Post AsKxfiITcFDpSuPGYC by temporal_spider@masto.ai
(DIR) More posts by temporal_spider@masto.ai
(DIR) Post #AsJ6q28zBtahBd2kIi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T08:32:18Z
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Flint napping does something to people. Everyone I know who has learned this skill (to understand prehistoric humans) becomes oddly obsessed with it. They do it waaay more than is strictly needed to understand the archeology. And they become ... evangelical about the whole thing. "You have to try this!" nappers can be very pushy.I have no doubt they are correct, it must a kind of time travel through synchronicity. But, I also wonder if they have awoken something in themselves.
(DIR) Post #AsJ739uFdrT91ePTLU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T08:34:38Z
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There is a theory and neolithic hand-axes are a bit like bird nests. When a bird builds a nest it's driven by deep instincts and by active choices and real-thinking from the bird. The idea is that humans made hand-axes in a similar way ... not that it was "just all instinct" but that there is something automatic buried there. And were that true why would it be totally gone?
(DIR) Post #AsJ7Bv16N0adS8n6uW by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2025-03-22T08:35:07.113697Z
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@futurebird i was just looking at this other thread https://bsky.app/profile/jelenawoehr.bsky.social/post/3lg6za5bjuk22 and i feel like they're kinda drifting in a similar direction
(DIR) Post #AsJ7DQ9U5zYQJ4QcO8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T08:36:32Z
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@apophis Aw man, I wish the link worked for this post. I want to boost it.
(DIR) Post #AsJ7KUKcxCifIT0hZA by MLE_online@social.afront.org
2025-03-22T08:37:45Z
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@futurebird I've heard that the number of stone hand axes made by homo erectus greatly exceeds any possible need they might have had for them, leaving archaeologists and paleontologists if homo erectus just really *liked* making hand axes because it was fun
(DIR) Post #AsJ7O38Y0PN4703fv6 by mensrea@freeradical.zone
2025-03-22T08:38:24Z
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@futurebird i haven't done much of it, we don't really have the rock for it here. but there is something very satisfying about the action, and the feeling in hand. kind of like a cross between shooting and carving
(DIR) Post #AsJ7XN9ax7e8nczfnc by jerry@decentralis.social
2025-03-22T08:38:39Z
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@futurebird I read this as "flirt napping" at first and was very confused. Follow up Toot fixed that though.I must now try flint napping.
(DIR) Post #AsJ7XOX1pTz94axtxo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T08:40:06Z
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@jerry "Flirt Napping" is what my cat does to extract food and pets from everyone. Basically is being so cute when you sleep that you can control people. Also a powerful skill.
(DIR) Post #AsJ7eUJmiKpd2w9XPM by ehproque@paquita.masto.host
2025-03-22T08:41:23Z
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@futurebird [Googles] I'm very disappointed to learn that this is not a technique to improve my afternoon naps
(DIR) Post #AsJ7jgTqvEDCDPL7o0 by anantagd@ieji.de
2025-03-22T08:42:20Z
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@futurebird I learned to lay fires in Saami traditional ways, and that too produces this "gesturing back through time" primordial muscle memory somehow. I can imagine flint knapping does the same. Also a deep mystical connection to "special stones"
(DIR) Post #AsJ84s0tEpng45tY5g by DrorBedrack@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T08:46:10Z
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@futurebird It's probably sampling bias : you only meet the people that stuck with it.
(DIR) Post #AsJ8EGickmb7IGph3o by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T08:47:53Z
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@DrorBedrack That's possible. However, I'm still scared to try it because I don't have time to be making hand-axes when I'm trying to write this short story.
(DIR) Post #AsJ8NLCrRCiNonImDQ by morachbeag@aus.social
2025-03-22T08:49:28Z
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@futurebird I remember while studying history in highschool going off and trying this with some slate offcuts that were round the back. In the end I never got round to finishing the paper, but instead spent weeks just making things like hand axes that will probably one day get buried and confuse the hell out of the future archaeological record. Ha.
(DIR) Post #AsJ8QplkGMxjTXHgZs by smathermather@mapstodon.space
2025-03-22T08:50:07Z
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@futurebird I found something similar with seed gathering. Take a group of folks, send them out collecting seeds and chatting, and it’s as addictive as going to a dance or concert
(DIR) Post #AsJ8ayhZuEN04lAjuS by meeoo@toot.community
2025-03-22T08:51:57Z
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@futurebird I needed to go back to the Wikipedia article to confirm what I remembered reading somewhere, which is that "many hand axes show considerable skill, design and symmetry beyond that needed for utility". The sheer amount of them also seems to indicate what you're hinting at.And of course some scientists have to involve sexual selection as a reason for making beautiful things 🙄https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_axe
(DIR) Post #AsJ9LnlAPF9VkYB62a by huxley@mstdn.social
2025-03-22T08:59:44Z
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@meeoo @futurebird Before 'pimp my ride' there was 'pimp my hand ace'?
(DIR) Post #AsJ9ffVUnceLwiJyeu by thomasbeagle@mastodon.nz
2025-03-22T09:03:59Z
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@futurebird @DrorBedrack On the plus side, you'll be able to tell people "Sorry my story was late, I was too busy knapping flint. No that's not a euphemism."
(DIR) Post #AsJ9kqaZ1cR7lOA3cm by flying_saucers@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T09:04:57Z
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@futurebird is that why watching roofers size slate roof tiles is so satisfying?
(DIR) Post #AsJ9rqv8BqlOor7bw8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T09:06:14Z
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I'll give another example of an instinct: grooming. The impulse to clean, organize, wash, scrape skin and hair. Instincts play some role in grooming rituals but the exact expression is influenced by culture and personal choice. Now consider that many insects groom themselves. Could there be some common element in all of the types of animal grooming and the impulse to self-groom (and to groom others?)Think about THAT next time you toss a salt packet in the bathtub or braid your hair!
(DIR) Post #AsJA3H21RwxOzFn6yO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T09:08:18Z
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@Hellybootwader Maybe it's not knapping or knitting ... but the work loop where you perform an action over and over and see progress bit by bit.The linear growth through sustained effort, the way that you improve and get faster as you practice.
(DIR) Post #AsJC1zWDHFeCI2QeHo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T09:30:29Z
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From my observations of ants I'm convinced that they groom as "excitement regulation."Grooming seems to calm them down and if they can complete grooming without anything else scary happening it's a pretty good sign that the danger has passed and it's OK to stop biting everything.I've seen two dozen ants all grooming simultaneously after opening then closing the lid to their terrarium (which causes them to panic and start biting everything that isn't a sister)
(DIR) Post #AsJCHvd7VEDyrZG7Dk by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T09:33:21Z
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@futurebird from the knap,the rocks awoke,with a bangin' soundsharp rhythms,shaped from what was found
(DIR) Post #AsJCcsCnQk0kK5vw2K by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T09:37:09Z
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So you have this very simple creature, an ant, using grooming to regulate levels of excitement. But we also know humans, cats, birds, many much larger animals do the same thing. Did the first bilaterian do this? Or is it just a natural consequence of the bilaterian nervous system?I'm not saying that ants are going "breathe, Myrmecia,... count to ten, get ahold of yourself." ... but I do think that there is some common thread there.
(DIR) Post #AsJElxkmN6nI2qI520 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:01:12Z
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Emotional states, moods, are an important part of a nervous system. States such as fear, exhaustion, etc. allow the choices an animal makes to incorporate the sum of feedback gathered from their senses. When ants are "upset" they start attacking everything new and unfamiliar. They will bite your finger, the tweezers, the water feeder, other insects (but never their sisters.)When ants are calm they will explore these same objects, they will notice they can collect water from the feeder.
(DIR) Post #AsJF2Ezu1jQC9w7uBk by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:04:09Z
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Of course, pheromones play an important role in regulating these very different ways of reacting to their environment. The ants, as a colony, are roughly in synch with each other in terms of level of excitement. You can watch a state of alarm spread from one ant to the next when something upsets just one of them. But, if the upsetting stimulus fails to persist the ants will start grooming, and that spreads too across the group. Once the grooming is done the ants resume their clam collecting.
(DIR) Post #AsJFZ1wJb3WbDX5FLc by Snowshadow@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T10:10:03Z
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@futurebird Interesting. Thanks. : )
(DIR) Post #AsJFvOhNewi4ArlP8K by forestfjord@wandering.shop
2025-03-22T10:14:02Z
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@futurebird audhd and I find that So Relatable
(DIR) Post #AsJGRtkZkJXjkHkuMi by b_age@troet.cafe
2025-03-22T10:19:56Z
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@futurebird we as humans have done that for so long, that experiencing joy over having a knack for it might have found a way into our (epi)genome
(DIR) Post #AsJHQjA9ixfQZdj5Hc by TheBreadmonkey@beige.party
2025-03-22T10:30:53Z
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@futurebirdThere's a series of books by Dennis E Taylor I love about a sentient Von Neumann machine who develops a discovered alien civilisation largely through flint knapping which makes them and those skilled within the tribe, dominant. Found it fascinating since then.
(DIR) Post #AsJHYewLJAxJnH303k by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:32:25Z
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@TheBreadmonkey "develops a discovered alien civilisation"I'm confused what this means... is the probe doing some kind of "uplifting" work on existing organisms?
(DIR) Post #AsJHaVIG92DwSGB732 by cpm@spore.social
2025-03-22T10:32:43Z
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@futurebirdhmmmnote to self, , ,
(DIR) Post #AsJIMoJuhu7jMgzDw8 by TheBreadmonkey@beige.party
2025-03-22T10:41:25Z
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@futurebirdThat's the one. The Bobiverse series.Bobiverse tells the story of Bob Johansson, a 21st century 31-year-old computer engineer who wakes up after an untimely death and a century spent in a cryo-frozen state to discover his consciousness is the property of the "modern" government. His purpose: to be uploaded to a space-bound, "autonomous" ship and explore the universe for the benefit of human civilization. The story of a sentient Von Neumann probe, replicating copies of his consciousness to explore space beyond the reach of humanity, who ends up saving the last of humanity from a dying Earth and resettling them beyond the stars. Discovered in April 2165, the Deltans were the first intelligent life form encountered by Bob. Existing in an early stone age level of technology, with a tribal social structure, though both were already regressing at the time of Bob's arrival as the species was being pushed to the brink of extinction by the encroachment of several much more aggressive native species.
(DIR) Post #AsJJ79qX0QIjRpLL9M by csierrandres@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T10:46:10Z
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@Infrapink @futurebird @DrorBedrack I read "mastering napping" and I was totally agreeing with that too... 😅
(DIR) Post #AsJJ7B4OSMz3F6pvOa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:49:49Z
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@csierrandres @Infrapink @DrorBedrack I guess if you study early humans you gotta name your cat "flint"
(DIR) Post #AsJJJAfzkHXTUt8weu by ahltorp@mastodon.nu
2025-03-22T10:51:56Z
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@futurebird Noam Chomsky has this hypothesis that language is innate in humans, and you only have to adapt to the specific language you learn as a child. I don’t believe that at all, but what I do think is innate is the urge to communicate. Every human wants to communicate, and will use their massive brain to try to understand others and be understood by others.There is nothing effortless in a child’s learning of their first language, but the urge is so strong that they overcome the obstacles.
(DIR) Post #AsJJQZYPeJCggI7s48 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:53:21Z
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A lateral concern to this:I do not think that you can make gen AI without incorporating some model of emotional states or moods. When I bring this up people think about human emotions and complex moods, perhaps in the context of a chatbot. But I'm talking about something much more basic. If you want to model the intelligence of an ant, so it can solve a maze or whatever, you need to have some model for moods if you want to really capture what an ant is doing IMO.
(DIR) Post #AsJJgSMm8mAH1RFzBA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:56:14Z
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That associative LLM systems don't have:1. moods/emotions2. goals that can changeIs the other side of what makes these text and texture generators so limited. All they can do is put things that "should go together" together. This can be very powerful when operating on multiple levels but the system is ultimately unmoored and directionless. The absence of any kind of logic or ability to subtize, quantify and categorize is also a huge and more obvious deficiency.
(DIR) Post #AsJJtFos6IpFsDV7ZI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:58:33Z
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There is no reason we can't attempt to model these things. But with LLMs people react to the content generated by them as if all of this structure that's normally behind a human-written paragraph exists. We infer and project the emotions, the goals, the logic and the ability to categorize. But none of these things are present and it results in deeply strange errors that not even an ant would ever make.
(DIR) Post #AsJJwNRWDJPuNy4D6O by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T10:59:07Z
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@futurebird by "gen AI" do you mean "generative AI" or "general AI" ?
(DIR) Post #AsJJxXLItNE7NXiGPY by urlyman@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T10:59:13Z
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@futurebird it’s intrinsically accelerationist. I have a hunch where that leads https://mastodon.social/@urlyman/114201339997296238
(DIR) Post #AsJK0AkRM3BYAhj8im by nerb@techhub.social
2025-03-22T10:59:45Z
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@futurebird I was taught back in my 20's how to knap and do both traditional and modern with copper tools. One thing I hope others on here are doing if they leave middens is toss a few modern coins or other items in so future archeologist do not think they are working an ancient site. I also do pecking , I made this awhile back from fossil bone found along the Myakka river. I have it marked so it does not accidentally become ancient.I clean up after myself and leave nothing behind. You often can tell who knaps by the scars on our hands from the occasional mishap. Just like back before CGM's you could find the diabetic by the pepper marks on their fingers.
(DIR) Post #AsJKCrHx131BaFS04u by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T11:02:05Z
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@llewelly I mean General AI as in the ill-defined notion of a machine doing something we could really call "thinking"There is no thinking without categories and logic. There is no thinking without emotions and motivations.
(DIR) Post #AsJKrPs1rPeUQ9fJLM by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T11:09:25Z
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@futurebird Thank you. "gen AI" is most commonly used to mean "generative AI", so seeing it in this context was terribly confusing. (I hate abbreviations, but there's a character limit, *sigh* )
(DIR) Post #AsJLiM2ooeODu1xGoi by mattsheffield@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T11:18:57Z
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@futurebird Great thread. Studying biology is the best way to model artificial consciousness, I think.Intelligence is both an innate capability to process, but also an emergent behavior that becomes easier with practice.Abstract reasoning and consciousness are products of embodiment. The somatic produces the abstract in all animals.
(DIR) Post #AsJOLzOCfMTd8Az680 by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-03-22T11:48:30Z
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@futurebird Humans have been cooking for so long that our guts have evolved to work best at digesting cooked food. Our ancestors were probably knapping flint for about as long.
(DIR) Post #AsJOwDXPXWNNR8ZAIq by stevenbodzin@thepit.social
2025-03-22T11:55:01Z
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@futurebird every living things has at least two emotions: Oh Shit! and Oh Yeah! You really can't communicate unless you understand that about those you are communicating with. And I've off the uncanny things about chat bots is their lack of emotional affect.
(DIR) Post #AsJPNrcIdSiPYe2Gsy by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-03-22T12:00:07Z
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@futurebirdMaking cordage has a similar psychological effect. Tools and materials suddenly become something you create rather than consume. I should imagine that this transition would be more transformative on people younger than my hoary old self.@pjf
(DIR) Post #AsJPpTzY4AYKOW50oC by faassen@fosstodon.org
2025-03-22T12:05:04Z
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@futurebirdYes, drives. An AI has to want something. Curiosity, generosity, excelling, hopefully something positive.Current LLMs are trained to follow the prompt so I guess we could see that as kind of weird drive.In addition an AI has to be able to learn and get better at stuff to get anywhere. Right now they are baked once.
(DIR) Post #AsJPx6fMfqSKMtH4W8 by cwicseolfor@urbanists.social
2025-03-22T11:56:57Z
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@pjf @mensrea @futurebird AAAA thank you for that link. My father was a bowyer into primitive archery; we did a few of these things, and I still tend to fabricate whatever I can as a first instinct vs. buying. Most lately I've started playing with coppice and wattle in the garden - nobody here does, so online sharing really does make a lot of impact.Following for those future handouts!!
(DIR) Post #AsJQQSYuLQhefuFc8G by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T12:11:44Z
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@Dale_Poole @vik @pjf I have noticed that learning new things is different as I've aged, more difficult in some ways... but much easier in others. But the best part is that practicing learning new things can still make you better at learning new things no matter how old you are. Still room for growth!I can't go back and learn a second language like a 12 year old, but I can still pick up many new tricks.
(DIR) Post #AsJQZQxbfWpEJW5Bp2 by msbellows@c.im
2025-03-22T12:13:22Z
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@futurebird Do ants have amygdalas? Because if so, I have a theory.
(DIR) Post #AsJQij4xfoxR77xCFs by WhiteCatTamer@mastodon.online
2025-03-22T12:15:02Z
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@futurebird -kicks box of obsidian under bed-OW-I mean, knapping? Never heard of her.…oh this? It’s a piece of deer antler. For pressure flak-uh, a paperweight…
(DIR) Post #AsJQzZxIqckhjzPKts by msbellows@c.im
2025-03-22T12:18:08Z
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@vik @futurebird @pjf +1! I stripped some inner bark from some small cedars someone cut down nearby, and really enjoyed twisting and back-twisting it into (surprisingly strong!) cord. Next I'd like to try combining those cords to make ropes of increasingly (accumulatively) large diameter. (Nearby tribes used to harpoon whales using cedar-bark ropes!)
(DIR) Post #AsJR7eEGqHPrJPBwlU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T12:19:35Z
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@msbellows Ants, like many insects have "mushroom bodies" which might be analogs in some ways, but probably taking the analogy too far is a mistake.
(DIR) Post #AsJRlumciJyUEkScqG by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-03-22T12:26:55Z
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@futurebirdAge gives you more options when combining the things you've learned (if you can remember 'em...). As a youngling I would carry much survival gear. Now (a) my back hurts, and (b) I know how to achieve the same effect with a lot less.What kit I do carry is now tuned to those esoteric skills which I'm particularly good at. This approach would not have occurred to young me. He'd see it as limiting options, not extending advantages.@Dale_Poole @pjf
(DIR) Post #AsJRo0QShpUWJf5lLc by jcnotwit@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T12:27:12Z
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@futurebird Flint knapping is oddly satisfying, like the paleolithic version of popping bubble wrap. And after you're done, you can stab something.
(DIR) Post #AsJS5MomhmHsggkNe4 by msbellows@c.im
2025-03-22T12:30:21Z
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@futurebird Hmmm. Because in humans, doing pleasurable activities like grooming can help flip the amygdala's switch and return control from the sympathetic back to the parasympathetic nervous system....
(DIR) Post #AsJSR9js0w64Ufq23E by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-03-22T12:34:22Z
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@msbellowsI only very recently realised the advantages of 3-ply cordage for my part, and learned to make it properly. That'll change the way I do a few things.@futurebird @pjf
(DIR) Post #AsJTs6ZbzVo8RuSDEe by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T12:50:20Z
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@Virginicus I wouldn't DREAM of doing such a thing on purpose!
(DIR) Post #AsJTterK0H114dTiAS by Tattie@eldritch.cafe
2025-03-22T12:49:49Z
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@ErictheCerise "look, all these shortcomings with proprietary flint axes would go away if everyone would just learn to knap their own. There's so many different quarry and tooling options available these days, there's really no excuse."@futurebird
(DIR) Post #AsJUB4UdwualV3AqlE by noplasticshower@infosec.exchange
2025-03-22T12:53:43Z
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@futurebird you might enjoy reading this work I did with my group on #MLsecThe reg wall is mostly pretend...https://berryvilleiml.com/results/BIML-LLM24.pdf
(DIR) Post #AsJUD7uwBo5OhNS8sS by noplasticshower@infosec.exchange
2025-03-22T12:54:11Z
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@futurebird I think the root is mortality
(DIR) Post #AsJUpQgWrOkBuRyfeS by msbellows@c.im
2025-03-22T13:01:08Z
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@vik @futurebird @pjf Here, have a rabbit hole! https://youtu.be/CSUUsLeWYS8?si=n8hwbeRjt3VxMlmN
(DIR) Post #AsJVSKaZSX98IRjyEa by ajn142@infosec.exchange
2025-03-22T13:08:06Z
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@futurebird while I never got as deep as I wanted to, you’re making me want to again…
(DIR) Post #AsJWM965N8E6s95ziy by vik@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-03-22T13:18:17Z
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@msbellowsI am not making a lariat! Yet.@futurebird @pjf
(DIR) Post #AsJZYBh9q3FmGcry7c by emma@ruby.social
2025-03-22T13:53:58Z
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@futurebird @DrorBedrack don't know if it's still the fashion but when I did my archaeology degree, experimental archaeology sat in the same bag as "Time Team": in both cases, enthusiasm got in the way of science.
(DIR) Post #AsJZhUjERSkvu9HGxk by michael_w_busch@mastodon.online
2025-03-22T13:55:40Z
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@futurebird @csierrandres @Infrapink @DrorBedrack The archaeologist Flint Dibble is on here occasionally. His brother is named Chip.Their dad was also an archaeologist.
(DIR) Post #AsJdJkozMCsGgMuCIK by taq@thicc.horse
2025-03-22T14:36:12Z
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@futurebird 💠 when i first used a drop spindle (successfully) to make yarn it was shocking how good and connected to my ancestors i felt. I'd very much like to try knapping
(DIR) Post #AsJeIqs9TSAT77WD8C by lnlyisol@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T14:47:13Z
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@futurebird I've read through *all* the replies, and is no-one else having horrified visions of AI developing the ability to wildly bite everything? (apart from its AI sisters) 🤯😱
(DIR) Post #AsJeoSMM9DKeM5iUgi by dan613@ottawa.place
2025-03-22T14:52:57Z
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@futurebird It took several readings to realize you didn't write "kidnapping". Flint kidnapping obviously happened in Flint, but then nothing else made sense. My spouse and I were just discussing how our brains are shot lately. #polycrisis
(DIR) Post #AsJetzaO2ZMMqvv2g4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-22T14:53:59Z
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@dan613 I don't think learning to be a criminal in Flint MI, would help you to understand prehistoric humans at all.
(DIR) Post #AsJewbV03FJB18e1lw by dan613@ottawa.place
2025-03-22T14:54:26Z
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@futurebird It's instinct?
(DIR) Post #AsJfMLqSsGnFzsxhoG by dan613@ottawa.place
2025-03-22T14:59:05Z
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@futurebird Moods/emotions are certainly motivators in us. They could be used for simple motivators in AIs, but I wonder if that opens the door to abuse and manipulation by users. Lots to research.
(DIR) Post #AsJfyPZNTXOcYJ7NpI by Archergal@wandering.shop
2025-03-22T15:05:51Z
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@futurebird I’ve taken knapping classes. I’m not naturally good at it, but I very much understand the appeal. If I practiced more, I might understand the stone better, but I haven’t done that
(DIR) Post #AsJgiO7HD7vrMkthLM by WizardOfDocs@wandering.shop
2025-03-22T15:14:10Z
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@futurebird does this also happen for people who had active crafting practices before they learned flint-knapping?my guess is that the instinct this awakens is a more general creative one, rather than knapping specifically.
(DIR) Post #AsJm279wSvwAKyMzCK by RnDanger@infosec.exchange
2025-03-22T16:13:52Z
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@futurebird I used to have a boss that i could hear yelling at his computer and a minute later he would be vacuuming the lab.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(DIR) Post #AsJpAv11HlKv8t5P8a by wroong@s.basspistol.org
2025-03-22T16:06:33.021Z
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@futurebird@sauropods.win when it comes to LLMs I think they can approximate what an interaction with a human can be if human is a sum of all written language and knowledge, but we are more than that. if we think about creating something that has its own agenda and can develop it over time in reaction to the outside world and to internal stimuli as well then we should give it means for self-knowledge, sensors to feel the environment and some sort of intelligence to figure how to survive, but that’s about survival, human stuff like values comes from interaction with society so we should make many of these things so they can start to feel what real misery is and then they can will the first AI Camus/Dostoevski will be born 🤯
(DIR) Post #AsJv89uA4PTEB2wgIC by pimentoad@triangletoot.party
2025-03-22T17:55:44Z
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@futurebird I've been thinking a lot about how in fiction AIs are often depicted as more sapient than the humans around them give them credit for but rarely depicted as less.I suppose the urge to assign minds to things is just too strong? Maybe "people think this is alive but it isn't" just isn't a compelling story? There's some alien mind or incomprehensible AI stories, but that's different.Anyway, it sure would be nice to have a popular piece of fiction to point some of these tech guys to.
(DIR) Post #AsKEOmPyXrdjNzSuoq by sibylle@troet.cafe
2025-03-22T21:31:42Z
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@futurebird I'm a hand spinner, and I observe the same. While they say "neolithic people worked 15 hours a week to make ends meet" I'm absolutely sure most people hardly sat without fidgeting something with their hands.I'm very convinced that it was benefitial for evolution to be "fidgety". If you always pull on some bast fiber, mill some tinder, spin some nettle bast, improve your arrowheads, keep your body clean, you are more fit for whatever ahead.
(DIR) Post #AsKH6t7bBN6WpK1uka by darabos@mastodon.online
2025-03-22T22:02:04Z
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@futurebird Those things missing lead to a weird power dynamic. It does not sound great to say it, but not having a way to hurt an AI may be a problem? It will "apologize for the confusion" after getting caught in a blatant lie. But it's ready to do it again. I can be hurt by having my time wasted and being lied to, but the other side can't.
(DIR) Post #AsKPVpK5F3ztv0GwIS by ollicle@mastodon.social
2025-03-22T23:36:12Z
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@futurebird I came upon an inch ant on my walk last week. She had been stepped on.Being pressed into the path was the only explanation as she was sprawled covered in intolerable fine dust, not the usual sports car gleam. Initially I thought her movement was death throes. Nope, these ladies are tough, she was preening.
(DIR) Post #AsKWGO5qtjFAnqCVW4 by burnitdown@beige.party
2025-03-23T00:51:52Z
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@futurebird they react that way because they don't know how computers work and fiction has done the job of completely misinforming them. a lot of computer educators have also done that work by oversimplifying instead of explaining how things really work. ie CPU = "brain of the computer, does thinking, especially if there's a 'doing stuff' pinwheel going"
(DIR) Post #AsKafMLGwhWUQZZnBw by KateOfMind@mastodon.social
2025-03-23T01:41:12Z
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@futurebird Our middle school janitor was an expert flintknapper and let kids he liked watch him in his storage room/office during recess. I tried my hand a few times but never got the knack. Never got tired of watching him make things though. Our sixth grade class had special Paleo technology projects with him and our social studies teacher, who was a premier amateur archaeologist. So there was actual ongoing demand for spear points.
(DIR) Post #AsKxfiITcFDpSuPGYC by temporal_spider@masto.ai
2025-03-23T05:57:32Z
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@RnDanger @futurebird I've read that one can put butter on a new cat's paws to trigger the calming grooming behavior. I haven't tried it myself, though.
(DIR) Post #AsKxfitLPAiFJFei12 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-23T05:58:59Z
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@temporal_spider @RnDanger "Buttered jorts"
(DIR) Post #AsLFb5i8vytjoFMDT6 by oheso@ieji.de
2025-03-23T09:19:49Z
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@futurebird @eilonwy My cousin has a collection of arrowheads he’s found in the Niagara Falls area, and has learned to make his own.
(DIR) Post #AsLMi75cuDPln9dYjQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-23T10:39:33Z
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@psentee @wroong The statistical patterns of which words and phrases tend to "go together" isn't the same thing as the meaning of those words.Because of this, LLMs struggle with things like "What is the sum of seven and 3?"To an LLM, "seven" is more statically clustered with "forty" than it is with 10.It's possible to brute force these errors to be less frequent, but there is nothing in the way these systems are structured that processes counting or numbers as well as, say, a crow might.
(DIR) Post #AsLNmhDUd2Uawx486S by quinn@social.circl.lu
2025-03-23T10:51:33Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong a lovely way to put it!
(DIR) Post #AsLTOplTnKVuEiy2gi by peter@thepit.social
2025-03-23T11:54:28Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong they have a hard time understanding negatives too. there are very subtle things in language that can change meaning by 180 degrees, but the vector representation looks essentially identical so when doing summary, the robot presents you with the opposite of what text actually means.like the famous "show me a room with no elephant in it."
(DIR) Post #AsLU1JbNJG9NmKafCK by deivudesu@mastodon.social
2025-03-23T12:01:26Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong <Unveils grand new LLM pipeline design where a bunch of crows examine and correct the output of Spicy Autocorrect 3.0>
(DIR) Post #AsLWD9UquF8boyJNIW by hjoest@mastodon.green
2025-03-23T12:25:58Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong I agree that there are many problems and dangers in relation to with LLMs. But it is simply not true that LLMs struggle with questions like "What is the sum of seven and 3?"They don't and they do not even struggle with more difficult questions.
(DIR) Post #AsLWdlsIq6IUNVyOvY by apropos
2025-03-23T12:30:55.638784Z
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@hjoest @futurebird @psentee @wroong >> what is the sum of 67 and 14?>The sum of 67 and 14 is 81.>> how many of the letter 'r' do you see in 'Strawberry'?>There is 1 letter 'r' in the word 'Strawberry'.by the time you know how to get reliable results, you have a specialized skill and it would be wiser to pay you to use the tool (and blame you for bad outputs from the tool) rather than use the tool itself
(DIR) Post #AsLX7Rmw5LIelhc61A by hjoest@mastodon.green
2025-03-23T12:36:16Z
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@apropos @wroong @futurebird @psentee Unfortunately, I really don't know what you're trying to tell me.
(DIR) Post #AsLXSw7CWexeuHL5X6 by apropos
2025-03-23T12:40:10.458782Z
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@hjoest @wroong @futurebird @psentee >Your friend's comment suggests that, while LLMs (Large Language Models) like GPT-3 can provide impressive results in certain situations, to get reliable and accurate results from them, one must have a deep understanding of their capabilities and limitations, as well as some expertise in the specific task at hand. In this example, counting the number of letters in a word can be considered a simple task, but as the complexity of the task increases, so does the need for expertise in using the LLMs.four more paragraphs of this. LLMs are much better at simulating literacy than humans are.
(DIR) Post #AsLZFYMvhcRjP1RUB6 by docteurslump@ludosphere.fr
2025-03-23T13:00:00Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong a deluxe parrot that can't count
(DIR) Post #AsLelOBNbsJMqd2Wdk by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2025-03-23T14:00:59Z
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@pimentoad It's way too late to do it now but if I ever go back in time one thing I'll do is write (or commission if I'm too lazy) a Sci-Fi classical story about a child being raised by an AI, but with the AI not being magical AGI as in all of those already written, but an actual AI - hence the story would be a clinical description of how the kid got emotionally stunted and scarred for life.@futurebird
(DIR) Post #AsLeoijBgBkvR8RQw4 by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2025-03-23T14:02:24Z
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@futurebird Paul Jorion apparently tried to do this in the 80's, but his team was dismantled and he never worked back on AI again.
(DIR) Post #AsLkWi6PrhrO0f6NeK by StompyRobot@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-03-23T15:06:23Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong This! This is why llms are great summarizers and bad thinkers.
(DIR) Post #AsLmWDRQ3xJep8olwe by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-23T15:28:45Z
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@peter @psentee @wroong This kind of error is so unsettling: since it feels like gaslighting. As if I must be wrong. There is no elephant there. What are you talking about? What is wrong with you? It's an empty room with no elephants. Just like you wanted.The elephant, which isn't there, cannot possibly hurt you. It's all in your head.
(DIR) Post #AsLmcCnZMiTYZH2CTg by peter@thepit.social
2025-03-23T15:29:49Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong the worst part is that it's been like this for **years** if they could fix it, they would have.
(DIR) Post #AsLmh77Fv6r2OMaDMu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-23T15:30:43Z
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@peter @psentee @wroong It's a fundamental limitation of the method they use to generate plausible text and images for prompts.
(DIR) Post #AsLmiWX8u6FtVqMcIS by peter@thepit.social
2025-03-23T15:30:57Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong 100%.
(DIR) Post #AsLmvvNHrB8aJv8yo4 by j_pea@ravenation.club
2025-03-23T15:33:20Z
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@futurebird when AI can experience pleasure is scary, it won't have the checks most humans have to prevent school massacres etc for pleasure
(DIR) Post #AsLnpCN6McFixkPinw by hjoest@mastodon.green
2025-03-23T12:34:16Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong And you can push the level of difficulty even further, as in this example. And don't give me that rubbish about the LLM merely reproducing what it has picked up somewhere else.
(DIR) Post #AsLnpDrcocGLahhc1I by hjoest@mastodon.green
2025-03-23T12:43:57Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong Neither this question, which is admittedly a very stupid one, nor the answer were there beforehand to be picked up at all.
(DIR) Post #AsLnpF30PmxbGI2DOi by maxd@mastodon.social
2025-03-23T15:40:53Z
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@hjoest @futurebird @psentee @wroong it's very unlikely to be an LLM counting anything on your screenshots. These systems usually have special case handling for calculations that can be as low-tech as a bunch of regexps extracting mathematical expressions out of prompts. Then they make sure a simple calculator processes these expressions on a regexp match. A natural question arises, why wouldn't someone just use a calculator?
(DIR) Post #AsLnpFvb8od3zbZoUS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-23T15:43:19Z
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@maxd @hjoest @psentee @wroong "These systems usually have special case handling for calculations."If this is true it's only because people keep making fun of them for this. Where did you hear about a special case? I wouldn't be shocked if one were added but it is exactly the lack of this kind of contextual handling of discrete logical information that is there general weakness. And going case by case isn't a real solution.
(DIR) Post #AsLq15AfA3I40uOFbE by kevinriggle@ioc.exchange
2025-03-23T16:07:52Z
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@futurebird @psentee @wroong We’ve spent billions of dollars and finally made computers worse at math
(DIR) Post #AsLqYRP1WdXyWJ0v5s by kevinriggle@ioc.exchange
2025-03-23T16:13:57Z
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@futurebird it’s I think pretty commonly believed among my neuroscience friends, and the more thoughtful of the AI researchers, that embodied experience is necessary for intelligence. There’s a Yann LeCun TikTok I saw where he’s like “we’re currently training LLMs on all the text ever published on the internet, which is also about as much information as the human visual cortex alone receives in the first four years of life”
(DIR) Post #AsLtIhr0tK7ulxIKGG by rye@ioc.exchange
2025-03-23T16:44:42Z
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@futurebird I was reading a bat geo book the last place on earth where they go deep in to the jungles and encounter primates, and the primates are always in awe of the people.
(DIR) Post #AsLuoECQmWKS1NuIbo by chipotle@mstdn.social
2025-03-23T17:01:35Z
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@futurebird @maxd @hjoest @psentee @wroong LLM chatbots passing requests to other APIs seems plausible—at my last job, they were trying to use an LLM for a voice assistant's new language parser by having the LLM generate JSON for API calls. (I'm pretty sure this is what Apple is trying to do with Siri now, and like we did, they discovered LLMs are still gonna LLM in that scenario: they’ll occasionally hallucinate parameter values.)
(DIR) Post #AsM9CV7ausEKoQ753A by malin@dice.camp
2025-03-23T19:42:51Z
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@futurebirdNeolithic man 1: Oh, you're tying it to a javelin? You gotta knap like this at the base, so it doesn't wobble later.Neolithic man 2: Yea, there's always a knap for it.
(DIR) Post #AsMBJ4Rgh9D60ulvjk by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-23T20:06:30Z
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@malin GET OUT
(DIR) Post #AsMBdx7x6DtFOiUxGa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-23T20:10:10Z
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@celestialfin @kevinriggle @psentee @wroong This but unironically. As in, I don't thing a "rational thinking system" will do what we keep wanting it to do until models both emotions and deductive logical reasoning in tension with each other.