Post AlYpxIvO2CKXMnvVRo by Azuaron@hachyderm.io
(DIR) More posts by Azuaron@hachyderm.io
(DIR) Post #AlYiWI16bOO13NlyXw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T12:10:29Z
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When liberals explain why flag burning is legal and how ACTUALLY it's *good* somehow that people can burn it they miss the point.What sort of person would burn the flag? The same sort who'd beat a capital police officer with a flag, turn our elections into riots or our national cemeteries into carnivals for their stump speeches and commercials.This issue is a honey trap. It's not about understanding the law. It's about a profession of love for some vague shared thing.
(DIR) Post #AlYirbIq5mUEwvEI5Y by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T12:14:19Z
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"I would tear down every mountain, I would empty every ocean, I would turn the night to day to reach you my love.""That is nice but if you emptied the oceans this would upset the convection cycle and all life on earth would perish."or"I would do all that and more."The cases about flag burning are fascinating because of the tension between freedom of expression and the American obsession with symbols. It's a nerd trap.
(DIR) Post #AlYjTujYIU2QDWzexU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T12:21:09Z
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@burnoutqueen I don't think Americans should let the flag represent just the US military. Like, if a person who is in a place being attacked by the US military does it I *get* that, but when Americans do it? Feels loud. But sometimes it's the only way to get press I suppose.It makes it harder for politicians to align with ones goals. So that's worth thinking about. Like when some anti-war protests were doing it right after 9/11 I left. I just was not in the mood.
(DIR) Post #AlYjaXyJK93JeK3kWW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T12:22:25Z
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@yuki2501 That's fine, but I think it's still missing the point. It's not really about if there should be such a law about flags.
(DIR) Post #AlYjm1a9ZcmqfaEVii by JR_Kelly@mapstodon.space
2024-09-01T12:24:30Z
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@futurebird This maybe sounds a little backwards: usually the election-rioting, cemetery-spectacle types are jingoists who worship the flag (while also defacing it with cop-prop color schemes). My sense is that exactly those people would love to have the excuse to persecute/prosecute protesters who burn it.
(DIR) Post #AlYjsjauqkZouPmzfE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T12:25:44Z
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@burnoutqueen That's what bringing it up is meant to expose. It's to get people talking about the flag like it's a cold fish and the issue is technical. It exposes the fact that not everyone has sentimental emotions about it. Which some Americans will find shocking and alien.
(DIR) Post #AlYk5lPVPRY6J0fI3c by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T12:28:05Z
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@JR_Kelly Totally true. Though I think most Americans fall in a less radical middle ground on flags. Most people like the flag and don't like to see it burned. It makes them feel angry. So this is way to pin those emotions on a political rival.
(DIR) Post #AlYkGwtb30O5714bfk by Alon@mastodon.social
2024-09-01T12:30:03Z
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@futurebird Yeah, anti-corruption, anti-authoritarian protests usually wave the national flag; there are exceptional cases in which they wave a different flag, like 🤍❤️🤍 in Belarus, but in most countries, it's the national flag (in Europe, add the EU flag to supplement). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Marsz_4_czerwca_w_Warszawie.jpg
(DIR) Post #AlYkfACzCclVLogmmm by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T12:34:24Z
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@burnoutqueen And the's nothing more to America than that? Nations can be ugly things, but they encompass so much it's almost never that simple. Can you see how it's possible to care about that history but not see the flag as only a symbol of that history?
(DIR) Post #AlYmQGDukyYfZR92JM by Azuaron@hachyderm.io
2024-09-01T12:54:11Z
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@futurebird @burnoutqueen But it IS a symbol of that history. A flag is primarily the symbol of a government, and our government has always been evil. You can try to appropriate the flag to mean more community oriented things as well, but at the end of the day each star on the flag represents literal crimes against humanity.It is understandable--I would say expected, even--that people want to burn that symbol.
(DIR) Post #AlYmy0mefRNRWzUJu4 by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-09-01T13:00:16Z
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@futurebird "turn our elections into riots or our national cemeteries into carnivals"I have no idea what this is about -- there never has been a right-wing movement that has burned the US flag.Leftists often burn it for the simple reason that it is intended to symbolize the US state and we oppose the US state.
(DIR) Post #AlYnBQ0uAtXdXpXvzE by DrorBedrack@mastodon.social
2024-09-01T13:02:40Z
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@futurebird i'm just going to reference Zoidberg
(DIR) Post #AlYoBc2JZfpwmprVWy by CatHat@mstdn.party
2024-09-01T13:13:57Z
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@futurebird Aaron Bushnell burned HIMSELF for the same reason people burn American flags.
(DIR) Post #AlYpxHRDYsbUkwntmi by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2024-09-01T12:58:24Z
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@Azuaron @futurebird @burnoutqueen I don't know. A flag is a symbol of the country and that encompasses the governmentment AND the populace.So it's many things to many interpretations.
(DIR) Post #AlYpxIAworBR2mCQ40 by Azuaron@hachyderm.io
2024-09-01T13:06:25Z
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@InkySchwartz @futurebird @burnoutqueen The government picks the flag, then tells the populace that they should identify with it, then makes their children grow up pledging to it. It's part of how a government legitimizes itself. But at the end of the day, it's the government's flag. That's why they don't want us to burn it.
(DIR) Post #AlYpxIvO2CKXMnvVRo by Azuaron@hachyderm.io
2024-09-01T13:16:18Z
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@InkySchwartz @futurebird @burnoutqueen All the other things that people have made a flag mean are kind of irrelevant to flag burning, though. The flag DOES represent the government. The US flag DOES represent decades of slavery. The US flag DOES represent the genocide of native peoples. The US flag DOES represent imperialism, militarism, and oppression.Regardless of what else you've decided the flag means, it should be easy to see why people burn it.
(DIR) Post #AlYpxJXfjqxHHXq57g by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T13:33:45Z
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I mean, this is what we need to teach. It shouldn't be that hard to understand why some people hate the flag as a symbol. However when it comes up in US politics the right is counting on everyone NOT understanding, because it can be shocking how differently people will see it even when they have very similar values.
(DIR) Post #AlYqIVTWZCOQNC0K5Q by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2024-09-01T13:34:55Z
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@Azuaron @futurebird @burnoutqueen Yes, that is done, and:-Long before we had public education (late 19th cent development) people had feelings about the flag unmediated by the government. -People can be brought up with that indoctrination and still develop their own feelings about the flag.-Media creates and/or reinforces feelings and messages about the flag that can be attached to the government but also interpreted by our personal feelings.-etc.
(DIR) Post #AlYqIWBTvlYSZWZQbQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T13:37:37Z
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@InkySchwartz @Azuaron @burnoutqueen Flags make me think of the Labor Day parade in the little neighborhood where I grew up. Decorating my bike with paper streamers in red white and blue and the old man's little jazz band playing patriotic songs on the saxophone.A mostly Black neighborhood but there was some "diversity"Without those memories I think I could see it very differently. What those memories show is how profoundly experience shapes how we see symbols.
(DIR) Post #AlYqURmw6HcEPgmH56 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T13:39:46Z
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@InkySchwartz @Azuaron @burnoutqueen My attachments to the flag are very small compared to what you will find in others. I don't know if it can really be "reclaimed" I do think when the right brings it up it's to do the opposite of having a conversation like this one. We can all find a stupid reason to hate each other in short order.
(DIR) Post #AlYqYduixYKhB8QAJk by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2024-09-01T13:40:33Z
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@futurebird @Azuaron @burnoutqueen Exactly!We are not just passive consumers of messages. We create meaning based on those messages that can deviate very sharply from the intended meaning.
(DIR) Post #AlYrQKj8Vo65JDbPw8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-09-01T13:50:14Z
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@InkySchwartz @Azuaron @burnoutqueen I should probably mention *why* we had such a huge Labor Day celebration in our neighborhood. It illustrates some complexities. Our neighborhood was one of the first to integrate when the in the early 60s. It was a place constantly under siege. The neighborhood group was formed to protect it, they also organized the parade as a yearly tradition to make it clear that not only were they integrated, they liked it that way.
(DIR) Post #AlZ2FA0v6Ny0OQnOQy by 20000lbs_of_Cheese@anarchism.space
2024-09-01T15:51:25Z
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@futurebirdI'm tired of all the flags. It's a sign of a dangerous household up here in Idaho. I'd like if every one of them was buried or burned.How old does my friend's kid get before I tell him not to go looking for help from flag flyers? Y'all can keep the thing, but symbols mean things beyond what we desire.
(DIR) Post #AlaUoyTgShREuk4jlg by bovaz@mastodon.online
2024-09-02T08:46:20Z
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@futurebird The last groups I remember doing it in Italy (where it's been illegal since forever) where one of the far right "patriot" parties we have in government now. At the time, a core of their platform was that Italy should be divided in separate states, so that richer regions could get rid of poorer ones. They were all forgiven in exchange for political support for Berlusconi, at the time.