Post ArDMWnHpcvBoPRwtUW by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
(DIR) More posts by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
(DIR) Post #ArD46CVZwkhfdiY5Ds by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T12:41:10Z
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Saw a post the other day: "I'm so glad I learned what a parallelogram is and NOT how to do my taxes in school."Generally, people who say such things don't know what a parallelogram is OR how to do their taxes. They have been failed twice. They were presented with the signifiers of a liberal arts education but received none of the substance.This isn't their fault and replacing alienating signifiers of a liberals arts education with signifiers "trades training" won't do what they think.
(DIR) Post #ArD4UGPp4UcShvKYOO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T12:45:35Z
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In some schools education is just ticking of boxes for topics. The classes are too large, the experienced teachers too few, the administration is too focused on switching textbooks every two years to "solve the problem" rather than cultivating schools as learning communities. Those who are most invested in teaching, leave and find places where they can really teach. "I'm so glad I learned how do 'do my taxes' in school and not how to assess if an argument is true or false for myself."
(DIR) Post #ArD4iEspZ4Nw0fYwq0 by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-02-17T12:48:02Z
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@futurebird And they don't even really teach us how to do our taxes.I learned basic accounting (though I sure don't remember much) but that isn't even really the life skill people need (budgeting.)
(DIR) Post #ArD4nXpKYo4UD5SIYi by louisffourie@c.im
2025-02-17T12:49:03Z
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@futurebird Yes!! That meme has been irritating me for a long time.
(DIR) Post #ArD4oZzU08DhD6hJGi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T12:49:17Z
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Also, and I have thought about this, because I take education very seriously, making lesson plans on "how to do your taxes" for 8th graders (when you generally learn about parallelograms) sounds like such a horrible idea. The kids would be bored out of their eyeballs. I do teach my seniors about things like banking, loans, reserves etc. but many "applied math" topics are boring and difficult to adapt into excellent lessons.
(DIR) Post #ArD4talkXB1d4ZfEXY by Crow@pagan.plus
2025-02-17T12:50:07Z
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@futurebird formal logic is certainly a class that needs to be taught in freshman year.
(DIR) Post #ArD4uYpNEpZjLBoyWG by Kierkegaanks@beige.party
2025-02-17T12:50:18Z
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@futurebird Also, as a private citizen you shouldn’t have to file complicated taxes. The dept of education is not a branch of intuit corruption
(DIR) Post #ArD4xJNz6gGuJlK14K by marymessall@mendeddrum.org
2025-02-17T12:50:45Z
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@futurebird Tax law and tax accounting software have changed a LOT since I was in school. The definition of a parallelogram is still the same.
(DIR) Post #ArD53WTHMuGcdflBGy by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T12:51:58Z
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Also... what the heck do people mean by "how to do taxes" anyway? It's an *algorithm* How could that take more than 10min to understand?When I see that meme what I take from it is that a lot of people remember the word "parallelogram" from math class and they don't know what the significance of it was or why they had to be so stressed out about it. They also recognize that taxes involve doing math. Maybe they suppose that it's through math that rich people pay so little tax?
(DIR) Post #ArD59va4vMb2FiziUK by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T12:52:55Z
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@futurebird Really, doing taxes shouldn't be anywhere remotely as complicated as it actually is. Numerous attempts have been made to simplify the process and there is absolutely no reason it couldn't be. There is very little doubt that the only reason this keeps from happening in because of the companies that profit enormously every single year from handling people's taxes or selling them software/services to simplify the process for them.It shouldn't *HAVE* to be a life skill.
(DIR) Post #ArD5JTaZqukeKhmTSK by soatok@furry.engineer
2025-02-17T12:54:48Z
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@futurebird Any wisdom derived from a sufficiently abstract life lesson is indistinguishable from being out of touch
(DIR) Post #ArD5P4PwLvQM0CTNYG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T12:55:49Z
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I have worked with idealistic people who wanted to make education "more relevant" for students in inner city schools. They could see the kids were really getting the liberal arts education & the power that comes with such an education. Thought "well at least I could teach them to budget better" These people also tended to think that poor people are bad at managing their money (I find the opposite is the case, poor people are experts at managing money and making it do more.)The kids HATED it.
(DIR) Post #ArD5Tgl5k8HO4cZJE8 by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T12:56:42Z
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@futurebird the high school I went to required a "personal finance" class. And it included a section for federal taxes, and a section on state taxes. Unfortunately, the textbook in question was 23 years out of date, and the state taxes section was made for a state that did their taxes quite differently. Not only was it boring, but there were all manner of differences, and some tragicomic price differences.
(DIR) Post #ArD5d6m0OG0rMZUHjM by NaN@mastodon.green
2025-02-17T12:58:23Z
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@futurebird well, maybe three times - as in many countries you don't have to "do your taxes" at all unless you have a complex earning situation.
(DIR) Post #ArD5e8lsRnwDqhv5Ps by virtulis@loud.computer
2025-02-17T12:58:32Z
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@futurebird I'm always behind on my tax reports (personal and LLC) and when I try to get up to speed it's mostly 1) reading convoluted laws/guidebooks 2) keeping things organized.Maybe if I didn't skip school they'd have taught me that, in literature and math perhaps.🎵 ...maybe it's ADHD
(DIR) Post #ArD5hDP7g8E35Rk6y0 by toni@zug.network
2025-02-17T12:59:06Z
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@futurebird How I do my taxes:Go to the state website named after the stealing bird. (Elster, magpie)They already have all the income data.I go through the form and check if I can deduct any contributions to charities, insurance fees, etc.Hit send, probably get back a few hundred euros two months later. Could I have gotten fifty euros more? Probably. I don’t care.If I had a company or were a freelancer: Pay an accountant to do the taxes for me. There’s a reason for job specialisation.
(DIR) Post #ArD5iD3ITNbeHi0YYS by ThreeSigma@mastodon.online
2025-02-17T12:59:11Z
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@futurebird Thisy this. A friend taught uni astronomy, and was frequently told by students he didn’t talk about what they expected or wanted. When asked, they said “what the planets are like and stuff like that”. That of course is the MOST boring thing you can do, and it’s not even practical. (It might be interesting geology, but not astronomy.)I fundamentally cannot identify with this sort of mentality about school. It sounds dreadful.
(DIR) Post #ArD5j3peErBDyj1u8e by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T12:59:21Z
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In a similar situation with not enough resources and two few students my goal was always to try to give them a taste of what I thought was missing from so much of their educational experience. Starting with the idea that they could create meaningful knowledge that their ideas are worthy of respect. And I also try to share with them some of the joy that I find in mathematics. This is hard work and only when I had fewer than 18 students was it effective. 20 is too many.
(DIR) Post #ArD5tty3FrC0ZO86XA by harmonia_amanda@eldritch.cafe
2025-02-17T13:01:16Z
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@futurebird my experience is that well-off people think people are poor because they don't know how to do money, while it's rarely true.And things that can work when you do have money don't when you have very little. Real poverty creates budgeting needs which are fairly different.One problem can actually be to move from a poverty budget to a "standard" budget when you do have more money coming in but… "spend less than you make" by definition can't work if you make less than is needed to cover your survival needs 🤷♀️
(DIR) Post #ArD5umiLhwJQMcCqC8 by detritus@todon.eu
2025-02-17T13:01:19Z
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@futurebird like with a lot of schooling, it’s mostly just to normalize and indoctrinate. Teaching how conditions the kids to believe they have to. Sadly there’s usually no similar education on what it means to be part of a society contributing to a common good.
(DIR) Post #ArD5yGfIo8Dc7iRSQy by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T13:02:12Z
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@diffractie I'm still trying to understand what it is that people think they never learned about taxes? What a percent is? How to read a table? Those are important skills. Making up fake tax forms and slogging through them sounds like some kind of educational torture to me.
(DIR) Post #ArD6IFSN0j4AAOv7nE by toni@zug.network
2025-02-17T13:01:01Z
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@futurebird How the heck would you teach that in school? Do it once, so the students have seen the forms? Maybe. A waste of time, if they have any capacity for independent thought.
(DIR) Post #ArD6g7ATTm8pPTvjNI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T13:10:09Z
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@harmonia_amanda "spend less than you make" by definition can't work if you make less than is needed to cover your survival needs. Shout it for the people in the back!And every month millions of poor people manage to make it work* anyway. Stop a person in a grocery store and ask them "How much total are the items in your basket?" who do you think can answer that question with the most accuracy? To the penny.*This is not something I am celebrating. To be clear.
(DIR) Post #ArD6pi1rndnKL5Tl44 by lePetomaneAncien@fosstodon.org
2025-02-17T13:11:41Z
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@futurebird Teaching 8th graders how to do taxes? Play the Beatles Taxman, ask if there are any questions, then move on to parallelograms.
(DIR) Post #ArD6qS00sre0uexvYu by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T13:11:43Z
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@futurebird when I was in grades k-12, I think I was probably in more classes of over 40 students than under 20 students. And any class of under 20 students was a "gifted" or "honors" class, often taught by a teacher who was giving up their prep period to teach the class.
(DIR) Post #ArD72Pk36Rl3O1Ceh6 by harmonia_amanda@eldritch.cafe
2025-02-17T13:14:09Z
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@futurebird exactly. Poor people know the power of a penny and most of all they know their budget depends on network ties
(DIR) Post #ArD7VVYOZaLDoHcozI by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T13:19:24Z
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@futurebird @harmonia_amanda So many people have to live hand to mouth as they say because they just don't make enough to have savings.Some seem to think that those of us who are poorer should be satisfied to live off of ramen. Putting aside that no human can live off of just one food (and even if they could, it wouldn't be that) this creates its own health problems. (Cheap foods are far far less healthy.) And there's another big cost...
(DIR) Post #ArD7dBioBxVAcQ9rIu by KnittingMittens@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T13:20:46Z
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@futurebird what we should be doing is fighting the tax prep lobbies to simplify our tax returns!
(DIR) Post #ArD7iq4tZl8JEHBRK4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T13:21:52Z
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@KnittingMittens They are trying to get rid of efile. A blatant hand-out to these firms.
(DIR) Post #ArD8IvvjILa7nw6ikS by henryk@chaos.social
2025-02-17T13:11:05Z
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@toni @futurebird Yes no maybe. There *is* at least two more layers to it: One the one hand a base competency and trust in one's own base competency in order to not be scared by form fields for "Sonstige Einkünfte die dem Progressionsvorbehalt unterliegen" (sorry non-Germans, best not to translate), and on the other hand the approximate knowledge what this field wants which does involve an approximate knowledge on how taxing works.
(DIR) Post #ArD8IxEuQWW9ri5YHY by toni@zug.network
2025-02-17T13:27:42Z
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@henryk @futurebird Yeah that’s true. The first few times use training wheels in the form of an independent tax software, which explains in plain language what that approximately means. After doing that a few years, I had enough self confidence to get by without it and be sure enough I won’t land in jail.What you need to teach is the ability for problem solving and becoming confident in your skills. Not an easy job, but much more useful than tax code.
(DIR) Post #ArD97wgsEA66voU1E8 by deltarays@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T13:37:32Z
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@futurebird In 12th grade social studies, we had a discussion about the school system. Now, this was a highly relevant class, going into detail about our country's political system, economy (including taxation and insurance), and social issues. So when someone brought up the taxes argument, the teacher was exasperated: "Weren't you paying any attention last year?!"Most people who say this aren't really interested in more practical lessons. They just want an excuse for not getting an education.
(DIR) Post #ArD9ctdLduVuQaanei by geonz@mathstodon.xyz
2025-02-17T13:43:08Z
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@futurebird @harmonia_amanda There are so many more monthly things and so many more ways to charge fees. I remember when 3 famillies would have one phone -- really can't do that any more.
(DIR) Post #ArDADFFAm4SlsKcJuK by katq906@mastodon.online
2025-02-17T13:49:43Z
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@futurebird I became a computer programmer without ever taking a class in computer science. The proofs I did in math class, the typing class I was forced to take, and the logic class I took in the philosophy department gave me the tools I needed. The rest could be found in a book on the language you are programming in.
(DIR) Post #ArDBAyOQYP7izMQUwC by BoysenberryCider@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T14:00:26Z
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@futurebird you're a bit more generous than me. My rule of thumb whenever someone says "they should teach REAL knowledge like investment/taxes/business in school" is that it's always people who wouldn't have paid attention anyway.I'm comfortable being mean because I didn't pay attention in school either, but then I'm not one of those business types who have the chip on their shoulder validated by Robert Kiyosaki either (I'm a completely separate type of prick)
(DIR) Post #ArDBHobBMpGAdhefgW by NudelnAlDente@mstdn.social
2025-02-17T14:01:44Z
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@futurebird I presume USA-ian taxes, because other countries don't have such convoluted & hostile tax systems. And presumably these systems are subject to change over time.I was taught basic "business" practices in school in Ireland & the only thing I remember in any detail is how to balance a chequebook. I have never, in 4 decades on this planet, owned a chequebook. 🙄
(DIR) Post #ArDBNT68Dfyph2pKW8 by thecorodon@wandering.shop
2025-02-17T14:02:38Z
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@futurebird Doing taxes is a combination of deciphering dry text, organization, and brute executive function. Whatever part of school you hated most was teaching you how to do your taxes.
(DIR) Post #ArDCiu39JAIhJoDUYq by Dss@infosec.exchange
2025-02-17T14:17:50Z
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@futurebird there was a segment on BBC radio 2 (UK public radio) today with a load of people whining about how they were rubbish at maths, but had to do maths.Some woman said "Why do I need to know Pythagorus, why can't they teach me useful maths?" and I shook my head... If they can't get you to understand that basic idea from many centuries ago, you've no hope with anything complex enough to be useful.
(DIR) Post #ArDCn31FtyUUIMJ6n2 by truh@shark.community
2025-02-17T14:18:36Z
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@futurebird Parallelogram season is all year in many trades.
(DIR) Post #ArDD4nK5019IpHZfqi by divxalex@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T14:21:44Z
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@futurebird It's a short distance from this to "vaccines cause autism" and "why dya think democracy is such a graet thyng?" (sic)
(DIR) Post #ArDD5v6LZ3kzExghA8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T14:22:03Z
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@Dss I try to be patient but ... a major reason we teach geometry is it's the easiest way to really understand the concept of similarity, ratio and proportion. You know, the main thing you need to get to "do taxes" ... take a percentage. I often forget that there are many people who do percentages as algorithms and have no intuitive sense of the difference between 2% and 0.02% I've seen students show up in calculus who didn't really understand fractions OFTEN. And we must fix that first.
(DIR) Post #ArDDD9WOLimfzTJoxM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T14:23:21Z
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@Dss Like I get it. Your math class was boring, your teacher was tired. But there is a small part of this that falls on the individual. So, you didn't learn then? Why not now? Find that curiosity again! Come on. Anyways.
(DIR) Post #ArDDbA5FuUocgV4fsu by argonaut@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T14:27:38Z
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@futurebird @catsalad a largely derived thought, but every single human problem is an education problem
(DIR) Post #ArDDdDwqVu8zFU7lY0 by grumpasaurus@infosec.exchange
2025-02-17T14:28:03Z
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@futurebird mmmmmm.Educating kids is tough. A lot of what I personally experienced in high school and undergrad was geared towards academia, but I believe it established a solid foundation for me to be able to learn on the job, do research, and be critical of what I read. Tbh I think that's the basis to almost all majors.In high school you're going to run into tons of kids having absolutely no interest in any required curriculum and what I liked about my high school experience is that in the last 2 years, most of my classes were no longer in the required area of things (I was one of those AP kids in NY State where regents was the thing).Those last 2 years kids took really diverging things to pursue their interests or at least try things. They were pretty much electives. Music, auto repair, carpentry, metal working, culinary, computer science, and many others were options to take in a well funded high school with enough student population. Yeah no way is a kid going to take a taxes course.
(DIR) Post #ArDDi2WGQtXdFczG7s by Jirikiha@mastodon.cloud
2025-02-17T14:28:53Z
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@futurebird @Dss there was a court case about this!A man checked the data rates for his phone plan before going overseas and saw it was .02¢/MB or something and thought that was fine.Then he got a horrendous bill when he got back from his trip. They'd charged him 100x what was listed on the site..02¢ is two-hundredths of a cent, NOT two cents! But, he had to convince the judge of that fact.
(DIR) Post #ArDE10Vu7A0oX3rZpo by muellerwhh@sueden.social
2025-02-17T14:32:18Z
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@futurebird @Dss btw Duolingo does a Good Job for this type of reasoning
(DIR) Post #ArDE6g58zXl6u03Azg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T14:33:23Z
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@Dss And since I don't like it when people say "not enough people know X" but then don't explain X.% is a symbol that means out of 1002% is 2/100 or 0.02 without the %You can multiply by a percent, like any other number to find that percent of a number."2% of $200 is $4"(2/100)*200=4 or 0.02*200=4 So what is 0.02%? Same math replace 2 with 0.02(0.02/100)*200=0.04 or 0.0002*200=0.04"0.02 of $200 is $0.04 or 4 cents."
(DIR) Post #ArDEYHPWJRhiUfk6ng by profdc9@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T14:38:19Z
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@futurebird Geometry has rules that will never change and will always be used. Taxes have arbitrary, always changing rules. It's like the child's game Simon Says where if you don't obey the right rule, you get burned. Many people don't want to have to think though, so understanding geometry or finance isn't going to help them.
(DIR) Post #ArDEfbDr3E8DxxmCeG by noplasticshower@infosec.exchange
2025-02-17T14:39:40Z
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@futurebird @Dss though I share your concerns, I believe AI systems will just make this problem worse by making the "building blocks" even bigger and trickier concepts.
(DIR) Post #ArDF6r1CQkB2m6qxYO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T14:44:31Z
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@unchartedworlds This sounds a little more useful. I could see doing a lesson with some paystubs looking for a fake financial criminal being kind of fun. "Is someone stealing do the numbers add up?"This could work with the spreadsheet skills I teach. I'm very happy that there are some universal things about spreadsheet softwares so I don't feel like it's a waste of time to teach students how to use them.
(DIR) Post #ArDFEjaVwMO22x83Lk by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T14:45:52Z
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@futurebird @Dss one of the math textbooks I found at a used book store had a section on how to estimate proportions and fractions by eye, with a ton of scale drawings of rectangles, squares, and circles , and for each shape what common fractions like 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/3, 1/6, 1/12, etc, might look like. They even included a few examples of 1/100 and 1/1000. Then they did it again, but in 3D with cubes and cylinders.
(DIR) Post #ArDFITQbxoJd5QHQ7k by AnnaLiviaPlurabelle@freeradical.zone
2025-02-17T14:46:36Z
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@futurebird I learned how to do my taxes in seventh grade, or at least a 1040EZ. Mostly what that taught me was that doing your taxes was something that competent adults should be able to do themselves in most cases (not that help from software is a bad thing). But at least in the US, we have a lot of people with a vested interest in convincing people that they must hire a professional to do their taxes, even when they are straightforward.
(DIR) Post #ArDFXnNc4AOHJEBRLM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T14:49:28Z
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@mattdm @unchartedworlds OK that's another good one.
(DIR) Post #ArDFcM9Ck81EIUcQfw by adriano@lile.cl
2025-02-17T14:50:16Z
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@futurebird @unchartedworlds I'd bet that in school the idea was to give you the reading skills to, in the end, navigate complex or complicated documents, though.I agree that navigating a specific document could mean taking specific extra courses, but you already said that earlier.
(DIR) Post #ArDG6PT8xRvjHpH9u4 by grant_h@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T14:55:42Z
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@futurebird @Dss I used to teach the "etymology" of %, as /oo or /100, with the 1 0 moved up(anyone know why? I don't!)And o/oo for per thousand.I don't think I've expressed it well here tho!
(DIR) Post #ArDGCfNYia0QMreB4C by jab01701mid@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T14:56:50Z
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@futurebird It's a very interesting thought.When I was in 6th grade, I became aware of the "Vocational School" alternative to high school, and I liked the idea.It was because the brochure for the school showed people learning how to use computers, use CNC machines, fix cars, build structures, all things I wanted to do.But my parents insisted that I stay on the track to MAKE computers, not just USE them.
(DIR) Post #ArDGLtK8F18YDsRW8e by neonutopia@mastodon.pub.solar
2025-02-17T14:58:29Z
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@futurebird I may just be adding to a pile of replies that will never be read, but I find this idea very interesting. For me, the only reason I even remember some vague meanings of math words like "variance," is that I went home after school, googled "wth dose XXX actually get used for," and found fascinating articles on cool techniques like "variance shadow mapping." I then spent hours reading them and came away wishing they were taught in school. Idk, maybe that's just my autism showing.
(DIR) Post #ArDGX7I4eZ2ej2phYm by rickpelletier@toad.social
2025-02-17T15:00:30Z
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@futurebird don't forget the tax prep industry does a ton of advertising every year to try and keep people thinking that taxes can't be done by a normal person
(DIR) Post #ArDGZQ5Fkekpagvyvg by neonutopia@mastodon.pub.solar
2025-02-17T15:00:57Z
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@futurebird I definitely agree about class sizes though. More students may == more efficiency of getting kids out the door, but it dose not == more efficiency of getting kids knowledge.
(DIR) Post #ArDHHTojEQqJuaDMTA by tofugolem@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T15:08:54Z
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@futurebird First, I haaaaate the way we teach math in K-12, but you explain why it needs to be that way. Teaching math correctly requires lower student:teacher ratios.We teach kids that there is one and only one way to solve each problem and punish them if they do not do it the one way.Math is beautiful and abstract, but how can kids see that when they are forced to treat it like a series of recipe steps to memorize and follow blindly?1/
(DIR) Post #ArDHnyPD2Yhw2wlvwe by Xenograg@dice.camp
2025-02-17T15:14:47Z
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@futurebird I would prefer it phrased as “how to balance a checkbook.”
(DIR) Post #ArDHwK8o71NFm559IO by gooba42@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T15:16:18Z
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@futurebird I'm picking my way through "Measurement" after Hank Green suggested he'd like a reboot of our math curricula starting from there.I am really enjoying the thoughtful and artistic view of math and really do think we could do a lot more engaging and fun math classes with that view in mind.
(DIR) Post #ArDHzloJh68eSV8o4G by UkeleleEric@mstdn.social
2025-02-17T15:16:55Z
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@futurebird Especially since many of the theoretical things you are taught either lead on to other, more practical things later, or turn out to have some practical application with a change in technology, like number bases and Boolean algebra did for computing.
(DIR) Post #ArDIeomXYFubXysp8K by weekend_editor@mathstodon.xyz
2025-02-17T15:24:19Z
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@futurebird @Dss Useless but fun: there is a similar symbol, ‰, with an extra zero-like-thing on it. It's pronounced "per mille", and means per thousand.Maddeningly, people throw away (or never have) the Latin "mille" for thousand and immediately confuse it with "million". And in other corners of the world, it was confused with "milliard", which is yet another beast.Yet others bleep over the per mille symbol and read it for percent instead.Obviously, there's a good reason this is seldom used nowadays.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_mille
(DIR) Post #ArDIoMMS4eneIVELey by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T15:25:58Z
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@ligasser @mattdm @unchartedworlds The way most tax systems work is like this. There are different rates for different incomes and:The more you make, the *more* brackets apply to you.Let's say we 3 brackets:Under $100 is 2%$100.01 to $1000 is 5%$1000.01 up is 7%If you make $1001.00 you pay:100*.02 on the first 100900*.05 on the next 9001*.07 on that last dollar$47.08 total.You only pay the highest rate on the money you make beyond 1000. It only applies to the last dollar.
(DIR) Post #ArDIsZ56ir0WuI7gMS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T15:26:49Z
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@ligasser @mattdm @unchartedworlds This is very simplified. But, it's the general idea and hopefully it's clear why there is never a case where someone would say "better not make one more dollar or you'll have less overall!"
(DIR) Post #ArDJFGuqQZPJEC9MqO by ligasser@social.epfl.ch
2025-02-17T15:30:55Z
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@futurebird @mattdm @unchartedworlds Absolutely, thanks a lot! I did a nice figure with the CH tax values...Now let's kill the "don't pay back the house loan else you'll pay more taxes."Which is technically correct, but you also pay less interest rates.In the end, what makes the difference is what you do with the money: if you pay 2% interest rates, but get 0% on your savings account, you're better off repaying that loan.
(DIR) Post #ArDJGMDyAzW1yuc5SK by 401matthall@mastodon.xyz
2025-02-17T15:31:00Z
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@futurebird M'kay, so the forms, directions, and tables from the IRS might _not_ be the only way to explain progressive income tax.<3@ligasser @mattdm @unchartedworlds
(DIR) Post #ArDJr6lkbK5KlLwENM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T15:37:46Z
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@RyeNCode @ligasser @mattdm @unchartedworlds I think they myth is kept around to make people think higher taxes for higher incomes are "unfair"
(DIR) Post #ArDKoNNMV9CHLvn94y by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T15:48:30Z
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@grant_h @Dss I had to sub for 4th grader (the last class of the day, the day before winter break!) so the teacher didn't expect me to accomplish much with them. But said "they are learning percents"So I taught them about percents and "per thousandths" and showed them some old calculators that have a key for both. They really loved it and we had a lot of fun. Maybe because their regular teacher won't let them play with calculators, but that's not me. I'm NOT the arithmetic teacher.
(DIR) Post #ArDKwgR3WR9imWTrpw by dan613@ottawa.place
2025-02-17T15:49:11Z
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@sidereal @futurebird I feel like if you gave kids instructions on how to trisect an angle and they managed to follow those instructions, they would be completely competent to follow their instructions on how to file taxes. It's not that it's difficult, it's that they feel overwhelmed. They need practice to just be whelmed.
(DIR) Post #ArDKwhDGdBijC32Mz2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T15:49:58Z
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@dan613 @sidereal Don't you need a marked edge to even doooo that?
(DIR) Post #ArDLNbyQDeXIlJva3k by davidnjoku@mastodon.world
2025-02-17T15:54:50Z
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@futurebird Thank you for expressing something that has always annoyed me.People that say that seem to labour under the same misunderstanding as Sherlock Holmes. Remember that quote when he said that the brain is like an attic, and that to put one thing in you have to take one thing out. Learning about parallelograms isn't why they can't do their taxes. To know more, you have to learn more, not less.
(DIR) Post #ArDLc9pP95H9oYe7EW by sarae@ecoevo.social
2025-02-17T15:57:29Z
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@futurebird I felt that my kids really got shortchanged on life skills education by their high schools, but I didn't expect math teachers to cover thatthey needed something like civics and financial/budget management coursework, which is differentthe older one got that through a job training program and college coursework, the younger one hasn't had it and is now, I believe, delinquent on state and federal taxes 😐but they're an adult so I can't do much to intervene
(DIR) Post #ArDLiSSYmqKNKvxtPU by grant_h@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T15:58:37Z
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@futurebird @Dss that too: teach that "per" means divide, cent is from century.SO much maths misunderstanding is just not knowing the language. The kids can do the thing, they just didn't know what it was called, and so couldn't do it in the test. Maths vocab is so important!
(DIR) Post #ArDLvooqxw8wRqlO76 by dlakelan@mastodon.sdf.org
2025-02-17T16:00:58Z
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@futurebirdI was consistently evaluated as "not good at math" between about 4th and 8th grade. I'm kinda slow at arithmetic and can't store numbers in my head very well. I then went on to teach myself calculus and do a math major in college, then a second undergrad in civil engineering, then a PhD in civil engineering (really mainly applied math). Most people, including most people who teach math up to some high school level, don't even know what math is.@grant_h @Dss
(DIR) Post #ArDM9cVzVdfwLEWPYW by CStamp@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T16:03:30Z
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@futurebird My father had me do his taxes from junior high onwards. He thought it a useful skill. I didn't do it instead of him but also. He told me if I found any deductions he missed, found any extra money, he'd give me the difference. It was a useful skill when I moved out on my own.
(DIR) Post #ArDMWnHpcvBoPRwtUW by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2025-02-17T16:07:32Z
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@futurebird @Dss I wonder if this is different for speakers of languages like Spanish where % is literally called "per hundred."
(DIR) Post #ArDMXiVcsJ5lsjqDPE by argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org
2025-02-17T16:07:48Z
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@futurebird One can learn a great deal about math by interacting with a machine that does it.For example, as a little kid, I figured out that I can center a line of text on the screen by positioning it at ((screen_width / 2) - (text_width / 2)). In that moment, I felt like a GENIUS. 😁@grant_h @Dss
(DIR) Post #ArDMvsyTcIFtI0rPLk by g_alex_ylovestoread@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T16:12:14Z
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@futurebird Thank you for all of this <3 I teach part time, supplementary education for children in writing. I do my best to convey to them that once certain types of writing come easily to them, so do many other methods of self-expression. I don't want to teach them to write just to survive in the school system. I want to teach them to write so they can make themselves understood to those they want to understand them. Love to you for sharing the joy you find in mathematics. You're amazing!
(DIR) Post #ArDNnW4oxvzFuYOvMe by jayalane@mathstodon.xyz
2025-02-17T16:21:54Z
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@futurebird oh. When I read the first sentence, I thought to myself,”parallelograms are really nice.”
(DIR) Post #ArDNuVs483evIflrjk by artemis@dice.camp
2025-02-17T16:23:07Z
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@futurebirdMy partner's parents didn't teach him "how to adult". I think this is what some people mean when they say "how to do taxes". They don't necessarily mean filling out the forms...it means being told when the window for filing is, how to find more information about your taxes, understanding withholdings, what the consequences might be for fucking up your taxes, etc. Just the basic knowledge of what you're supposed to be doing and when and if there are any little things you need to know
(DIR) Post #ArDPBniT8Mz3WV5cI4 by waffles@masto.yttrx.com
2025-02-17T16:37:27Z
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@futurebird in highschool (mid 90s) I had a business class elective that was effectively how to simulate balancing a budget as a small business.Part of the class involved maintaining a balance book. Each class we’d receive income receipts and have to pay bills and taxes.I don’t know how relevant it was but it was a lot of fun as a 16yo
(DIR) Post #ArDPdeaiebwDKZkJTk by XerShadowTail@chitter.xyz
2025-02-17T16:42:34Z
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@futurebird I feel this, I know people who see US taxes as scary and lots of math when today with tax filing software it is just copy/paste a number that is given to you. If they did do it by hand, it is a checklist with a calculator anyway. Most of the time everyone just has to report a single document, even myself with more stuff like a HSA and 401k I could do it by hand but software makes it even easier.
(DIR) Post #ArDPrJghAazUYO3Xt2 by trainguyrom@techhub.social
2025-02-17T16:45:02Z
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@futurebird when I was younger I'd parrot this complaint but then I remembered the few times I was given real world advice as a teenager I simply lacked the real world experience to actually comprehend it, and I didn't truly understand the value of money until I lived on my own actually budgeting my own money to my own competing expenses.For an example, in middle school I remember an assignment where they had us put down what we think various normal expenses cost like rent, water, electricity, and groceries. I don't remember what the point of the assignment was just the teachers laughing about how we had nearly zero idea of what anything actually cost and assigned high amounts to forgettable bills and low amounts to the most painful ones. I think it might have been a budgeting assignment? I honestly don't remember. But what I do remember is as kids who didn't have actual financial obligations we had no clue what anything cost so giving financial advice was kinda meaningless
(DIR) Post #ArDPwr1odagpPDZkvY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T16:46:04Z
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@trainguyrom Maybe the true lament is "I spent all that time hearing about parallelograms and still don't know what the big deal with them is anyway."
(DIR) Post #ArDQ2ERX0e7fTPAUk4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T16:47:02Z
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@trainguyrom And what you explain is part of why I think crafting such lessons can be difficult. Part of being young is not really knowing what you might need to know.
(DIR) Post #ArDQX04SUjMnsN30fw by gsuberland@chaos.social
2025-02-17T16:52:32Z
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@futurebird @ligasser @mattdm @unchartedworlds yup. the brackets in the UK for 2024/25 are:0% up to £12,75020% on £12,751 to £50,27040% on £50,271 to £125,140someone who earns £80k is taxed £19,428.40there's a whole tool for it!https://listentotaxman.com/
(DIR) Post #ArDRBj0WqBXApNd1bk by msbellows@c.im
2025-02-17T16:59:56Z
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@futurebird @trainguyrom I blame GPS. No one plots their course on a paper chart anymore.
(DIR) Post #ArDROYQvT01ZnT5pcu by snowpaw@nerdculture.de
2025-02-17T17:02:13Z
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@futurebirdThe one thing that really scared me away from math is that it is taught as a 'calculation tool' in school, but used as a 'language that you all are supposed to know' in university.Math is a language to describe things like accuracy, speed, the position and movement of things and much more.What I don't know is if eight graders would favour that approach. I can only speak for myself in that regard.Oh btw I am ftom Germany so my outlook on education and its problems will be coloured by it.
(DIR) Post #ArDRfnhXxBV64a5hRo by grant_h@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T17:05:14Z
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@futurebird This thread seems to have touched a nerve...I would love to know how you locals feel about Doctorow's take on your tax system: You aren't _supposed_ to understand it: https://pluralistic.net/2025/02/11/doubling-up-on-paperwork/#rip-freefileHere at the bottom of Africa, it gets worked out for us, we can check and complain, or just proceed. It can be that easy.
(DIR) Post #ArDSi5NVIpsbQhMybQ by gpilz@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T17:16:58Z
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@futurebird @trainguyrom At the very least they are yet another example of hierarchically classifying things by degree of constraint. A rectangle is kind of a parallelogram that is further constrained by the angles of its vertices (all 90 degrees). A square is a rectangle that is further constrained by the length of its sides, etc. All rectangles are parallelograms but not all parallelograms are rectangles.
(DIR) Post #ArDTkDNIdsBalRqxI8 by neddonovan@me.dm
2025-02-17T17:28:34Z
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@futurebird I think about this all the time. School's primary function should be not just in teaching skills but in defining and enhancing "how" to think. Not what to think but literally the act of thinking and how logical processes should work. Math (among many other topics) is exceptional at those things. It has nothing to do with the application of the math, but the act of knowing how to do it.Taxes does not have that same value. One-time use that is discernable if you learned how to think
(DIR) Post #ArDUk9o00rCheFsV28 by TobyBartels@mathstodon.xyz
2025-02-17T17:39:42Z
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@futurebird @ligasser @mattdm @unchartedworldsThis is a good example for Calculus courses. The tax brackets define the marginal tax rate, which is a step function (as a function of income). The tax you pay is the integral of this function, which is a continuous piecewise-linear function. Subtract the tax function from the identity function to get your net after-tax income function. Theorem: this is an increasing function if and only if the marginal tax rate is always less than 100%.
(DIR) Post #ArDXnZwDbnrFQc2tJw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T18:14:01Z
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@mattdm @TobyBartels @ligasser @unchartedworlds Thing is I just so happen to have a small class of 12th graders taking calculus with me and they just learned integration. They are also the "slow class" at the very academically challenging school where I teach. (take a moment to ponder the absurdity of a senior taking calculus in high school and thinking they are "bad at math" because they aren't taking linear algebra... anyways...)This is perfect for them. I may even mention the silly meme.
(DIR) Post #ArDY6847SjUIU8aRIO by lemgandi@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T18:17:20Z
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@futurebird Huh. I learned trigonometry in high school. It stayed dormant for me until I started writing video games. Then a quick web refresh was all I needed. Thanks profs!
(DIR) Post #ArDZ0yIqQpAKiIZxVA by kimlockhartga@beige.party
2025-02-17T18:27:38Z
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@futurebird @mattdm @TobyBartels @ligasser @unchartedworlds I have to say that I was much more ready for both trig and calculus in college than in high school, and I always thought that it was me, but what if it was really student teacher ratio? All of my high school classes were 30 students or more per teacher.
(DIR) Post #ArDaAL9yv2KkADSrWy by pteryx@dice.camp
2025-02-17T18:40:31Z
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@futurebird I think what people are trying to say when they say something like that is "I wish I had been taught practical skills instead of abstract concepts with no obvious applicability".To me, in addition to such a complaint overlooking the third option (thinking skills) like you said earlier in the thread, it *also* means a failure of parenting. Parents are supposed to cover the "how to adult" part of a child's education.
(DIR) Post #ArDiDHmsiJtKCpZisa by twipped@twipped.social
2025-02-17T20:10:40Z
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@futurebird it’s simply an algorithm if you just have w2 income. It gets a lot more complicated when you have 1099s, investment income, real estate taxes, home business use of office, energy credits, and/or any number of other deductions
(DIR) Post #ArDiRePHPdQePeNxIG by martinicat@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T20:13:17Z
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@futurebird why should you learn how to do your taxes in school? The taxes come with instructions that are designed for anyone to be able to read and follow🍸😺 the same is not true of a parallelogram🍸😹
(DIR) Post #ArDsdS8LrtClMhjYLQ by lufthans@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T22:07:28Z
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@futurebird a 5th grade teacher in .ca.us starts the first day of school with kids applying for jobs ( cleaning, grade accounting, banking, librarianing, ... ) that pay fake money and charges rent for desksNo job pays enough for rent, so they all have do side jobs like extra movie or book reports to make ends meetnot taxes per se, but accounting and budgetingStudents can save and buy their own desks, then buy other desks. He quickly learned he had to institute rent controls
(DIR) Post #ArDv8kN8J9okoehJ5M by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T22:35:34Z
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@lufthans Listen. The first day of 5th grade is the first day in the "upper school" (technically the middle school) for many kids, and they are in a new building, they don't have a teacher who takes them from one class to the next in a group anymore. They have to go to lunch on their own.The poor things look shell shocked all week. Like they have been left in the woods. I think they'd die if I told them they had to rent their desk too. However, it might be amusing for the 6th graders.
(DIR) Post #ArDw5PQPpeU8w3Cme0 by lufthans@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T22:46:09Z
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@futurebird ah, for his school the 5th graders are in his class all day long, I don't think they even go out for artThere are lots of reasons his idea wouldn't work in other classrooms, but he's managed to do it in his particular caseI presume doing this project with a wandering class would be much, much more difficultit's probably also be multiple classes of 5th graders every semester which is also a ton more work
(DIR) Post #ArE03idBqxSrjtd7Ca by lufthans@mastodon.social
2025-02-17T23:30:39Z
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@futurebird @Dss oooh, cool, I do that correctly :)I don't have to do percentages that often, but when explaining it to kidling at some point I said y percentage is y/100, so multiply by y, then divide by 100Dividing by the percentage would multiplying by the inverse? e.g. 200 divided by 2% would be 200 * ( 100 / 2 ), which is 10,000 and gives you the amount that 200 is 2% of?I just convinced myself mathematically that that is correct, but uncertain of the grammar/logic describing it
(DIR) Post #ArE1kMdXbSnjvnh0Vc by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-17T23:49:36Z
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@lufthans @Dss Yes!
(DIR) Post #ArEB5DJwKojohrXc6C by Dss@infosec.exchange
2025-02-18T01:34:12Z
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@futurebird @lufthans yes, because multiplication works regardless of the order of operation. So 5 x 50 x 5000 == 5000 x 50 x 5 == 50 x 5000 x 5, etc. So 0.05 x 5000 == 5000 x 0.05. And so that stuff above also works. (it's also why you do the divisions first (BODMAS))
(DIR) Post #ArEERzsCnVFHWV7kaO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-18T02:11:56Z
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@sidereal @dan613 IDK I've seen some pretty big mistakes.
(DIR) Post #ArEycoB3De9IKF23Iu by mavu@mastodon.social
2025-02-18T10:48:05Z
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@lufthans @futurebird am i the only one who thinks this is sick and absolutely disgusting?
(DIR) Post #ArEycpMmnV880vWwEa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-02-18T10:49:19Z
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@mavu @lufthans No. Though a lot of it would come down to how it was presented, what kind of discussions you have about it I think. On first pass? It sounds horrible.
(DIR) Post #ArF46HUFpCGjOet4nA by GinevraCat@toot.community
2025-02-18T11:50:31Z
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@futurebird We always start with their wishlist - go online and find something you want to buy that you can’t afford. Then the calculations on how much and how long you have to save for are at least vaguely relevant. Of course, there’s still a lot of direct instruction 🤷♀️