Post AnlVcoADMWLkmL9rsG by faassen@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by faassen@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AnlUL8uVO87HxMp5BQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T11:47:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
A few months ago we drove out to PA to check on Mom and Dad. “I don’t see why the Democrats won’t just say ‘ok fine we will build your wall’ we both know the wall does nothing. What’s to lose?”“Well it it’s bad for biodiversity …”“nobody cares about that.”“Well. It’s wrong ...”“I know but that’s all these people want. then dems could win”I kept turning this conversation over in my mind for months. Today I realized what I needed to say in response. 1/
(DIR) Post #AnlUmMdWSlVoLVrM48 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T11:51:58Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
I was stumped because my brother and I talk about politics a great deal and we agree on most facts.But, today it suddenly became clear to me that part of the reason the right has become so extreme on immigration is because they are struggling to define themselves *in contrast* to Democrats who are themselves at least right leaning. Democrats effectively conceded on the need for a wall: and now the right says “mass deportation” 2/
(DIR) Post #AnlVGJj3qiL60RjV0y by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T11:57:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Harris is so tough! A prosecutor. She would be tough on the border you betcha! So if your brand is xenophobia how do you top that? Mass deportation, dogs cats, garbage island. etc. Choosing the battle line is as important as fighting hard. Can one win by retreating? Could I be wrong and this was a strategic retreat that — well what did it do? 3/3
(DIR) Post #AnlVcoADMWLkmL9rsG by faassen@fosstodon.org
2024-11-06T12:01:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird I used to say that the US Democrats are to the right of the mainstream right wing party here in the Netherlands. Unfortunately we've had our own mainstreaming of the extreme right here in our last parliamentary elections, so that's not true anymore, but it was for a long time.
(DIR) Post #AnlVkXos0uU4P8rbFI by stephan324ppm@mastodon.no2nd.earth
2024-11-06T12:02:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird so, was it all about the wall? (outsider here, looking at it from Europe ...)
(DIR) Post #AnlWBvPkOfJHOwAVpQ by mina@berlin.social
2024-11-06T12:07:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird I can't say too much about US politics, but here in Europe/Germany the not openly fascist parties concede to the narratives that "there are too many refugees", "social welfare creates wrong incentives", "we must make sure, protecting the climate does not harm the economy" and so on, but paint themselves as the lesser evil.I can't see, how this can be a winning strategy.
(DIR) Post #AnlWgunEkwWYS4vtdw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T12:13:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@stephan324ppm Not “the wall” but tension of having 8 million people who live and work in our country, who are essential to it functioning but who are not here “legally” in the sense of the letter of the law (but it is so lucrative to keep things as they are all enforcement is both performative noise and a constant stream of senseless violence inflicted on those least able to defend themselves.)
(DIR) Post #AnlX1Lt3jP0iH2Ow7c by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T12:17:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@PsyChuan Though to be honest I don’t fully understand what happened here yet. I want to say that owning media companies and propaganda is extremely effective. And one side has invested in and focused more on creating media environments that can produce this result.
(DIR) Post #AnlX7AYelWBqsIdEwK by PTR_K@dice.camp
2024-11-06T12:18:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird "...they are struggling to define themselves *in contrast* to Democrats who are themselves at least right leaning."I think this gets at the meat of things.If you don't have widely appealing ideas, then mongering fears of the outside "other" is probably the best bet you have. Anyone who doesn't go as far is seen as weak against those objects of fear.Combine this with an unrealistic call revive "the good old days" and its a 1-2 punch.
(DIR) Post #AnlYMp5kRb3Ssz8ds0 by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-11-06T12:32:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird Appeasing fascist thinking never, ever works. Ever. The fascists will just get more and more extreme and drag you with them. And then you're just another fascist too. This has been the case for thousands of years. Persian history. Greek history. Roman history. The lot.
(DIR) Post #AnlYmM2z3OR0Kp1Hpw by TruthSandwich@fedi.truth-sandwich.com
2024-11-06T12:36:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird https://mastodon.online/@billyjoebowers/113434224654379860
(DIR) Post #AnlZa57AHadyIZgesi by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-11-06T12:35:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird The 'centrists' keep making this exact same mistake here in the UK too. 'We can't beat them* so we'll just adopt a slightly less worse version of it as our position and that'll help us to win". * Of course you can't beat them. Because you never even bother trying.
(DIR) Post #AnlZa6QLPla0MLfUPo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T12:45:46Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@JonnyT I think they do try. They try as hard as they can and really think that it will work. And I’m less certain than you that it never works. In fact I think it works just often enough that they keep trying it: the best of them out of pragmatism like my brother— the worst because they don’t really want to move further left— I wish it was this simple, but it can’t be.
(DIR) Post #AnlZlXDm7hniegExl2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T12:47:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonnyT I will say that appeasing is always WRONG. But when we get into the game of pragmatic political calculation suddenly that isn’t good enough anymore. Maybe that’s the root of then.
(DIR) Post #AnlZtZi8kZzch4HFE8 by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T12:49:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird strategically, I have no idea. But as a dedicated believer in "supporting the lesser evil", it was one of those many, many things that made it much harder for me to maintain my dedication. That said, given how many times SCOTUS shot down biden's efforts to be left of Ronald Reagan, the dems had exactly two choices: (a) go full bore "SCOTUS is totally illegitimate, and we're ignoring them", or (b) concede. And they were never going to consider (a).
(DIR) Post #AnlaHcdPX18UiAX1MG by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-11-06T12:53:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird On another day I'd probably carry this on (not necessarily a good thing either) but I think I need to stop replying. Anger - not at you but instead, well, everything - is getting the better of me today and I'm posting intemperately. Just too old for this shit to be happening *again*.
(DIR) Post #AnlbLWPWiJrMWLSczo by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T13:05:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird @PsyChuan the two-forked strategy of owning both traditional media companies like wapo and "social" media companies has worked horribly well for the billionaires. I wish I'd never participated in facebook or twitter, even though my decades long amazon boycott has netted me nothing. But without those two kinds of media ownership, the whole "wall" debate would have been largely irrelevant, whatever position dems "ought" to have taken on it.
(DIR) Post #AnldHt5MfR7FayQPC4 by cshlan@dawdling.net
2024-11-06T13:27:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebirdBiden did all that. They lied and said he didn't. Their voters believed them. You're right, they're just defining themselves against the other side.
(DIR) Post #AnltgVdkZXwbO3GrY0 by australopithecus@mastodon.social
2024-11-06T16:30:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebirdMy own thoughts, likely colored by growing up in an actual religious cult:For the people on the bottom, this is simply a cult of personality. If you try to understand what they're thinking, you've already made a fundamental mistake. There is no reason, no goal, only feelings. When Donald Trump dies it will all come apart, but the damage is already done.For the people at the top, this is simply what fascism always is: they have no principles, only a desire for power.
(DIR) Post #AnlvPU1TX3XZM9NSHQ by stephan324ppm@mastodon.no2nd.earth
2024-11-06T16:50:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird not so different from here actually ...
(DIR) Post #AnmQ7DC2qlQgv51c36 by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-11-06T22:34:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird @JonnyT 1/2maybe it worked for Bill in 1992, or maybe Bill got lucky Ross Perot screwed up GOP strategymaybe it worked for Obama, or maybe Obama won because the GOP and the news went all in on "Obama is far left", and people voted Obama because they wanted a lefty, and didn't know Obama was barely less conservative than Romney
(DIR) Post #AnmQOQtXA5D2KwZuTI by freequaybuoy@mastodon.social
2024-11-06T22:37:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird But persecution of the Other must always escalate because it never pays off. So while that's an interesting insight, I think they would've done it anyway.