can also fix these exploits in many other ways using workarounds in the boot firmware, the kernel or even by patching userland software.
(DIR) Post #AvHmXf34ks6IEc25Bo by splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network
2025-06-19T10:46:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq like clockwork
(DIR) Post #AvHwXA7ijUltrcbdR2 by vokainen099@cawfee.club
2025-06-19T12:38:28.353416Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq @graf @splitshockvirus @phnt Your CPU is always going to be loading closed-source firmware, because otherwise it wouldn't work. That's not going awayBut, if you're stuck using 10+ years old firmware, chances are it has no fixes/mitigations against several attack vectors that were found in the meantime. Never mind some CPUs get shipped with faulty firmware at launch and need the updated ones otherwise they don't work wellOf course, there's likelihood something else got put into the firmware in addition to fixes/mitigations with each update. But that doesn't mean attack vectors don't exist at all. Solution would be truly open source hardware, but that requires a better timeline than ours
(DIR) Post #AvHwlBJT6hVtbhmmtU by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T12:40:58.691Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@vokainen099@cawfee.club @graf@poa.st @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network @phnt@fluffytail.org Exactly I am obviously also of the opinion that free microcode updates would be the ideal situation.But currently you can choose between nonfree microcode updates, or no micro updates. So I choose none.
(DIR) Post #AvI1bnJDU3gYKB0l6W by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
2025-06-19T13:35:19.936986Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus @A39IsTOZ8SJIr2oM2y.graf@poa.st If you don't run proprietary malware on your computer, side channels do not matter to you; https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/pub/who-is-afraid-of-spectre-and-meltdown.en.htmlIntel and AMD only provide proprietary software microcode updates for only so many years, thus even if you are willing to run all the proprietary software, you will be vulnerable to a newly discovered side channel after a few short years (better go out and buy new hardware every year eh?) - core 2 duo and many other after architectures are vulnerable to many side channels even on the latest microcode updates (better go throw all that hardware out eh?).From a privacy perspective, not running any proprietary malware and therefore not giving anyone the remotest chance of spying on you is best.
(DIR) Post #AvI24HDFtaF9B5nvzk by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T13:40:30.274512Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @splitshockvirusfedi-fsf-gnu-anniversary.jpg
(DIR) Post #AvI2hJcQsqIvvyCDDc by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
2025-06-19T13:47:26.761232Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus @A39IsTOZ8SJIr2oM2y.graf@poa.st >newer versions of it patched those specific flaws.False.Intel didn't release a single update for speculative execution attacks on core 2 duo; https://community.intel.com/t5/Mobile-and-Desktop-Processors/Intel-Core-2-Duo-T7300-update-microcode-question-about-fixed/m-p/1198999I appears that there were only updates to improve stability (i.e. you can watch slop videos for hours - but Xeon's support that out of the box and you can 775 mod those and use them).The only way to mitigate some of the attacks is free software workarounds in software, implemented in the kernel, Linux, although those cause a big performance hit.>if an embedded unchangeable and unupgradeable firmwareIf something is unchangeable it is not firmware - it is hardware.>can be used to exploit my deviceIt's only if you run proprietary malware can you be exploited and such activity innately causes total insecurity.>Not updating microcode on a CPU to comply with FSF's views of the worldThere is a proprietary software license on that proprietary software program and for the user to install is it to surrender freedom just as hard as installing any other proprietary program, if not harder - the FSF is the only organization with the backbone to point that out.
(DIR) Post #AvI2r4EawBiV7EhDYe by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
2025-06-19T13:49:17.489267Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@phnt @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus >Implying a proprietary bullet could possibly penetrate the skull of the GNU.An appropriate response to such attempted desecration will be delivered of course.
(DIR) Post #AvI2rAiwoFYrF6wXhY by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T13:49:20.375644Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @splitshockvirusgnu-virging-holy-programmer.png
(DIR) Post #AvI2zvVElqEedphlDc by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T13:50:52.121Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt@fluffytail.org @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network We can both get along. TempleOS is also free software.
(DIR) Post #AvI38wS2c6pKBnVbLU by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
2025-06-19T13:52:30.873612Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus Only one of them got hit by a proprietary train.TempleOS couldn't possibly have been written without GNU.
(DIR) Post #AvI3DKaGpZ1kC5S0w4 by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
2025-06-19T13:53:18.678Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com @phnt@fluffytail.org @splitshockvirus@mstdn.starnix.network TempleOS couldn't possibly have been written without GNU.Didn't Terry David bootstrap his own compiler and everything tho?
(DIR) Post #AvI5AFdKyp4BsbXp3o by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
2025-06-19T14:15:11.754680Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SuperDicq @splitshockvirus @phnt He bootstrapped the compiler with gcc.
(DIR) Post #AvI5GdeQb1Ee6f6Hjs by phnt@fluffytail.org
2025-06-19T14:16:20.916403Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus If Windows was compiled with gcc, would that make it GNU?
(DIR) Post #AvI5X1y3xGdA9m6JOq by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
2025-06-19T14:19:17.346314Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @SuperDicq @splitshockvirus That would only make it compiled with gcc.There is in fact a version of the GNU system designed to work with the NT kernel to make GNU/kWindows; https://mikegerwitz.com/2016/04/gnu-kwindowsWindows was in fact originally developed with GNU software, for example GNU make, until management decreed that a garbage build system must be used instead.