Post As7os0iS12VVCfe1aq by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
(DIR) More posts by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
(DIR) Post #As6n6Lmq4sqLXbRmm8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T09:54:37Z
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If you enjoy factual take downs of poorly thought-out evolutionary biology theories you'll like this video that takes apart a fringe theory about neanderthals being some kind of evil ape super-predators. I think it's really sad that neanderthals aren't around anymore, I think we could learn a lot by interacting with humans who were more significantly different from anyone who is alive today.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCsr7W0x6YU
(DIR) Post #As6nEVhL6z6Ib4lXSC by davep@infosec.exchange
2025-03-16T09:56:03Z
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@futurebird They live on in my genes, apparently.
(DIR) Post #As6nWKap8fSbMrDRD6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T09:59:18Z
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With "theories" like this about human origins it's worth thinking about what need such folk tales fill. That's what this theory is, a folk tale. For some people this lore is needed because they don't like (human) evolution and neanderthals kind of force us to realize that, yes, humans also evolved just like every other living thing. For others I think it's about some deep impulse to separate everything into in-groups and out-groups. But, there are no clear borders.
(DIR) Post #As6ngsm6uD5GHFWgbI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T10:01:13Z
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@davep Yeah but at 5 percent TOPS (whatever "5 percent") means. Many people have a few neanderthal ancestors, but they are greatly outnumbered by the skinny sapiens sapiens ancestors.
(DIR) Post #As6oe89rM5Vt4Xt13g by drexer@ciberlandia.pt
2025-03-16T10:11:54Z
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@futurebird it's really interesting how much pseudoscience springs up around neanderthals...There was a lot of neanderthal science fiction speculation in the past and I feel like that probably set the seeds for so much of this crazy speculation nowadays (I am currently reading the manga adaptation of the Minerva series from UK scifi books, and it's amazing how much of the fascination with previous species of humans is a common thread).On the other hand it's a theme ripe for picking and speculation so perhaps that's why it's used by everyone.
(DIR) Post #As6okRuqoCQY5VsZ5U by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T10:13:04Z
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I can sympathize with being annoyed or disappointed that our closest relatives are other primates. I'm not a huge fan of primates generally. Mostly because they are similar to people, but different enough that the less ... admirable traits stand out more.It's hard not to look at chimps and think of how badly they fail at being human. This is also very silly since we fail very badly at being chimps (and chimps might even be able to appreciate this... certainly cats can ...)
(DIR) Post #As6pAPsizjMPJ9GbIW by quinn@social.circl.lu
2025-03-16T10:17:42Z
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@futurebird i like bonobos, they give me some hope for the extended family.
(DIR) Post #As6pYO0DdIJIQiCZHs by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T10:22:02Z
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@futurebird It has been forever since I read about that scientist who lived among apes for some years, but I think somewhat was actually said to the effect of what you just said: the apes felt the human was kind of bad at being an ape.I think you have a good point besides. It's a bit of the uncanny valley effect perhaps. If we were bug beings then we might find our evolutionary similar cousins to be unpleasant.
(DIR) Post #As6rOMRUmIcebVJ7oG by rayhindle@mastodon.social
2025-03-16T10:42:36Z
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@futurebird I remember, years ago, Alan Titchmarsh being made-up like a Neanderthal and walking the streets of London, No one noticed!
(DIR) Post #As6sEEbd9vcXMEmd6G by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T10:52:01Z
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@quinn I get annoyed since they are always having sex over everything. It's just gross. Presumably they see it differently, but I blush when I see ants mating.
(DIR) Post #As6sLiqD8yz59pApFI by magicalthinking@noauthority.social
2025-03-16T10:53:29Z
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@futurebird @quinn Mandrils bums?
(DIR) Post #As6v3J9cD03u8mA1z6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T11:23:44Z
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@magicalthinking @quinn Mandrills don't squick me out since they don't seem like little hairy people, they are majestic and goofy in their own way.
(DIR) Post #As6vN9a3Vq3YExzVxo by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T11:27:18Z
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@futurebird from about age 10 to about age 30, I genuinely thought primates were among the most interesting of animals. Ironically, or appropriately, I don't know which, for most of that part of my life, animals were only a tertiary interest of mine. As I became more interested in animals generally, I became much less interested in primates specifically.
(DIR) Post #As6vmdULS8ISEnTGQC by magicalthinking@noauthority.social
2025-03-16T11:31:58Z
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@futurebird @quinn Dat ass tho.
(DIR) Post #As6vn5nSCgDe2Acv5s by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2025-03-16T11:26:08Z
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@futurebird The idea of different species of humans is bonkers¹ and I don't know any book² that tackles correctly the wrecking ball that it is to lazy antiracism...¹ not as "factually false" of course, but as "doesn't fit with the informal consensus about what humanity is"² except of course Vercors' "Les animaux dénaturés", written at a time where racism wasn't really condemned, and which is consequently a bit ambiguous on that aspect
(DIR) Post #As6vn6nqSi7t9fokLI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T11:31:57Z
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@lienrag I agree. It's not trivial to grapple with people who are not sapiens sapiens. I think either they just become too much like regular humans, or authors try to make analogies about racism or war or bigotry which can be either good or bad in their political implications but miss what I think is really interesting. Neanderthals *were* people but they also were not like any people who are alive today at a fundamental level. We have no idea what that could mean.
(DIR) Post #As6vnEd9MMKBQosJma by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2025-03-16T11:29:05Z
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@futurebird Of course, the fact that we don't know (and probably never will) the culture and philosophy of any of the human species in the period (our included) doesn't help.I guess that in a way "flowers for Algernon" does tackle an aspect of the question, but there's so much more...
(DIR) Post #As6w04kRPh7sXwPNey by Tattie@eldritch.cafe
2025-03-16T11:34:16Z
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@futurebird imagine being like the one ace bonobo@quinn
(DIR) Post #As6w8EpDpZbg7IXLMW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T11:35:47Z
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@lienrag If I'm honest I just want to meet some real neanderthals. And not some genetic reconstruction ... Creatures are more than their genome. You couldn't "meet" a neanderthal without the context of their culture and history.Maybe they would be scary, maybe impossible to really communicate with, maybe they would just be like the person next door. Probably a mix of all of these things.I do think one book comes close: The Terraformers by Annalee Newitz who is on here I think @annaleen
(DIR) Post #As6wJhUDbqGmC3B6ps by IngaLovinde@embracing.space
2025-03-16T11:37:46Z
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@futurebird wait, aren't we partially neanderthals too? It's just that instead of two separate groups only one mixed group exists now?
(DIR) Post #As6wNarGCAtmnIoPi4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T11:38:34Z
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@lienrag @annaleen I read the book last year and enjoyed it a lot. The neanderthals are more on the "just like us" end of things, but they do have some very different emotional and moral landscapes. I especially enjoyed the neanderthal who got exhausted from how much the sapiens sapiens would keep running their mouths. It hinted at a different pace of thinking, more considered and deliberate. But, also just slower and less excitable and bold.
(DIR) Post #As6wZ9FoeTyYeno8OG by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2025-03-16T11:40:37Z
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@futurebird I know it's not the same thing but reading "The Darwin Experiment" (the quite disappointing manga which never actually fulfill any of its promises, instead reverting to boring manga tropes) I kind of regret that humanzee experiments weren't pursued further...Of course they're completely unethical and I would never advocate to actually redo them, but what we could learn from it is so fascinating !Faustian temptation can get strong sometimes...@annaleen
(DIR) Post #As6wsLwVhTCjVow29Q by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T11:44:08Z
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@IngaLovinde Some but not all humans have a small part of more recent neanderthal ancestry. 700,000 years back we all have some common ancestor.When sapiens sapiens moved out of Africa they encountered humans (neanderthals and others) who left before and blended but mostly replaced them. We don't know how this went down exactly.But, it's not like anyone has more than the equivalent of one or two great-great-great-great ancestors who would be neanderthals. That's my understanding?
(DIR) Post #As6xyEuaqzaLOjPR1E by IngaLovinde@embracing.space
2025-03-16T11:56:21Z
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@futurebird apparently Africans have it too? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-research-expands-neanderthals-genetic-legacy-modern-humans-180974099/And I'm not sure if "1.7-1.8% of neanderthal DNA" should be interpreted as "equivalent of one or two sixth-generation ancestors". It says that 1.7-1.8% of the total genome is distinctively neanderthal; but in order to draw conclusions about percentage of ancestors, we'd need to know what part of the total genome is distinctively non-neanderthal.Popsci articles like to repeat that humans share 90% of genome with cats, so this would probably imply the hard 10% limit on the total of distinctively human (neanderthal or not) DNA, and 1.7-1.8% of 10% is the equivalent of one great-grandparent or one grandparent; and that's a low estimate. But my calculations are probably wrong.
(DIR) Post #As6y0DurWhsutBTt0y by epicdemiologist@wandering.shop
2025-03-16T11:56:37Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @annaleen I recommend "Dance of the Tiger" [Den Svarta Tigern] by Björn Kurtén. He's a Finnish paleontologist, but he also wrote at least one good novel (this one)!
(DIR) Post #As733AXL2yzV30hZey by puercomal@sfba.social
2025-03-16T12:53:14Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @annaleen I recently read The Shadow Hunter by Pat Murphy, it attempts to go there.
(DIR) Post #As79psKo6tciVdRsUi by michael_w_busch@mastodon.online
2025-03-16T14:09:18Z
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@futurebird I am bothered by the phrasing of the Neanderthals as being extinct since all of us are descended from them, just with varying amounts of Neanderthal DNA still present. (And likewise for the Denisovans and probably a few other early human groups).
(DIR) Post #As7HsYHHw7k8o3adVI by quinn@social.circl.lu
2025-03-16T15:39:26Z
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@futurebird i suppose i don't really have a problem with the sex, i just really like how supportive their society is.
(DIR) Post #As7Sl0L0pD3d0ow3pA by waltwooton@spartanburg.social
2025-03-16T17:41:18Z
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@futurebirdWe are hybrids of hybrids of hybrids, all the way back to Pan. Where you draw the lines depends on whether you are a lumper or a splitter.
(DIR) Post #As7jmOKQoQKYvbuXR2 by michael_w_busch@mastodon.online
2025-03-16T14:12:22Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @futurebird Never try to wrestle a chimpanzee.
(DIR) Post #As7jmPw2q40nuYW5hY by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T20:04:38Z
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@michael_w_busch @futurebird Apes have significantly more muscle strength to body weight ratio than we do. It's part of the cost of so many of our calories going to our brains instead of our muscles from what I've read.
(DIR) Post #As7jmR1OndtBHS1sga by michael_w_busch@mastodon.online
2025-03-16T20:06:29Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @futurebird Chimps win at strength contests.Humans win at distance running.Consequence of us having evolved to run around throwing things at stuff.
(DIR) Post #As7jmS156JEGMkt8pU by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T20:13:34Z
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@michael_w_busch @futurebird We're not going to beat most animals at running either, but when you pick them specifically, yeah, chimps definitely don't have the legs that we do. But then there are some apes like patas monkeys which apparently are faster than humans. Apparently even gorillas still are going to beat out many of those of us who aren't athletes. (Even assuming they aren't swinging from trees which can go even faster still.)But then if you look at animals built for running, even if you limit to two legs, most are still going to beat humans. For example, I doubt even the best athletes will beat out the average ostrich.We're built to use our brains more than our muscles. Which is why it's so ironic that humanity seems not to want to do that very thing these days...
(DIR) Post #As7jmSqU1CLUwAwBwu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T20:52:03Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch Can an ostrich run for ten miles?
(DIR) Post #As7k1cQ4hjkkyToNI8 by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T20:54:50Z
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@futurebird @michael_w_busch Apparently yes. Supposedly with taking breaks they could go something like 180 miles running a bit at a time.However, one key thing to pause and take note of here is an ostrich wouldn't. They're also tuned not to waste those calories, so they generally only run to escape from danger.
(DIR) Post #As7kNPD0VD2aNB5VzM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T20:58:47Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch I know I keep bringing this up but humans are kind of big as far as animals go. (so are ostriches) are we really THAT physically mid, or even... just not great at all.I guess throwing things is cool. Not many animals can do that!*gets smacked in the head by a sharp shooter fish, a trap jaw ant and some kind of hoverfly egg in quick succession.*
(DIR) Post #As7kmfrDjxhJFNwk5I by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T21:03:20Z
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@futurebird @michael_w_busch I've read and heard over and over that our bodies literally do dedicate more calories and energy to our brains than to our muscles relative to animals. It makes sense too. To match a similar sized ape we would have to either take in a lot more energy per unit of mass to have the same capacity physically while also maintaining our mental capabilities or compromise on one or the other.Since we used our brains to find ways to use physical strength less, it sort of makes sense that we ultimately evolved to take the compromise option. Less food required, more surviveability (especially during winters) before humans developed enough to (once again using our brains) develop agriculture.
(DIR) Post #As7o8g264IyW1aDWS0 by vanderZwan@vis.social
2025-03-16T21:28:46Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch @futurebird I've also seen the suggestion that we wouldn't have the fine motor skills in our hands if we were as strong as chimpansees(Also, while our brains require a lot of calories, apparently Neanderthals managed to evolve both brains and muscle mass to the point of requiring over twice as many calories a day as we do, which worked just fine for a while. Until that became a selection pressure against them. There's a pbs eons episode about it on YT)
(DIR) Post #As7o8ghvYmR47JmveS by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T21:33:47Z
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@vanderZwan @michael_w_busch @futurebird That would explain why neanderthals were so much fewer and swallowed up into our own subspecies so quickly. It would have been a lot harder to truly sustain those requirements.It's popular to act like neanderthals were dumb because they were "cave men" but, in fact, they were quite intelligent (supposedly they taught our subspecies a lot of ways to make better tools and hunt better.) Of course, people confuse knowledge and intelligence for being the same thing when they aren't. (By that same token, humans 10,000 years from now -- if our species lives that long -- will think we were ignoramuses for not knowing how to create such super simple exotic energy sources as they've been using forever and bending spacetime or something, lol.)
(DIR) Post #As7o8hVuYwPycLAqYq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T21:40:54Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch Well, if other people are projecting their philosophical ideals on to this question of neanderthals vs. sapiens sapiens I'll mention my pet notion:sapiens sapiens could figure out how to live in much larger groups than neanderthals, something, maybe reproductive speed, maybe all those calories, maybe a commitment to living in small groups on vast tracts of land limited neanderthals. They couldn't get into the 100s, let alone the 1000s
(DIR) Post #As7oRrOu1khUmd21ZY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T21:44:25Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch Contemporary humans, even deeply anti-social ones know dozens of people well, and a hundred or two as acquaintances. But even more important I don't *need* to "know" someone to work with them, to ride in their cab, or help them with a math problem, or help them find the Library. Maybe neanderthals needed to know people to work with them? Then all these little gregarious people show up and they have less and less space.Just a speculation.
(DIR) Post #As7oSqE1snFRQZPhaq by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T21:44:30Z
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@futurebird @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch Yeah, it was just striking me that with those higher requirements it might also explain why neanderthals apparently taught us a lot in regards to tools and such. We were able to utilize our higher numbers to simplify things more. A group of ten warriors with worse spears can still take out a wild boar or something a whole lot better than a group of three with better weapons just from sheer numbers. So they were less driven to find ways to make those better tools perhaps, whereas the neanderthals simply had to just to survive.
(DIR) Post #As7ofYJbmbvVe45Hgu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T21:46:51Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch People do not think enough about the berries and insects part of the diet back then. We know both groups of people were omnivores from their teeth. Oh and all those shellfish.
(DIR) Post #As7os0iS12VVCfe1aq by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-03-16T21:49:05Z
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@futurebird @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch Oh sure, I just am not sure what sort of tool usage we'd be talking about there for those. No doubt there were even plants they'd figured out to eat. No doubt a lot of early, wilder varieties of stuff we eat today were figured out the hard way.I could imagine things like grinding up plants that were harder to eat (oats?) might have involved tool usage if they did.It's just in this discussion it was simpler to point to warriors with spears. I wouldn't be surprised if tool making might have included, say, baskets and such as well.
(DIR) Post #As7zavP1cH8rIUc7HM by qurlyjoe@mstdn.social
2025-03-16T23:49:10Z
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@futurebird I’ve read several books about Neanderthals and their lives, but I don’t recall much about their vocal abilities. They could definitely vocalize but it’s not clear they had language as we think of it now. This lack would limit their abilities to pass on lore and learning. They had tools, and glue, and string, probably fur/skin clothing. But could they teach skills other than by showing? @nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch
(DIR) Post #As7zfZx0njS8DIjKEq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-16T23:50:09Z
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@qurlyjoe @nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_buschThey had to teach each other. They also had awls which means they were punching holes for sewing.
(DIR) Post #As80a1IyHn3xGeulkW by qurlyjoe@mstdn.social
2025-03-17T00:00:19Z
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@futurebird “Kindred: Neanderthal life, love, death, and art”, by Rebecca Wragg Sykes, is excellent. @nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch
(DIR) Post #As81AX07uzDZzpVghM by MishaVanMollusq@sfba.social
2025-03-17T00:06:54Z
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@futurebird @nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch I have a notion they could only produce a child every 5 years minimum, like the Modern Bonobo.A human can become pregnant again just months after delivering a child.
(DIR) Post #As87dgbdsw8juPLKdM by d_j_fitzgerald@bitbang.social
2025-03-17T01:19:25Z
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@futurebird @nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch what do you think about the theory that Neanderthals never went away, and melded into the human population to help make modern H. Sapiens?
(DIR) Post #As8kpdoXzHDQwB4RgO by vanderZwan@vis.social
2025-03-17T08:38:34Z
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@futurebird @nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch if the calories do turn out to be a major factor for filtering out most of the "Neanderthal features" in our DNA¹, then aren't we basically describing the 80/20 but applied to evolution?¹as @michael_w_busch pointed out: Neanderthals and sapiens sapiens interbred. So arguably the discussion should be framed as which genetic features were selected for within the hominid lineage, rather than as two truly different species of which one went extinct.
(DIR) Post #As8mgXffer4VBdhwuG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-03-17T08:59:22Z
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@vanderZwan @nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch Things like basic disease resistance, or allergies could be huge.