Post Aolj5Yken7XkmOS19k by JMMaok@mastodon.online
(DIR) More posts by JMMaok@mastodon.online
(DIR) Post #AolYSN1tRN5laaBgqO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:25:17Z
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Do you think it will be possible to build self-sustaining space habitats? Let's assume some more progress in material science, ways of generating power, human emotional intelligence, empathy and cooperation skills. But nothing "magical."Could we make man-made cans where generations could live and thrive?I think it's possible as long as there are enough of them and they are big enough. They need to be big enough for a proper ecosystem, and we'd need multiple ecosystems.
(DIR) Post #AolYi8MDl6ruiYDDfc by mmby@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:28:07Z
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@futurebird the social rules in such a small and brittle ecosystem might be very harsh, while I think it can be done technically, can habitats survive their social dynamics?
(DIR) Post #AolYjGr9e5CnMlDubY by mcc@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:28:11Z
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@futurebird I voted probably yes but I'm worried what happens to everybody's bones.Occasionally science fiction has the idea that someone who grew up on a space station can never go back to earth because once you lose the ability to live in 1g you never get it back. I am worried that idea might be real
(DIR) Post #AolYn4W3T6YSFfAOTw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:28:58Z
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@mcc I think spin "gravity" is a must. And as close to earth Gs as we can get.
(DIR) Post #AolYsoJccA8dkC5UWm by pbloem@sigmoid.social
2024-12-06T10:30:02Z
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@futurebird Have you read A City on Mars by Kelly and Zach Weinersmith (@ZachWeinersmith)? It goes into this at some length, and the news isn't good (in the near term at least). It's not that we can't build them, but most of the supply chains for the replacement parts you'd need (say computer chips) are so gargantuan that's it's difficult to see how you'd keep them going without An Earth with a few billion people and loads of natural resources.
(DIR) Post #AolYxP73kEQp1lOz0y by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:30:53Z
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@mmby That's why "cooperation skills" is on the list right next to material science for me. People may well be too dysfunctional to run such systems. But, I don't really buy that. I just think it's not something I can totally rule out.
(DIR) Post #AolZ30p0yGlzQZdUCe by mcc@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:31:51Z
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@futurebird The spin gravity is a staple in sci fi but has there *ever* been an IRL proof of concept? Ever?
(DIR) Post #AolZCRr1pmyrsE4r3o by pitrh@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:33:33Z
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@futurebird My "probably can be done" comes with the qualification that it *will* be insanely expensive, to the degree that the probability that it actually happens during the next few decades if ever is fairly low.
(DIR) Post #AolZDmKzADfNgsiw8e by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:33:42Z
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@pbloem @ZachWeinersmith I'm thinking if you can make a habitat that holds about 50k people, and if you have about 300 of them trading and sharing resources it might work. The *minimum* size is in millions IMO. And I worry there are a lot of people who don't understand this about humans, and all of our fun toys and lifestyles.
(DIR) Post #AolZHKU8ezhySyhLwu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:34:30Z
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@pitrh Decades? Oh no no no no. No way. This would be in 200 years at the very soonest.
(DIR) Post #AolZPrapRwNlSutfJw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:36:03Z
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@mcc There has not. But I think that's just because we have not attempted to build anything big enough where it'd make any sense at all. And for the ecosystems? We need it to be big. If it can't be big enough for spin gravity it's probably not big enough for the biota we'd need.
(DIR) Post #AolZSdqN1f0tgvUVQO by sabik@rants.au
2024-12-06T10:36:30Z
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@futurebird @mcc While we don't know what happens in long-term non-Earth gravity (other than 0g), I wonder if air composition will end up being a good guideIn the early US program, they used pure oxygen at low pressure. In Skylab, they already had to use ¼ nitrogen. Today's NASA standards specify at least ½ nitrogen (or other inert gas), and in practice everyone uses standard air, with ⅘ nitrogen
(DIR) Post #AolZXUMJiWp3iskFs0 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:37:24Z
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@benh @mcc Ice, also a way of storing water, many meters thick. Maybe with something added to it to make it more like concrete.
(DIR) Post #AolZYkyHRFXHXD6fs8 by bovaz@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T10:37:33Z
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@futurebird I honestly don't see them as a possibility in our lifetimes. I wish they were. And not entirely insulated from Earth and a dedicated infrastructure. The thing that will take longer, I think, is sorting out the socio-economic side, as well as the environmental impact (on Earth) of moving the required amount of stuff to (at least) orbit.
(DIR) Post #AolZdRikRH1DHJ4sYy by kechpaja@social.kechpaja.com
2024-12-06T10:38:26Z
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@futurebird I basically still stand by this: https://social.kechpaja.com/@kechpaja/113295061740674803We don't need anything magical, but we do need to know how to build a fully-functioning ecosystem from scratch and keep it running indefinitely — which requires solving basically all of the greatest problems facing us today.
(DIR) Post #AolZeY7E9H0JOv3O9w by sabik@rants.au
2024-12-06T10:38:20Z
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@futurebird @mcc Another interesting point about non-Earth gravity is that I've never heard of anyone running long-term experiments with 1.1g 1.05g or something; that'd be well within the scope and remit of any number of sports institutes, but no
(DIR) Post #AolZvM9Nt7rrDM4pBg by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:41:44Z
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@futurebird I am convinced that exactly one advance is necessary for sustainable space habitats: Everyone must always put the safety of the habitat ahead of both profit and personal convenience. Without that, technological advances will always prove insufficient before long. The same is true for sustainable civilization on earth, it's just that down here things will take longer to fail catastrophically.
(DIR) Post #Aola4clrSjhrMuUequ by albertcardona@mathstodon.xyz
2024-12-06T10:43:22Z
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@futurebird No laws of physics that I know of against self-sustained space habitats – in some sense, planet Earth is one –, but surely the knowledge gap between science fiction and actual engineering prowess is impressive right now.
(DIR) Post #Aola5zhXh3l0m87uQC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T10:43:39Z
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@llewelly On the same page with you as this. Really we could do all kinds of shocking wondrous things if we could get over this hump.
(DIR) Post #AolaB59QrIEZ7qb87s by gregeganSF@mathstodon.xyz
2024-12-06T10:37:16Z
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@mcc @futurebirdI think the costs vs benefit is so steep at present that there’s not much motivation to invest in any kind of in-space trial.There are lots of good points made here: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/1308/why-are-there-no-spacecraft-rotating-for-artificial-gravity
(DIR) Post #AolaQfT07Vrq6HBOk4 by rayhindle@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:47:18Z
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@futurebird There is, as yet, insufficient data for a meaningful answer.
(DIR) Post #AolabmqZ1P6iAsVRcu by plsik@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:49:21Z
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@futurebird I think such an ecosystem would be potentially very unstable. That there would be situations like "eh, all the plants of this species died, we don't have any others and we don't know why it happened yet and the line that the Earth will arrive in six months"
(DIR) Post #AolakPbqmqE2iAjkTA by mcc@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:42:39Z
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@pbloem @futurebird @ZachWeinersmith Haven't read the city on mars book but curious—That last thing, computer chips. I've been wondering about that. I feel like we used to make chips that required fewer rare-earth metals and now we require more. I wonder what it would look like to make a computer with modern tech but limiting to the simplest metals. Specifically was wondering "could self-replicating robots in the Asteroid belt build their own CPUs". Eat an S-type asteroid. What can you make.
(DIR) Post #AolakR61G9x5K1rM8G by mcc@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T10:48:26Z
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@pbloem @futurebird @ZachWeinersmith (Obviously there are large problems in that scenario like "how do you mine the asteroid" "how are the robots piloted" but those aren't the ones I'm currently considering. I'm thinking about the CPU-making problem only, in part because it has application to many non-space situations where you might for some reason suddenly lose access to the global mineral economy.)
(DIR) Post #AolarM7GAoqfu6ju7s by tisha@htt.social
2024-12-06T10:51:58Z
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@futurebird I don't think so.I'm not technically proficient, but I say that because I don't believe that our species is capable of limiting its consumption to what a closed bubble would produce.We are an exploratory and warlike species.
(DIR) Post #AolbmB9taNGIQU4Fqi by AbramKedge@beige.party
2024-12-06T11:02:26Z
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@futurebird @mcc I was thinking of a cylinder about a quarter of a mile in diameter and a mile long. Gives enough space for growing crops with proper crop rotation.The large diameter means that you can generate 1g without excessive rotational speeds, reducing Coriolis effects.I think it could be done, but a lot of the material would have to come from moons or asteroids.One thing that always bugs me in Sci-fi, they usually throw the dead bodies out into space. Nope - that's valuable resources you're throwing away. Put them into the composter. Footfall by Niven and Pournelle gets this right.
(DIR) Post #AolcRFPseypxVL7yEq by econads@mendeddrum.org
2024-12-06T11:09:52Z
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@futurebird I mean in some ways if you look at it we are already living in a self sustaining space habitat.
(DIR) Post #Aolcu7OLZhCH0wB1MW by jornane@ipv6.social
2024-12-06T11:15:05Z
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@futurebird I think about before the industrial revolution, people would very rarely travel further from home than one day by foot.If we're willing to live like that again, can't we just do that on Earth? Self-sustaining space habitats sounds like de-growth with extra steps.(CC @ecosurrealism)
(DIR) Post #AolcxpX9uauKms4J1s by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2024-12-06T11:15:46Z
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@futurebird It depends on the scale, both spatial and temporal.We have an existence proof (exactly one) that you can build a self-sustaining ecosystem that flies through space and survives for a few billion years. So that's obviously possible. The questions are:How stable can you make it? You probably want fewer mass-extinction events for an artificial one.How small can you make it. I'm willing to claim that 'smaller than a planet' is almost certainly possible, but how much smaller than a planet is an open question.And these are not distinct concerns. If you consider a generation ship that's going to another place where it has a ready supply of raw materials, it maybe needs to be stable for a thousand years or so. That's hard, but orders of magnitude simpler than the ecosystem we currently live in.We've also got several examples of islands where, even if you're getting a regular injection of fresh oxygen, sea water, and sea wildlife (plant and animal), the ecosystem isn't sufficiently stable. So possibly 'somewhere between the size of an island and the size of the planet' is the scale where we know it can be done. Especially if 'and humans can avoid all dying' is one of the constraints.
(DIR) Post #AoldSaOEGbs2nPYbMu by jwcph@helvede.net
2024-12-06T11:21:20Z
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@futurebird Probably can't be done. Life is far too attuned to exist under gravity & far too complex to be "fooled" by approximations - from the cellular level up, living in such an environment would mess profoundly with any life form; I doubt even the first generation of people moving there as adults would survive to anwhere near Earth old age & children conceived & born there probably wouldn't make it to adulthood. (I consider working artificial gravity to be in the "magical" category)
(DIR) Post #Aoldx1Y3r9xRiLfbAu by IngaLovinde@embracing.space
2024-12-06T11:26:48Z
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@futurebird we can't even do it on Earth (we keep ruining the Earth); doing this on Mars is many orders of magnitude more difficult; doing this in the space, even more.If we somehow manage to save Earth and stop ruining it... we'll probably become an entirely different society, not one very keen on spending untold amount of resources on creating space habitats, not for some time at least. In theory? It's possible. In practice? Not in a thousand of years.
(DIR) Post #Aole5AUIVK0dkunDv6 by jwcph@helvede.net
2024-12-06T11:23:59Z
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@futurebird Also, cosmic radiation. Our protection on Earth is so perfectly attuned to make the planet liveable - replicating it in space or on another planet may be less magical than the gravity problem, but it's still waaaaaay worse than most people probably realize.
(DIR) Post #Aole5BXWaoBX1DJJaa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T11:28:18Z
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@jwcph Or, rather, life has become so well adapted to this environment and has not yet found a way to spread much beyond it as far as we know.
(DIR) Post #AoleBV5OpgbhNVAOAq by gdupont@framapiaf.org
2024-12-06T11:29:27Z
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@futurebird I answered the first option "probably can be done" with strong assumptions on the conditions in which said humans will "live".The worst case of "belters" situation in the sci-fi serie/book the expanse shows some of that. I remember older sci-fi novels that also got pretty deep in trying to depict shitty asteroid station where people were surviving more than living (but they "lived" there in autonomy for decades).
(DIR) Post #AoleCyLVWyYwPoP2Po by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T11:29:42Z
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@jwcph I don’t see gravity as a big issue. If you have spin gravity there isn’t any difference.
(DIR) Post #AolghtZ5YXY6TNd0am by jwcph@helvede.net
2024-12-06T11:57:42Z
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@futurebird Exactly - Douglas Adams once illustrated it using the idea of a sentient puddle of water which, realizing how absolutely perfectly it fits in its hole, has to assume the hole was made specifically to accomodate it. That's how well we fit on the planet upon which the ecosystem that led to us developed. Life, however, is a little more complicated than pouring water in a differently-shaped hole 😝
(DIR) Post #Aolh1FRoQAkPqJS8qu by jwcph@helvede.net
2024-12-06T12:01:12Z
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@futurebird spin gravity is not an accurate simulation. It isn't even the same force, but (perhaps?) more importantly, unless the spinning simulator is absolutely gigantic (small moon sized, probably) a body the size of a human experiences significantly different gravity between head & feet - which I'm pretty sure a living system evolved in actual gravity won't appreciate...
(DIR) Post #Aolh7aQJLY3odSlzZg by syllopsium@peoplemaking.games
2024-12-06T12:02:22Z
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@futurebird I voted 'can't'. I'm dubious about the ability to continue to grow food, as far as I'm aware this has not been proven properly.I see others have brought up gravity, that's a huge issue.Really my question isn't 'can we?', it's 'why?'. What is the point? The human race are absolutely tied to Earth at the moment, and unless we invent stable wormholes, multi light year teleportation, or FTL travel it's pointless.Even if we found another biome suitable for human life through a portal the question of terraforming arises. We don't have the technology to either terraform lifeless rock from scratch, or to genocide[1]/alter a biome to match human life. As H G Wells knew in War of the Worlds, we're currently intimately tied to Earth's bacteria.It would probably be more effective to upload our consciousness, with exploration via robots.[1] If there's a planet with life on it, it will be incompatible, so unless we can magically change ourselves it'd involve killing off that life so we can live.
(DIR) Post #Aolh8sBAofUDzgJ25Q by funkula@goblin.camp
2024-12-06T12:02:25Z
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@futurebird I'm pessimistic about it, because I don't know if the physical process of development from embryo to adult can ever work properly with simulated gravity and a limited biome. It might be possible to make stations suitable for long term habitation by adults but if reproduction is risky and has a low success rate it's not going to attract anyone to found a society there
(DIR) Post #AolhPe5oRV9FEDnR7Q by Incognitim@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T12:05:36Z
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@futurebird @pitrh I feel like it's probably possible technologically...buuut who knows what shape the planet (and humans) will be in in X number of centuries.Also- musk et al could Kessler us in the next decade or two, so we may have to figure that out first. 😅
(DIR) Post #AoliSLlf8AtFDXDziS by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2024-12-06T12:17:17Z
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@futurebird I think it might be possible in principle, until machinery starts failing and there are no raw materials to make spare parts from.
(DIR) Post #Aolj5Yken7XkmOS19k by JMMaok@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T12:24:23Z
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@futurebird I think the « generations » part creates a near-impossible research and research ethics problem. How do you learn enough about human pregnancy and birth? Yes, some combination of animal models and throwing research ethics out the window. But of those people eager to go to space, how many would be comfortable with childbirth there?
(DIR) Post #Aolkn9r4ohn8GCo5c8 by epicdemiologist@wandering.shop
2024-12-06T12:42:57Z
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@futurebird Have you ever seen Silent Running?
(DIR) Post #AollCBRC4PG6PMdKk4 by JetlagJen@geekdom.social
2024-12-06T12:47:59Z
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@futurebird we have the technology and understanding *right now* to create a sealed terrarium ecosystem. A space station has additional challenges around getting it set up, controlling light levels, etc, but is it fundamentally different?Our downfall would likely be adding technology, which would eventually fail. Solar panels feeding a lighting system is more fragile than a fixed material that filters raw sunlight to something about right.
(DIR) Post #AollT29bq776XRRXuq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T12:51:04Z
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@epicdemiologist no what is it? a movie?
(DIR) Post #AollZPdjQsuX7FZgCu by epicdemiologist@wandering.shop
2024-12-06T12:51:59Z
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@futurebird Yes, from the 70s, about spacegoing ecosystems. If you decide to watch it, try to avoid spoilers. Theme song written by Peter Schickele and sung by Joan Baez is gorgeous.
(DIR) Post #AolqEgK0iKnaXlHfyC by MedeaVanamonde@chaosfem.tw
2024-12-06T13:44:20Z
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@futurebird no one has mentioned Niven Rings, plenty of room and raw power.Just dismantle the solar system.Ellen wants to be build a Dyson Sphere right now
(DIR) Post #Aolt3SpYpib7NXNsYq by ApostateEnglishman@mastodon.world
2024-12-06T14:16:01Z
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@futurebird Gary Westfahl's 1997 essay, The Case Against Space is provocative - see link. His argument is so exhaustive it's difficult to summarize. Suffice it to say his dismantling of the philosophical case alone is devastating. Contra sci-fi writers, humans have never been explorers, moving only out of necessity. "Civilization" resulted from building support systems for staying put, and tiny fractions of the public think extraterrestrial outposts should be a priority.https://www.depauw.edu/sfs/essays/westfahl%20case.html
(DIR) Post #AoluU7aO1pgHGJYsaG by michael_w_busch@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T14:32:06Z
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@futurebird Paging Kelly & @ZachWeinersmith , for their "A City On Mars" - https://www.acityonmars.com/
(DIR) Post #AomDW7leDr53X9UuI4 by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-12-06T18:05:21Z
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@futurebird @mcc There hasn’t been _in space_. But there is some work on the ground. Basic tasks are way, way weirder in spin “gravity” - in ways even shows like Babylon 5 and movies like 2001 didn’t even try to show, particularly at “ship”-like scales - so despite my “yes” vote I’m pretty hedgy about how well it’ll counter all the medical effects of microgravity. It might - but it might well not.And working on station exterior will be an absolute nightmare.
(DIR) Post #AomHG9aO5rz0MAs316 by sbourne@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T18:47:15Z
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@futurebird @mmby This reminds me of the very strict laws in pre-white-guy Hawaii covering land and water use, resource sharing, interpersonal relationships, etc.
(DIR) Post #ApTG1BIeEyk2Q4MjpY by guyjantic@infosec.exchange
2024-12-09T15:27:37Z
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@futurebird I love reading and thinking about this, though I'm not technically educated enough to make a determination. I just want to believe.I think you and others have mentioned that one big problem ignored in most sci fi is the fact that humans can't survive (or perhaps just can't thrive) without some very specific conditions: gravity in a specific range, our atmosphere, the stuff we need to eat (including a bunch of little detail food things that turn out to be pretty important), sunlight, a diurnal cycle, and then all the social and psychological needs, concerns about managing a little (or big) society including prevention of violence, resource allocation, education/skills, etc... and then we will need to do more than just survive. "Is not life more than the body?" etc.I still think it can be done, but I also think that, ultimately, we will need to hack ourselves (significantly more than we already have) as well as building special habitats.