Post AhQL4FqGkcFUNe9bGq by DavidNorth@aus.social
(DIR) More posts by DavidNorth@aus.social
(DIR) Post #AhQAd3ZtF2yoz1svr6 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T17:44:42Z
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Libertarian Communists: When we say "give workers control of the means of production" what we mean is to "give workers control of the means of production".Authoritarian Communists: When we say "give workers control of the means of production" what we mean is "give the state control of the means of production".That's the difference.
(DIR) Post #AhQBtMmrgp7B9CILce by peterg75@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T17:58:50Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Can you explain, in practical terms, what does it mean to "give workers control of the means of production"? How would it work in practice?
(DIR) Post #AhQCe65Tb4LgxqHcKu by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T18:07:16Z
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@peterg75 By "giving workers control over the means of production" what I mean is that instead of one person or a small group of people controlling and owning the means of production the entirety of the workers would have collective ownership of those means and have equal say in the managing of them.
(DIR) Post #AhQEFnuvhX9HZKtUAq by Benhm3@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T18:25:18Z
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@Radical_EgoCom “The state” is the aggregation of citizens’ will. Fully-involved citizens implies that the citizens’ control of the means of production will therefore be controlled by the state.I’d prefer we don’t give corporations personhood or citizenship, just to be clear.
(DIR) Post #AhQEVd2HvQvaSEsiLA by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T18:28:09Z
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@Benhm3 There doesn't have to be a state or any hierarchical Institution. If the people are going to be fully involved as it is then they should control the means of production and manage Society on a completely decentralized and non-hierarchical basis instead of introducing a state that could easily be used against them.
(DIR) Post #AhQFIG04MPc5CS20y8 by peterg75@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T18:36:58Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I understand that, but can you give a practical example of how that would work in practice? Let's say we have a mid-size manufacturing firm. How does it operate in this scenario, how does it procure raw materials, how does it provide for the living expenses of its workers, how does it distribute the products produced there, etc?
(DIR) Post #AhQFvT6VZgDn8Ojz0q by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T18:44:03Z
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@peterg75 I cannot explain everything in every small minute detail because doing so will require me to have knowledge that I currently don't have, but the best I can explain this is that any kind of decisions regarding the workplace as a whole would be made, through some form of direct democracy, by all of the workers collectively.
(DIR) Post #AhQGm5E55AVCQVN5hA by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T18:53:33Z
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@pinkdrunkenelephants @peterg75 That's an extremely lazy way to go about it that will leave the doors open for the workers suffering from exploitation and mistreatment from the state and even the Representatives themselves.
(DIR) Post #AhQHF9lNIDqotao7lo by peterg75@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T18:58:49Z
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@Radical_EgoCom that's it though isn't it? When the rubber hits the road, the lofty ideas fall apart. You cannot operate a business by asking everyone about every decision every time. You have to designate point people for every area of the business with some autonomy and authority to make decisions. However you call them: managers, representatives, doesn't matter. But you will always end up with some sort of functional hierarchy.
(DIR) Post #AhQHZ15pEoeFnUqL3I by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T19:02:13Z
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@peterg75 Representatives and managers can exist outside of a hierarchical setting. A manager can manage things about having complete control over the workers, and representatives can be removed from their position at any time if such a system were in place.
(DIR) Post #AhQL4FqGkcFUNe9bGq by DavidNorth@aus.social
2024-04-30T19:41:37Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @pinkdrunkenelephants @peterg75 delegating responsibility for particular activities is always going to happen. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be meaningfully informed about every decision. I think that's the problem I have with the idea of anarchist socialism (or communism, if you prefer). What is important, I think, is that no single decision maker should have absolute control over any particular decisions, or that no single decision maker should be able to be in a position where they can act without popular approval. Society should have as flat a structure as possible, but I think we got into this current paradigm due to the fact that most people are not that interested in decision making, they just don't want to be on the receiving end when it goes wrong.To that end, I think the State is a useful institution, but it needs to be controllable by the people
(DIR) Post #AhQLXSprWKzJ4otLZA by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T19:46:56Z
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@DavidNorth @pinkdrunkenelephants @peterg75 I'm not against the concept of delegating in certain circumstances. I think that some kind of Representative system could exist within a Libertarian Communist society as long as those Representatives could be removed at any moment for any reason by the people. A state or any hierarchy is not necessary or needed for this to be necessary, only proper solidarity and open communication amongst the population is necessary.
(DIR) Post #AhQM2qv81VTmkgK1wm by peterg75@mastodon.social
2024-04-30T19:52:37Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @DavidNorth @pinkdrunkenelephants if you have a representative system, then you must have a set of rules around how the representatives are appointed, their charter or mandate, rules about removal. Once you start having rules, you need someone to make sure those rules are followed, like a judiciary system of some sort. If you have a judiciary, you'll need some oversight over them too.It's a slippery slope toward creating a state and government.
(DIR) Post #AhQUD2kHiCd3xKcWEi by rob200@hear-me.social
2024-04-30T21:24:05Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @peterg75 How is it determined if a manager is removed, is one complainer enough, do they have to prove anything they claim?