Post Aj85uCP16D2D0UpcrA by tess@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by tess@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #Aj6tEJ8AIggZ6UFQ92 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T06:13:54Z
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For eight years Fedora has been shipping GNOME with a broken screen reader!EIGHT YEARS!(Wayland has been default on Fedora for eight years – since Fedora 25, released on 2016.)And a hundred-billion-dollar corporation like IBM ships operating systems today based on it with a broken screen reader.What is an ableist culture? One in which the people who call this out get ostracised.#ableism #fedora #redHat #IBM #gnome #cosmic #wayland #a11y #system76 #linux https://fosstodon.org/@soller/112646375569571307
(DIR) Post #Aj6tyAl7l46sSbLB4q by vanderZwan@vis.social
2024-06-20T06:22:05Z
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@aralI feel like we should kind of expect that from a profession where people justify being paid more than the average person to themselves by buying into the "meritocracy" nonsense. Especially in open source contexts.(I'm not defending this, just pointing to one of the root systematic filters towards this kind of attitude that needs to be addressed)
(DIR) Post #Aj6zYWiS6FRokpFGFc by ParsaRanjbar@khiar.net
2024-06-20T07:24:31Z
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@aral You have a lot of alternatives:OpenSUSE, Debian, even Parch GNU/Linux (if you're ok with Arch)!
(DIR) Post #Aj6zqtG91SZtsrlElE by gneilyo@mastodon.online
2024-06-20T07:28:08Z
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@aral I have a word and a number for all the people mewling in your mentions about how being bluntly critical of the problem is counter productive: Windows 8.1
(DIR) Post #Aj72AyCSYySkuHjvjE by xbezdick@masto.ai
2024-06-20T07:54:11Z
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@aral Fedora is not IBM but a bunch of people mostly working on a project for free. Xorg is a security concern so the switch was justified even with not all features being present. Instead of trying to shame opensource developers and unjustly calling them IBM you can grab some issues and help working on them.
(DIR) Post #Aj75RQX1IJ5VGttaQi by jgamble@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T08:23:54Z
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@xbezdick @aral What?Red Hat was a 3.4 billion dollar company at the time of its acquisition by IBM. You don't reach that solely through unpaid volunteers.
(DIR) Post #Aj75vWoEWDbLQeIgKG by mattb@hachyderm.io
2024-06-20T08:34:02Z
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@jgamble @xbezdick @aral Fedora is not Red Hat. Not in theory, not in practise.
(DIR) Post #Aj75vY8pZ7fhYowe4O by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T08:35:52Z
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@mattb @jgamble @xbezdick Billion-dollar corporation when it comes to the profits, volunteer-run effort when it comes to criticism. Good gig if you can get it.
(DIR) Post #Aj76AcYfQVIxbQDT0q by mattb@hachyderm.io
2024-06-20T08:38:53Z
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@aral @jgamble @xbezdick If you'd levelled the same criticism at RHEL it might have been valid.
(DIR) Post #Aj76DtSf2O7StZy2Km by xbezdick@masto.ai
2024-06-20T08:39:15Z
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@aral @mattb @jgamble I was using Fedora pretty much from day 1. I remember hour and hours spent packaging and helping with Fedora development as an student. I worked on Fedora while slaving hours in an startup and after I joined RedHat I pretty much stopped working on it as I have other things to do. It's offending what you say there. And I will repeat my self - where are the tracking issues, what did you do for them being fixed?
(DIR) Post #Aj76f2rKCkrDrRRzw8 by mihaios@mastodon.social
2024-06-20T08:43:57Z
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@aral I fully agree that accessibility is important and should be a priority.I must say, however, that I feel like your tone and attitude with regard to this situation are toxic, creating divisive comments instead of helping to reach the accessibility goal.
(DIR) Post #Aj76uKZMdlm98GL2Ya by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T08:47:07Z
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@mattb @jgamble @xbezdick RHEL is IBM. It’s right there in the original post.
(DIR) Post #Aj76yRlZpA3qbz0tUm by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T08:47:56Z
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@mihaios Look up tone policing.Eight years of whispering appearently didn’t work. If anyone was even whispering, that is.
(DIR) Post #Aj774CHoI9NEL2pfA8 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T08:48:53Z
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@xbezdick @mattb @jgamble I’m sorry you’re offended. Imagine how offended disabled people feel by being excluded.
(DIR) Post #Aj7GswQzt4MHWzOvNw by fyberpunk@mastodon.social
2024-06-20T10:38:52Z
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@aral So to get a functional screen reader, you need *checks notes* two extra clicks on the login screen to get X11, which works better or worse depending on your needs around many aspects of the desktop, which is why the choice is still there. Yes it's an ableist culture that allowed screen readers to remain broken on Wayland so long. GNOME is not a perfect project. But your comments sound like they're seeking to sow division around a volunteer project I'm a member of.
(DIR) Post #Aj7H2VpHff8Tu2KC4O by datn@xoxo.zone
2024-06-20T08:39:44Z
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@mattb @jgamble @xbezdick @aral Red Hat is liable for the Fedora Project's actions.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project#Governance
(DIR) Post #Aj7HJ1fn25z5J7l4RE by sun@shitposter.world
2024-06-20T10:44:11.048919Z
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@chris @aral Can you continue to use Xorg? It takes time to add features to software but I agree eight years is way too long for basic accessibility features. Honestly, accessibility should be a top-priority feature.
(DIR) Post #Aj7HnAHzYwTWiXzxKK by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T10:49:03Z
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@fyberpunk Yes, this comment is a perfect example of the ableism in open source in general and in the GNOME project in particular.Screen reader doesn’t work? “Oh, just use a different display environment to the one that ships and is supported by default. No biggie, bro!”“Oh, any by the way, we’re going to drop support for that display environment: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6#Why_drop_the_X11_session”
(DIR) Post #Aj7HyAynKtwi2nGljE by Inginsub@clubcyberia.co
2024-06-20T10:51:30.028950Z
5 likes, 0 repeats
@aral what is the use case for a working screen reader?
(DIR) Post #Aj7JRkwIojijvJlx9E by tmcfarlane@toot.community
2024-06-20T11:03:41Z
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@chris @aral I hadn't heard about Wayland breaking accessibility, that is unforgivable! As someone that didn't think moving a window with a mouse was actually the most important thing in the world, I remain perpetually bemused by the cost/benefits trade off of Wayland. A collosal waste of effort, with trivial gains and epic losses.
(DIR) Post #Aj7JRlnTd2FsaEeQ1w by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T11:07:42Z
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@tmcfarlane @chris There are very real reasons why Wayland is necessary: security being one of them. Every X11 app is a potential keylogger by design. A system that has its origins in the days of dumb terminals has a fundamentally broken security model today. So this isn’t about Wayland being unnecessary, etc. Wayland is the way forward. This is about accessibility not being considered a show stopper but a “nice to have… if there’s time.” In other words, an ableist culture.
(DIR) Post #Aj7L7xzul0cgXW9ZI0 by tmcfarlane@toot.community
2024-06-20T11:26:31Z
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@aral @chris Wayland seemed like the wrong fix. Initially they dismissed tiling window managers as a model, and that's why I am stuck on X11. I have very poor eyesight (though not blind, enough that I can't pass a driving test). Programmable window managers (xmonaf for a while now) help me build a practical desktop that works for me. When Wayland started the entire approach was dismissed. Fine for a niche product, crap when your blessed by the largest vendors before problems are solved.
(DIR) Post #Aj7TTGmktoJQWVfR7w by 7331@mastodon.de
2024-06-20T12:59:33Z
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@aral then why do you put the blame on individuals who have done exactly as much as you did instead of the hundred-billion-dollar corporation?
(DIR) Post #Aj7wsM4JI6OeoqBycq by tess@mastodon.social
2024-06-20T18:29:25Z
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@aral accessibility is a P0 feature for any product; you shouldn't ship a product without it; a product without accessibility is fundamentally broken.If X11 is a "security concern" then maybe creating a whole new product and launching it in a broken state wasn't the right answer (Wayland is an absolute nightmare for me, but for other reasons, so I share some of your pain).Also the fucking _gall_ to ship a broken product and then say, "well, you could always contribute patches to fix it".
(DIR) Post #Aj854VMjLjqolI72pM by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T20:01:16Z
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@david_chisnall @tmcfarlane @chris Hadn’t heard of Arcan; will take a look (just for curiosity’s sake, I can’t afford yet another tangent for anything more involved at the moment) – thanks :)
(DIR) Post #Aj85uCP16D2D0UpcrA by tess@mastodon.social
2024-06-20T18:30:35Z
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@aral like, "oh yes, now that my linux no longer allows me to get anything done effectively, I will be happy to use my broken system to fix my broken system, great plan, A+, no notes"Honorable mention to "we're creating a library that (at some unspecified future point) you can compile into your application to fix the problem; no, this will not fix every other application on your system or any legacy software, why do you ask?"
(DIR) Post #Aj9oIuhyc4T0VhFsHo by pixelate@tweesecake.social
2024-06-21T16:01:07Z
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@tess @aral Something like: We just made a huge building for your use! It's just for *you*! It's *your* building!Person walks up to the building, there are no doors, no windows, just walls all around. Person can't get in.They go to the building maker, but are told "Well, that's okay, just build doors into the building. Not too hard, right?
(DIR) Post #AjAGa4mUSdYVxPFg3c by pixelate@tweesecake.social
2024-06-21T20:14:32Z
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@tess @aral Also, I've been telling people for the past four or so years I've been around Mastodon. I wrote a blog post [1] about it like two or so years ago. And for the last ten years, I've always stuck to using the Mate desktop or spin or whatever, because I knew Gnome wasn't very accessible. So I've always used X11, and broke my audio a few weeks ago on my Fedora 40 system trying to switch back from Pipewire to Pulseaudio, where Emacspeak is more responsive. I've been telling people that Microsoft is going to do something so crazy that people will switch to Linux, if not on mass, then at least more than usual. And Recall was it. And even if they don't launch it this year, we all know they eventually will. So yeah, the time to really pile on to accessibility was years ago. But no. Last year, someone who has been using Linux for the last, oh I don't even know, 15 years ago? Longer than I have, talked about why they decided to not even deal with the GUI anymore, and now they use an iPhone. Lol they've probably gone all Apple by now. And what did the Gnome folks do? Well, a person who I think is even a member of the Gnome foundation basically called them a liar, and when I asked for solidarity from the comunity, I mostly got nothing. No one gives a damn, and that's very obvious to me. I posted on the System76's MatterMost a few years ago, asking about accessibility, and all I got before I left was something like "Well we'll worry about that when we start working on more of the GUI." No, planning needed to start at the beginning, not when, more likely, they're about to ship it. These days, I'm more like it would be nice, but it won't happen. That's why we blind people make the most of Windows and the iPhone, and try to minimize corporate abuse.[1] https://scribe.rip/@r.d.t.prater/linux-accessibility-an-unmaintained-mess-8fbf9decaf8a
(DIR) Post #AjB3rTE1j7wyRj3W0e by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-22T06:31:53Z
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@Chiquidrakula It means that any Linux distribution that ships with Wayland by default (any Linux distribution that ships the default configuration of the two major display environments – GNOME and KDE – which ship with Wayland as default by default) like Fedora, Ubuntu, OpenSUSE, etc., are inaccessible to disabled people who need a screen reader in order to use a computer.
(DIR) Post #AjB47hywd5EAqYkBo8 by weirdwriter@tweesecake.social
2024-06-22T01:45:09Z
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@tess @aral This is everything right here! And people really do wonder why we stick with big Tech as problematic as it is. I honestly can’t tell which is more frustrating these days. I think we are all well aware of the issues caused by big tech but I never seen such irony as The open source community. Well, if your system isn’t working, you could use the system that you can’t use to contribute code on the system that you can’t use. Blows my mind every time. When open source actually works collaboratively, and without the elitism, it really is the best way to make Tech. I’ve contributed to fantastic open source environments and tools and otherwise, but there’s just something about the community as a whole that percolates this kind of ironic accessibility view all throughout the projects that I encounter. Even though big tech could be better in their accessibility, at least they give us breadcrumbs. The open source community turns around and says, if you want it, you make this thing accessible, not me.
(DIR) Post #AjB6NApLriRyYpl7rM by dzwiedziu@mastodon.social
2024-06-22T06:56:53Z
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@weirdwriter This thread made me ask myself what this situation would be if instead “Patches welcome” we got “We need help with this”.@tess @aral
(DIR) Post #AjB6NC29NcHYIokrRo by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-22T07:00:01Z
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@dzwiedziu @weirdwriter @tess It depends. If you’re a multi-trillion-dollar corporation like IBM, then the answer is “then hire the fucking help and pay them to fix this like you do for things you actually think are important for your bottom line.”
(DIR) Post #AjB6vN9AZFyAcDKt4y by dzwiedziu@mastodon.social
2024-06-22T07:06:15Z
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@aral Not even getting there, but on a more interpersonal/communal level.I think I've just imagined a situation where someone is conscious enough to ask for help when presented with a problem above their head.@weirdwriter @tess
(DIR) Post #AjBOn60IDhjGIyO3mK by docRekd@hachyderm.io
2024-06-22T10:26:25Z
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@Chiquidrakula @aral kde has an option to let x11 app to act as screenlogger, which is what breaks accessibility, even on wayland. Please don't spread fud
(DIR) Post #AjBWTCQTQpka45eliC by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-22T11:52:29Z
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@docRekd @Chiquidrakula What’s the FUD I’m spreading, exactly? KDE ships with Wayland by default also. Orca is broken under Wayland. Hence Orca is broken by default under KDE. Hence KDE ships with a broken screen reader by default just like GNOME.If there’s a factual error in the statements above, please correct me and I will revise my understanding of the state of affairs.
(DIR) Post #AjBaMBkxvEp3mJ9bU0 by fasterandworse@hci.social
2024-06-22T12:36:02Z
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@aral the aura of care
(DIR) Post #AjBkPugoJm89XtcpO4 by docRekd@hachyderm.io
2024-06-22T14:28:46Z
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@Chiquidrakula @aralNeither Mac nor windows have screen readers installed by default, so no OS is accessible by the blind out of the box. They all require *some* configuration by some sighted person beforehand.If the configuration to enable the screen reader required the editing of arcane config files then I would agree with you, but it still as easy as installing orca and toggling a checkbox in the setting.Reasonable for disabling a security feature
(DIR) Post #AjBqwOk6iRfzkI2ZE0 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-22T15:41:53Z
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@docRekd @Chiquidrakula What planet are you living on?macOS comes with Voiceover.Windows (*spit*) comes with Narrator.You’re talking out of your ass.
(DIR) Post #AjD7s5pSzFHWJ52Xo0 by eclipseo@framapiaf.org
2024-06-23T06:26:18Z
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@aral@ChiquidrakulaAre you sure though? I am on Fedora 40 KDE, so with Wayland, and I accidentally started Orca last week and it started reading me buttons and stuff with a terrible voice.
(DIR) Post #AjDdXCaxpgPpk9L4hU by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-23T12:21:04Z
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@eclipseo @Chiquidrakula A screen reader isn’t a passive app that just reads what’s on the screen. It is controlled by a person who tells it what to read and uses it to navigate through an operating system, apps, and documents interactively. What makes Orca broken on any Linux distribution that ships with Wayland by default is that you cannot control the screen reader because the global key you use to activate it doesn’t work. (And it’s not a trivial fix; it requires major work to fix properly.)
(DIR) Post #AjDkupxgKoKOAxBLlo by eclipseo@framapiaf.org
2024-06-23T13:43:44Z
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@aral @Chiquidrakula Thanks for explaining. I agree it won't be the Year Of Desktop Linux if we don't have functional accessibility features.
(DIR) Post #AjWjaWqq0eXjcyMEBE by das_menschy@toot.bike
2024-07-02T17:27:20Z
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@aral yes, it's a big problem. But please don't shame people. It's more constructive to help and improve.