Post AhVvCALwlHuH0fDBxY by john@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by john@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AhVl2cg5JpoJPI0Oae by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:26:11Z
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Does anybody know if there’s a traditional composite material that behaves something like fibreglass? As in fibre/fabric laid up in a binder of some sort to make a stiff material in arbitrary forms. Paper mache is one but it’s too weak (I think, maybe there's a super version?). I'm considering things like cotton or flax in casein glue or pine resin... but I doubt it will work.(And my last casein glue experiment stunk like rotten milk for weeks!)#maker #makers #LowTech
(DIR) Post #AhVlRcslhAwHHTrPYO by mike@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:30:45Z
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@john You know about pycrete? And the pycrete aircraft carrier?
(DIR) Post #AhVlYb56n1UriqxMlU by miekeroth@socialserver.science
2024-05-03T10:31:50Z
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@john I'm not sure how it's called in English (or Dutch for that matter ), but artists working with textiles use a specific kind of glue to fixate shapes. I looked it up: one of those is called Paverpol textile hardener
(DIR) Post #AhVlYnE3dZmlO5EgNc by belehaa@wandering.shop
2024-05-03T10:31:55Z
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@john Like fabric & plaster, you mean?
(DIR) Post #AhVla7zNvQMk4c0dX6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:31:58Z
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@john I think micarta can be made by layering ordinary construction paper (in rainbow patterns if you like) and painting on slow-cure clear epoxy resin. It’s stronger than wood with similar flexibility and workability. Resin can also be combined with fabric for similar results?
(DIR) Post #AhVlc1urTWrRokngrg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:32:30Z
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@john what are you making?
(DIR) Post #AhVljUkafUkfGyYWdU by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:33:52Z
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@mike Indeed, it's temperature sensitivity and weight might be a problem on my bike…
(DIR) Post #AhVlnYSCqBmPuvtOy0 by fastness@mastodon.social
2024-05-03T10:34:39Z
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@john I remember hearing about ancient Greek armour that might have been a composite of linen and twine (maybe glue?) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinothoraxI don't know if that's the type of thing you're looking for
(DIR) Post #AhVloKcTlIWBIh4Hdw by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:34:48Z
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@futurebird Yeah, I’m trying for biodegradable, so no epoxy!
(DIR) Post #AhVltTy8QeNvkEeaBc by jacquiharper@mastodon.world
2024-05-03T10:35:18Z
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@john Contact your local orthopedist and ask where they get their casting materials 😍 they come in prepackaged rolls in a multitude of colors (some obnoxious, but hey!)
(DIR) Post #AhVlu2jTBARzYt3rge by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:35:35Z
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@molenaar Yes, but what? I see a lot of epoxy stuff, which is what I don't want.
(DIR) Post #AhVluv2pFQ1G0YX5M0 by mike@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:35:39Z
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@john Right, but if you wanted it for an aircraft carrier ...
(DIR) Post #AhVlyq7rTfQxuXl2RM by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:36:28Z
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@fastness Yeah, that's right. I'm not sure what they used for glue. Probably casein?
(DIR) Post #AhVmGFkpRcj8JrHtTs by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:39:51Z
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I should clarify, the point is to be biodegradable, I already know I can mix epoxies with flax fibre for a pretty strong composite, for example. But epoxies aren't biodegradble. #maker #makers #LowTech
(DIR) Post #AhVmGplRYobq0BqtRA by amcewen@mastodon.me.uk
2024-05-03T10:39:57Z
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@john Surjan Singh did a bunch of experiments, and documented things as he went, into a linen and casein composite.https://surjan.substack.com/p/38-finally-a-finaleThat link is to the end of his experiments, but it's worth checking out a bunch of the earlier installments too
(DIR) Post #AhVmHWfE3oBZ3MH2DQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:40:00Z
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@john Ahh… urushi is amazing— but should you choose to work with it get all the protective gear, you see I used to be one of those lucky people who were not sensitive to poison ivy— and at first it seemed that I was not susceptible to urushi either… but I guess there is a threshold and after so much exposure I developed an allergy to the stuff and now I can’t work with it anymore— basically simple plastic gloves are not enough. The cure process and time is outrageous but the results are ✨
(DIR) Post #AhVmVO7Gda1Eb503gO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:42:32Z
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@john I have not tried this, but depending on the application maybe encaustic paint could be soaked into fabric— it also cures and lasts forever— but it’s not very strong and will always be sensitive to heat.
(DIR) Post #AhVmZ5EGnigjB72NtI by Tak@glitch.taks.garden
2024-05-03T10:42:39Z
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@john Some native american groups used birch bark and pitch (pine, I guess?) for canoe bodies?
(DIR) Post #AhVmZs7Z1RRGoVHDk0 by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:43:01Z
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@futurebird Ah yes, lacquer. I've considered that, not sure about the expense, not sure about it's strength, led to me not trying it.
(DIR) Post #AhVmd5XfZzYzJ61NYm by Limnobotanik@norden.social
2024-05-03T10:43:47Z
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@john what about linoleum?
(DIR) Post #AhVmqUDt7yVPcO9obA by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:46:14Z
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@amcewen Great, that is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for, So my flax+casein idea seems like the right track.
(DIR) Post #AhVmrT44v3u6Jd2LHE by paris@wandering.shop
2024-05-03T10:46:32Z
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@john Fish glue/isinglass? http://www.albaconservation.com/blog/2015/9/3/step-by-step-how-to-make-glue-from-fish-bladders
(DIR) Post #AhVmy9Iao5VP2X0mNU by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:47:47Z
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@Limnobotanik Huh, I always thought that was just vinyl - that's pretty interesting. Can it be made stiff?
(DIR) Post #AhVnMQ5A3g0S2hIntA by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:52:07Z
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@futurebird A part for my bike. Depends on how strong I can make it, but either just a mudguard, or a mudguard/rack/seat/battery-holding/trailer-towing complex.
(DIR) Post #AhVnaFCZJC96LqMJuq by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:53:42Z
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@belehaa That would sure be one. Probably too brittle and heavy for my purpose (non-frame bike parts).
(DIR) Post #AhVneL2PYGwXbtYnLc by belehaa@wandering.shop
2024-05-03T10:55:20Z
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@john Yeah that’s not the solution you’re looking for. Hopefully someone else has a winning idea for you
(DIR) Post #AhVnksLYchu0eYdIv2 by Limnobotanik@norden.social
2024-05-03T10:56:25Z
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@john the linoleum floor panels we have are still a bit elastic, so not sure. But I saß told it's biodegradable, just jute fabric, linseed oil, ground cork and natural resin (like colophonium).
(DIR) Post #AhVnmuwnvOYzIZ1pT6 by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:56:59Z
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@DaveMWilburn Yeah, it's for bike parts, so it needs some water and heat resistance. Paint should keep enough water out from most things, but it needs to be fairly robust in that respect.
(DIR) Post #AhVnqQy5KT7TTfIvjM by fastness@mastodon.social
2024-05-03T10:57:38Z
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@john probably, although I think there's some doubt if they did use glue or not. I thought of another example after I sent the last message: I think there's some evidence of leather and wood shields, there was a series of videos I watched that seemed well sourced https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=tod%27s+workshop+shield (hope the link works, on mobile)
(DIR) Post #AhVo0FAs26brnNxj4S by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T10:58:59Z
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@paris I’v considered animal glues. Two things put me off - I'll need a lot of it to use it in a composite, and they are very susceptible to moisture, right?
(DIR) Post #AhVo7oW12BCBQmSjdw by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:00:30Z
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@fastness Leather is actually a pretty cool idea, but I don't think I could practically work it at the size I need (I wouldn't fit in my oven).
(DIR) Post #AhVoNCGl03q9Rif1JA by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:03:26Z
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@Tak That's an interesting one. I think I had some difficulty getting pitch when I was considering something along those lines.
(DIR) Post #AhVoNheEKq2IlUshhQ by fritzoids@mas.to
2024-05-03T11:03:30Z
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@john I'm guessing leather is out of the question? I know it isn't a composite but it is biodegradable and it can be shaped and sewn/ glued together.
(DIR) Post #AhVoYO3dVlhvBzrLCy by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:05:23Z
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@fritzoids It isn't, but I suspect it's probably not practical for me to work it at scale I want. I'd need to do a lot of joining and I very much doubt I have the skill!
(DIR) Post #AhVp19I9UPkJnLMbsO by mgdm@altelectron.org.uk
2024-05-03T11:08:21.391304Z
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@john I have a very vague memory of the documentary about the glider built in Colditz using something like ground up millet, painted onto fabric, to form the skin for the fuselage and wings
(DIR) Post #AhVp19ygwFm1vHGaBM by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:10:37Z
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@mgdm That sounds like some sort of starch glue maybe?
(DIR) Post #AhVp3VNAMeVWrApfxg by Tak@glitch.taks.garden
2024-05-03T11:10:57Z
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@john I can imagine that it's maybe not easy to acquire in bulk
(DIR) Post #AhVpMC3OPqLeRTUkYC by econads@mendeddrum.org
2024-05-03T11:12:29Z
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@DaveMWilburn @john If it's just waterproofing you need it for, maybe enough wood oil would be OK?
(DIR) Post #AhVpMCfg7UyOMDPKE4 by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:14:24Z
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@econads @DaveMWilburn Yeah, or wax.
(DIR) Post #AhVpUOilCfHc2skxYe by paris@wandering.shop
2024-05-03T11:15:58Z
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@john Isinglass can be reset (softened) with moisture, yes, and also heat. I'm not sure about the composite aspect. What's your application?
(DIR) Post #AhVpf1W7oZk5GWufr6 by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:17:56Z
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@paris A bike part. Mudguard+ other things depending on the strength.
(DIR) Post #AhVq8XVLxsTks4ctii by paris@wandering.shop
2024-05-03T11:23:15Z
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@john Ah, then, yes, I'd say isinglass is not a great option, unless you were going to seal it, which would present its own issues. The only other thing I can think offhand might be (naturally occurring) bitumen, which should be sturdy, moldable, and waterproof enough for your use.
(DIR) Post #AhVqOrTvSUeLShk2zo by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-05-03T11:26:06Z
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@john @futurebird Is cow gum biodegradable? I have a vague recollection of using it as a child with sheets of newspaper to create sculptures.
(DIR) Post #AhVqqdKDga4HfGRbwO by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:30:53Z
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@JonnyT @futurebird I had not heard of cow gum until now, but it looks like it's a latex glue. So I think it's biodegradable, but the latex glues I have stay really flexible (good for some things, not for what I want this time). Also they degrade in UV, which isn’t ideal, although could probably be worked around.
(DIR) Post #AhVqznWx6zkTvElne4 by ryanprior@mastodon.social
2024-05-03T11:32:52Z
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@john the Otzi neolithic ice man used fur and birch bark over a wooden frame for rigid construction of his backpack.
(DIR) Post #AhVr3S6uh0nceDKi4e by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-05-03T11:33:33Z
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@john @futurebird Now I've thought on it a bit more, I may have the wrong glue. It was more likely to be the milky, watery one. You'd soak the paper in a tray of the glue and apply the paper wet to the surface. When it dried it was rock hard. Can't recall what that glue was, sorry, but it was widespread in arts classes in the 70s.
(DIR) Post #AhVrAM6LQuee2OMIbo by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:34:50Z
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@JonnyT Probably PVA, right? Could be a starch glue too.
(DIR) Post #AhVrK2lu9gPMz2Pxgm by gooba42@mastodon.social
2024-05-03T11:36:27Z
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@john The closest things I can think of are cob and straw in a clay slip.
(DIR) Post #AhVrT50TDOnkWNXV8i by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-05-03T11:38:10Z
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@john Oh yes, we definitely used a starch glue for similar purposes. Sticky, gloopy stuff. It was that one or the milky one that you could put on your hand, leave to dry for a bit and then peel off to give you a translucent skin with your palm/finger prints, Mission Impossible style.
(DIR) Post #AhVrfgTXjT76Ci9FNw by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T11:40:27Z
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@JonnyT definitely sounds like PVA. Which is a great glue, and I use it all the time, but it’s not really biodegradable, probably (it’s complicated!)
(DIR) Post #AhVrpekb05xVkYsalU by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-05-03T11:41:59Z
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@john Yeah, the starch glue probably would be but would not survive exposure to water if I remember right. Looks like you found your alternative from another poster so I'll lay my vague school-based recollections to rest now.
(DIR) Post #AhVtZq0nYz6Lx32jgW by Artemis201@mstdn.social
2024-05-03T12:01:03Z
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@john I think grass-and-mud structures technically would fit the bill of a fiber layered and glued with natural binding material, but I suspect that doesn't work for your project
(DIR) Post #AhVtb1vijn0dCjEj2m by miekeroth@socialserver.science
2024-05-03T10:32:37Z
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@john https://www.paverpol.com/en_GB/c-4466935/working-with-paverpol/
(DIR) Post #AhVtb2WaWiV334UAVc by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:02:00Z
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@miekeroth Interesting, what is it?
(DIR) Post #AhVtg0HUZbVQYGECUy by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:02:51Z
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@Akki That's interesting, I wonder what it's brittleness/strength is like?
(DIR) Post #AhVuATGPNi397vFVZI by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:08:26Z
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@john @mike if it's for your bike, maybe you should add #BikeTooter or some such to the post?
(DIR) Post #AhVuNfheRXsnTIHobA by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:10:46Z
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@Maker_of_Things Yes indeed, I started making it that way! It seems to tick a lot of boxes, in that it's light, strong, and the materials seem easy to get.But there are a few things I’m not happy with. Compound curves are really hard, I'm getting delamination because it's difficult to maintain pressure evenly over the surface. It's really damn slow. Like way too slow. It's also quite expensive, because wood veneers without backing are a specialty material, apparently.
(DIR) Post #AhVv4zGvYuTqcEROr2 by felichsdakatze@mastodon.social
2024-05-03T12:18:36Z
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@john When I studied urushi, paper, wickerwork, cloth, whatever could be coated with a mix of urushi, a paste used in making the paper doors (and maybe hanging wallpaper?), and sometimes bulked out with some kind of powder (rice flour would do). It might last longer than you'd like though. Urushi can and does last a very long time.
(DIR) Post #AhVvCALwlHuH0fDBxY by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:19:58Z
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@felichsdakatze How strong is it?
(DIR) Post #AhVvIBSZYjpwBEBFZY by markno@mastodon.online
2024-05-03T12:21:01Z
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@john how about layering with shellac? That’s pretty tough and reasonably waterproof.
(DIR) Post #AhVvOv4Eu8jzMo0ig4 by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:22:10Z
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@markno how strong is shellac?
(DIR) Post #AhVvTEnrT8sfjcPQMC by felichsdakatze@mastodon.social
2024-05-03T12:23:01Z
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@john Very. When they repair broken plates and bowls, urushi is essentially the glue. The gold/silver powder is just used to make it look pretty. The bulk it out the same way with a starchy powder to repair deep chips etc.
(DIR) Post #AhVvnSKStETHTaIedU by gratefulwolf@archaeo.social
2024-05-03T12:26:28Z
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@john A comprehensive review of natural fibers and their composites ? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590123023003985
(DIR) Post #AhVwJpr8x68Ri81aiG by markno@mastodon.online
2024-05-03T12:32:31Z
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@john I’ve seen it used to glue metal to wood. There it’s strong enough to be a right pain if you ever need to get the parts apart again :)I’d imagine it’d be good for layering with paper/cloth/etc. though might take a while to dry.For glueing you mix it a lot thicker than for polishing.
(DIR) Post #AhVwnwHvbQIyLYuKWm by sylesej@mastodon.world
2024-05-03T12:37:55Z
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@john @molenaar hi John. You've been pretty clear that you don't want epoxies, but I'll try and change your mind. Since you are building a durable product that is supposed (hopefully) to be used for many years, I'd argue that durability, including to biodegradation should actually be a design goal of yours. Thus I'd like to suggest using a bio based epoxy such as this product https://www.easycomposites.eu/LB2-epoxy-laminating-resin along with flax or hemp reinforcement.
(DIR) Post #AhVxf3Ky7oNdYaekwy by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:47:34Z
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@sylesej @molenaar my understanding is that the bio-epoxies are derived from biological sources, but are usually non-biodegradable because they’re just epoxies, chemically.There are some that claim biodegradability, but I could actually buy any last time I checked.And of course there is the aesthetic/challenge element here, of making things out of more basic materials.
(DIR) Post #AhVxrP1dJa3cIRV89w by sylesej@mastodon.world
2024-05-03T12:42:06Z
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@john @molenaar of course, if you are building a single use bicycle component it is not the right choice, but then I'd also argue you are probably heading out the wrong track. My recommendation is to build a long lasting component. Make sure it is used as long as practically possible, repaired if necessary and disposed of in a proper way when it is no longer useable.Focusing on the disposal hampers the other important characteristics too much in my view. Also in terms of sustainability.
(DIR) Post #AhVxrPb5BmPi4O5RPk by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T12:49:48Z
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@sylesej @molenaar yeah, I mean I live in the modern world, and go through orders of magnitude more plastic than a single durable item like this every year. It’s more of a challenge aspect I guess.
(DIR) Post #AhVxrQUjqqvur07tAG by sylesej@mastodon.world
2024-05-03T12:44:57Z
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@john @molenaar and research in recycling of composite materials has come a long way in recent years (https://greenpowerdenmark.dk/nyheder/koden-er-knaekket-til-genanvendelse-vindmoellevinger) perhaps it will be possible to recycle your components when the time comes?
(DIR) Post #AhVz8L67GrZYzZEobY by markno@mastodon.online
2024-05-03T13:04:03Z
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@john here’s a use case: a binder for grinding wheels. They’re pretty rigid :)https://www.afsuter.com/product-category/industry/industrial-other/
(DIR) Post #AhVzXXQKa1r6Sai0yO by fidgetyhands@wandering.shop
2024-05-03T13:08:28Z
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@john I don't know how historically accurate it is, but I have read about a recreation that was linen fabric strengthened with rabbit glue. https://jhupress.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/unraveling-the-linothorax-mystery-or-how-linen-armor-came-to-dominate-our-lives/
(DIR) Post #AhW0B9N3QYXxRe44qO by miekeroth@socialserver.science
2024-05-03T13:15:43Z
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@john I'm not sure. It's water-based and non-toxic and can harden any material that can absorb fluids.
(DIR) Post #AhW0sq8sHRqQY9GVLU by Wharrrrrrgarbl@an.errant.cloud
2024-05-03T13:23:40Z
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@john there were classical and medieval armors made from linen boiled in or laminated with wax; maybe something like that?
(DIR) Post #AhW2KDMc9QCULLJDXs by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T13:39:45Z
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@Wharrrrrrgarbl Yeah, I'd be worried about it melting in the sun, but if it worked for them?
(DIR) Post #AhW2LTg8ygAVEV2uoa by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T13:40:04Z
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@neckspike What sort of resin?
(DIR) Post #AhW50L7rsiU6UJcsYi by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T14:09:51Z
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@neckspike yes, perhaps it’s not clear, but a large part of this is avoiding epoxies. Shellac is interesting, but I do wonder about price and strength.
(DIR) Post #AhW5B4S4DSlzxXBtrs by dave0@a2mi.social
2024-05-03T14:11:47Z
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@john Casein-based glue? I feel like folks used to get surprisingly robust results with textile/fiber and a paste made mostly of maybe evaporated milk? It was a 60s/70s theater thing.
(DIR) Post #AhW6gdVA3F6Jb0FmZU by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T14:28:35Z
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@neckspike looks like dammar is cheaper than shellac, but more expensive than rosin. Might be viable!Hyde glue is probably too moisture sensitive for a mud guard.
(DIR) Post #AhW6oXivPxGBzaSh3Q by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T14:29:51Z
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@dave0 yep, that’s why I mentioned it, I’m not very clear on its properties or exathow to do it, but someone linked to a page about it up thread.
(DIR) Post #AhWCcwV24i9h5EocAC by c_dan4th@mstdn.social
2024-05-03T15:35:07Z
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@john Canoes used to be made with wood frames wrapped with a canvas layer. I believe there was a binder as well.
(DIR) Post #AhWD5F1GoO8ed9O7vc by john@sauropods.win
2024-05-03T15:40:23Z
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@c_dan4th Yep, stretched canvas is something I use sometimes, but it need the wooden frame. I'm after something that has rigidity of it's own.
(DIR) Post #AhWPmXyXPOmdK6Wh72 by NewNordicNormal@c.im
2024-05-03T18:02:36Z
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@john the Adventures in Cardboard people have a paper mache that doesn't mold in the damp. I think it's an Elmer's Glue product.