Post AtAAcwSzejTmxtvv1M by john@sauropods.win
 (DIR) More posts by john@sauropods.win
 (DIR) Post #AtAAcro4yuNKVqlBh2 by drmambobob@ecoevo.social
       2025-04-16T06:12:09Z
       
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       So-called species that end up nested within another species are at best a subspecies and more likely a population of that higher-order taxon. Eg the Iriomote cat which molecular phylogenetics revealed sat within leopard cats.
       
 (DIR) Post #AtAActFPclpiyuYWw4 by Gurre@mastodon.nu
       2025-04-16T06:15:51Z
       
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       @drmambobob But what about when they are sat thusly, but still have a clear genetic & morphological (and possibly behavioral) distinctness such that they keep separate from the wider species?I must admit I know no specific example (not my field at all) but surely this must happen at times as a subspecies becomes separate species?
       
 (DIR) Post #AtAAcuHDnWsIAoPUOW by drmambobob@ecoevo.social
       2025-04-16T06:20:37Z
       
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       @Gurre The case with the Iriomote cat is that it’s considered critically endangered as a subspecies so I don’t necessarily think species status is what distinguishes functional or practical entity. We just can’t call them species within our current working framework.
       
 (DIR) Post #AtAAcv7KfmYgmQn6cS by mike@sauropods.win
       2025-04-16T08:41:16Z
       
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       @drmambobob @Gurre "We just can’t call them species within our current working framework." <-- That depends on which of the 20 or 30 species concepts we're using.
       
 (DIR) Post #AtAAcvlkFWsunlhNbs by drmambobob@ecoevo.social
       2025-04-16T11:56:05Z
       
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       @mike @Gurre Surely none of them would support breaking another species into a paraphyletic taxon? We’d have to erect species for each subspecies and population?
       
 (DIR) Post #AtAAcwSzejTmxtvv1M by john@sauropods.win
       2025-04-16T22:54:20Z
       
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       @drmambobob @mike @Gurre We need to allow species to be paraphyletic, or accept that all life on earth is one species.Or, you know, abandon the concept as no more meaningful than genera.
       
 (DIR) Post #AtAbvMMgnq0TGJzW88 by drmambobob@ecoevo.social
       2025-04-17T04:00:20Z
       
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       @john @mike @Gurre That’s a bit extreme and binary isn’t it?
       
 (DIR) Post #AtAcGr8FbfVClYUJBw by john@sauropods.win
       2025-04-17T04:04:15Z
       
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       @drmambobob @mike @Gurre I don’t think so, all the arguments against ranks apply to the “species” level as well. The only special thing there is interbreeding, which applies to a subset of life and is a complete mess anyway.
       
 (DIR) Post #AtBBkMkIdx0lbk5klE by mike@sauropods.win
       2025-04-17T10:41:44Z
       
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       @john @drmambobob @Gurre John is correct. This is a fact about mathematics, not about biology: you simply cannot partition a tree into exclusive non-overlapping and exhaustive subtrees.