Post AdGwqQsN5poGRLGNLU by ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu
(DIR) More posts by ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu
(DIR) Post #AdFmBHdNM8LvCj1rH6 by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-12-28T00:23:11Z
4 likes, 3 repeats
Forget rewriting the kernel in Rust, let's go backwards and rewrite it in assembly
(DIR) Post #AdFoEemzvDJBnPGY9Q by didek@101010.pl
2023-12-28T02:18:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux Also let's get rid of the standard CPU architectures. A driver must be written exclusively for the particular machine!
(DIR) Post #AdFwI9LpY7ob5Fjdse by hiyatolol@mastodon.social
2023-12-28T02:09:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux why
(DIR) Post #AdFwX2lcJLs90Vtlia by immaculatetaste@convo.casa
2023-12-28T02:19:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux good plan /s
(DIR) Post #AdFwehMBnUlkvCefWy by tokudan@chaos.social
2023-12-28T02:23:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux best answer is probably: "You failed the turing test."
(DIR) Post #AdFwmwpy7rDXFXWAOO by jajades@mastodon.social
2023-12-28T02:26:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux chill bro
(DIR) Post #AdFww8bpj8auMlHvUm by SrEstegosaurio@mstdn.social
2023-12-28T02:33:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux I'm struggling to follow it's argument of why should the kernel be rewritten in the first place.It goes something like:Bloated -> Assembly -> Profit?
(DIR) Post #AdFx4z3mbGYzM8Zz8q by nicemicro@fosstodon.org
2023-12-28T02:34:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux why do programmers use tools that force them to do sane code and help them not do very stupid things?I thought the Linux kernel developers are literal gods who never make mistakes.
(DIR) Post #AdFxM74C5Juj6wwJE0 by chfour@wetdry.world
2023-12-28T03:02:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux What is stopping you?no bro what's stopping YOU if it's so easy
(DIR) Post #AdFxVEQk4mfCYUpnJQ by nerdeiro@fosstodon.org
2023-12-28T03:17:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux Just because it's in Assembly, it doesn't mean it can't be bloated. As someone who used to program an MSX in Z80 Assembly back in the day, I can most definitely say that ASM programs can be as bloated as anything else.
(DIR) Post #AdFxeVjP7YFKoszJjM by foint@masto.es
2023-12-28T03:28:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux this guy is just a dumbass that have never ever programed something in C, assembly or rust just ignore him
(DIR) Post #AdG8GUYyuYaHk6rWka by Jolliever@mastodon.social
2023-12-28T04:17:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux YouTube commenter: we should make this major change that would take years to implement. Brodie: it’s open source, you can do that if you have the skill and commitment. YTC: how dare you
(DIR) Post #AdG8SpEBuFVHJA1E3M by min1123@allthingstech.social
2023-12-28T04:28:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux Importantly assembly is architecture specific, and Linux supports many ISAs. Seperately, portions of the kernel, including the basic start from the bootloader, and places where an assembly optimization will make a difference on a platform are coded in assembly.
(DIR) Post #AdG8ak6MqhzNj58PWi by spikederailed@mastodon.social
2023-12-28T04:40:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux Ah yes, let's rewrite the entire kernel in assembly. We just have to all decide on which architecture we are all going to use going forward. I vote MIPS R4000!!!
(DIR) Post #AdGJDGYjcVxmwAPZ5c by thatmoooocow@mastodon.social
2023-12-28T07:17:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinuxYes, rewrite everything in ASM and every time new architecture pops up, just rewrite the kernel
(DIR) Post #AdGJNV10jBIEfSW6BU by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-12-28T07:45:50Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@SrEstegosaurio Make it more bloated by writing it in assembly instead of letting the compiler generate it
(DIR) Post #AdGJZ5i4deMXewBczQ by BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online
2023-12-28T07:46:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nerdeiro Arguably it would be more bloated as you'd need to manually support each architecture
(DIR) Post #AdGKCqxCv67zThE1J2 by Maholmire@crlf.ninja
2023-12-28T08:16:30.446438Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Linux get re-written as a microkernel, converting everything else into kernel modules that can be installed, configured and dynamically loaded as required. That would reduce a lot of the existing bloat in Linux, though can be achieved just as easily configuring every available flag before compile time. @BrodieOnLinux @SrEstegosaurio @nerdeiro @pwm @dcc @p @dushman @mima
(DIR) Post #AdGMfNbDL4iek4fUUC by dushman@den.raccoon.quest
2023-12-28T08:44:01.676Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Maholmire@crlf.ninja @BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online @SrEstegosaurio@mstdn.social @nerdeiro@fosstodon.org @pwm@crlf.ninja @dcc@annihilation.social @p@freespeechextremist.com @mima@makai.chaotic.ninja Microkernels do not make sense for modern uses. Hybrid or monolithic are more viable approaches.
(DIR) Post #AdGMi65Uu2lXIe830q by Maholmire@crlf.ninja
2023-12-28T08:44:34.701522Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Care to elaborate?@dushman @pwm @dcc @BrodieOnLinux @p @mima @SrEstegosaurio @nerdeiro
(DIR) Post #AdGMwdLy1EIYWdlQH2 by dushman@den.raccoon.quest
2023-12-28T08:47:11.478Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@Maholmire@crlf.ninja @pwm@crlf.ninja @dcc@annihilation.social @BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online @p@freespeechextremist.com @mima@makai.chaotic.ninja @SrEstegosaurio@mstdn.social @nerdeiro@fosstodon.org Linus talked about this way back in the day. Give this a read. https://yarchive.net/comp/microkernels.html
(DIR) Post #AdGWQrxBCPtu59f6a8 by cralder@mastodon.nu
2023-12-28T09:38:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux I guarantee this person has never written a single line of assembly
(DIR) Post #AdGdV6IYVUwDPQcp2e by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T11:52:43.216224Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@Maholmire @BrodieOnLinux @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm > seeing Linux get re-written as a microkernel,You can already just download and run a POSIX-compliant microkernel OS: https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/There's also https://www.minix3.org/ .There's no need to try to turn Linux into something it isn't. There are lots of OSs, it's possible to use ones that aren't called "Linux".> achieved just as easily configuring every available flag before compile time.It takes longer now to go through `make oldconfig` than it used to take to compile the kernel. At some point, it starts to make more sense to split up concerns. It's pretty amazing that the same kernel does all right on a phone and on a supercomputer, but maybe it's stretched a little thin: we still have drivers for sound cards that haven't been sold since the 90s, when sound cards were an extra peripheral that you crammed into an ISA port and had to pick an IRQ for and there was a 15-pin D-sub connector for MIDI devices but most people just used them for the GRAVIS GAME PAD WHICH THE ULTIMATE DEVICE FOR PEOPLE THAT WANT ALMOST ENOUGH BUTTONS TO EMULATE THE SNES.see_the_joystick_unscrewed_it_was_a_mess.gifthese_controllers_sucked.jpg
(DIR) Post #AdGdqJ4sBmLL7nKxma by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T11:56:31.515962Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio I just bought an ISA sound card and am delighted it still will work in Linux lol
(DIR) Post #AdGfalGNpMpjoeR6FU by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T12:16:09.200459Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@dushman @pwm @dcc @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @mima @SrEstegosaurio @nerdeiro > Microkernels do not make sense for modern uses.I don't know what "modern use" means (ahem), but microkernels don't seem to have taken off. They don't seem to have paid off.
(DIR) Post #AdGfnvmA3N6cBVa04O by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T12:18:28.274606Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio they are in the category of good things that are too hard for average programmers
(DIR) Post #AdGhJJhPFzcRJRsxVo by dushman@den.raccoon.quest
2023-12-28T12:35:23.208Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@p@freespeechextremist.com @pwm@crlf.ninja @dcc@annihilation.social @BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online @Maholmire@crlf.ninja @mima@makai.chaotic.ninja @SrEstegosaurio@mstdn.social @nerdeiro@fosstodon.org Yeah as in they are too much hassle to develop and the benefits are not really worth it
(DIR) Post #AdGhVNNlOAM4D8Rpk8 by dushman@den.raccoon.quest
2023-12-28T12:37:34.325Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@p@freespeechextremist.com @pwm@crlf.ninja @dcc@annihilation.social @BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online @Maholmire@crlf.ninja @mima@makai.chaotic.ninja @SrEstegosaurio@mstdn.social @nerdeiro@fosstodon.org Since developing a kernel for modern hardware is already a huge chore
(DIR) Post #AdGoN13hCemML01RJY by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T13:54:30.859651Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm It is nice to have the drivers but I think making a more standard way to build modules out-of-tree and then shoving a lot of stuff out of the tree would be a good plan.I have a giant "kernel firmware" package on my LiveSlak image. It is 500MB, a little more than a quarter the size of the entire image. I am certain that I will not ever use more than 50MB of those, but because it is one big blob, I don't know. List the sound/wifi/ethernet/graphics chips in all the laptops in the house.So it's nice that your ISA sound card works without you having to locate a driver for it, right, unironically: that is very cool. On the other hand, I typed `git pull` in the kernel directory yesterday or the day before, and it took about 30 minutes.
(DIR) Post #AdGoWfjBMjHl4q210C by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T13:56:13.866989Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio I would have no problem with having to install the card support as a module
(DIR) Post #AdGqCtSGonMflfoknA by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T14:15:05.683021Z
4 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm > they are in the category of good things that are too hard for average programmersAverage programmers like Chuck Moore, Ken Thompson, Linus Torvalds, Arthur Whitney. I mean, I worked with Thomas Bushnell and he's brilliant and he does not seem to have completed his work of shipping a kernel for GNU/HURD. The smartest programmer that ever lived, St. Terry, did not do a microkernel, and he delivered a working .iso file. I guess all of those guys are average. Where are the programmers that are smart enough to build these microkernel systems?This is the trap: "This system is conceptually nice when examined from a certain angle, and if you don't agree, it's because you're not smart/talented/knowledgeable enough." You say something is total shit and someone comes along and says it's just that you are a caveman and unable to appreciate it, and sometimes you are a caveman but sometimes it's total shit and you're not a caveman, the other guy is a defensive eunuch, masturbating without producing anything. Brian Kernighan, when asked about Standard ML, said he didn't mean to disparage his colleagues' work, but that ML seems to have been used almost exclusively for building ML compilers, and this is the feeling I get from a lot of these systems.02_night_night_produced_by_nosajthing_featuring_kevin_hart_1.mp3
(DIR) Post #AdGqrIh6Omejd51TBw by leyonhjelm@breastmilk.club
2023-12-28T14:22:23.527689Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@p Average programmers do the needful these days@dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio @Moon
(DIR) Post #AdGqy3kSMjIlIooZ5k by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T14:23:37.151681Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@dushman @pwm @dcc @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @mima @SrEstegosaurio @nerdeiro > modern hardwareI agree with you on microkernels; my objection was that this use of "modern" is the worst hand-wave that coders do nowadays. Almost invariably, it doesn't mean "systems in current use" but "systems that I both like and I am familiar with". A microcontroller is "modern hardware" and nothing that anyone asserts about "modern hardware" applies to it. Half the time, the hardware in a server doesn't fit what people mean when they say "modern hardware"."Modern" means nothing in current use: it's worse than meaningless, in fact, because it is subjectivity disguised as objective pragmatism. It's spouted by the CADTs that movefastbreakthings in order to dismiss things they don't want to consider.
(DIR) Post #AdGrBtUrHGdJYu7Dto by leniwcowaty@fosstodon.org
2023-12-28T14:22:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux better idea - let's write kernel on stone tablets in ancient Babylonian alphabeth!
(DIR) Post #AdGsU4ttiVLM653uZk by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T14:40:33.138645Z
5 likes, 0 repeats
@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio Two things going on.Very smart people work on monolithic kernels. Have you read the book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"? Incredibly smart people are still trapped in thinking paradigms. Torvalds is smart and very capable but self-interested and kind of arrogant.It's hard to make a good microkernel. People can belt out working, high performing monolithic kernels in a lot less time. The relative ease of other architectures sucks the air out of the room for innovation and advancing the state of the art. I liked the idea of microkernels but didn't think it was worth it until I saw Genode running on top of SEL4. Linux is working really good these days so people still don't see the need.I don't think monolithic kernels completely kill innovation, there is orthogonal innovation happening that monolithic kernels can take advantage of. (real) capability architecture, or using languages that prioritize safety while not being slower. A lot of growth can happen in Linux without throwing everything away for a microkernel, so I'm not down them. But I think microkernels are the next paradigm.I think more people brainlessly shit on microkernels because of stuff Torvalds said than people brainlessly repeat that microkernels are superior and we should throw away all our working shit, but I could be wrong.
(DIR) Post #AdGtVsC422rnDiylU0 by Hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net
2023-12-28T14:52:07.550015Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Aren't they supposed to be more secure?
(DIR) Post #AdGwqQsN5poGRLGNLU by ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu
2023-12-28T15:29:25.537429Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @p @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio kuhn book is not really. plenty of people at any time giving serious thought to diverse, and "paradigm shift" is illusion. still favourite revealing this is goldsmith and laks. "institutional legitimacy backing" is a thing, though, and worse now than it used to be since academia got business-ified. involving money and "investors" and such is what constrains people to being unimaginative and short-sightedfor microkernels though, was told before issue is of message passing performance? does something happen that?guess you could hybrid approach maybe though but. like ocaml. ml is being used for "serious industry" now, and much is thanks to it has practical outs for imperative when that's more efficient
(DIR) Post #AdGx4IhoGcMH9cw5HU by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T15:31:52.325867Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ageha @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @p @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio yeah message passing is a ton faster now but it did take a lot of work to get there. naive microkernels are not great.I put a lot of stock in paradigm, things aren't popular until the people making a living on them die off or it gets legitimacy from prominent unexpected support and then the floodgate magically opens
(DIR) Post #AdGyVgqciOMrnpgNRQ by ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu
2023-12-28T15:48:04.936705Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @p @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio if you could call anything "paradigm shift" it would be something like dumping "classical" and back to constructivism in maths. but instead constructive methods have been getting steady work in parallel since the 60s (actually never really stopped. just took a few decades to reclaim ground from "foundations" into "practical" again)and this pattern holds whatever "revolution" you look at "cognitive vs. behaviourism" etc. even physics, einstein didn't kill modified newtonian dynamics, and copenhagen never had the totalising power it claimed (or even internal consistency among its supporters). what actually happens in practice is that kids like chomsky "come up with" an idea that people in his field have been talking about for 100 and some years, paint "adversaries" together as all believing something they don't, and declare themselves to have enacted a revolution (for the camera, through which the general public is misinformed
(DIR) Post #AdGydzq3zUvL1ENhZI by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T15:49:35.221805Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ageha @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @p @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio I don't like Chomsky so I believe this.
(DIR) Post #AdGzcqEGKlXMsaiHyK by ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu
2023-12-28T16:00:35.128563Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @p @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio on an individual level people definitely are difficult to budge and the "changes one-death-at-a-time" is kinda true. and if you average over everyone can usually get to a "consensus view" sort of deal too. there's always pretty strong diversity of opinion, though. like a team of people working on alternative storage mechanisms for memory (like those experiments with rna) even while textbooks are saying neural-architecture-only-obviously. and then what any one researcher thinks will generally differ from "the consensus" somewhere or will have entertained and worked on some alternativesreally the hegemonising comes from outside forces (like money or censorship
(DIR) Post #AdGzv9ar4n0S9L0rGS by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T16:03:52.543015Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ageha @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @p @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio kernels are commercial even linux basically is so yeah there is a lot of pressure. microkernels are derided as academic. there's good commercial ones out there but they are ignored, or the microkernel aspect is not played up (thinking of QNX. there are some people on here that know QNX well.)
(DIR) Post #AdH0DXwZHVk6snwINc by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T16:07:11.332710Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ageha no just saw benchmarks a long time ago.
(DIR) Post #AdH0uudklvRvj8ojse by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T16:15:06.030894Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm > Have you read the book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"?No, but I imagine I should take this as a recommendation. I wouldn't necessarily treat software as the same, though: you can replace all of your software much more quickly than you can anything that requires physical hardware or retraining, and software doesn't depend on academia to move.> Incredibly smart people are still trapped in thinking paradigms. I'm not convinced that this is what's going on. There was no shortage of people interested in microkernels. There's been industry interest: Apple took Mach, but they hacked half the micro out of it. The hypothetical trap that has kept people stuck on monolithic kernels isn't real: anyone knows how message-passing works, they don't suddenly stop understanding this concept when you try to make the ethernet driver run in userspace.What's actually changed is the nature of the machines themselves. For any real computing when microkernels were designed, computers:users were still N:1. Real computing moved and it was 1:1 when real microkernels arrived. We've now got 1:N. Heterogenous computing was a challenge back then and the network wasn't the computer: heterogenous computing is now the norm and the network is the computer to the extent that most people cannot work using a machine that has no browser because access to remote resources matters more than what is going on in the kernel in your system.The trap is thinking of computers as monoliths. The network isn't just the computer, there is no more computer without a network. Joe Armstrong was brilliant, so Erlang had the right model. Plan 9 had the right model. Tony Hoare was right but Andy Tanenbaum was inconsequential. Why has HTTP eaten the world? Simple, universally accessible protocol for message-passing and resource-sharing across a network. A microkernel, by contrast, is separated but still tightly coupled.So, like with everything that reeks of wonkery, I'll believe it when I see it. NetBSD's rump kernel looks like a more promising architecture. Microkernels look to me a lot like VLIW, with its "well, nobody's caught up yet, it'll be faster than everything as soon as the compiler writers stop fucking it up it will really be way faster, in principle it should emulate x86 code faster than x86 CPUs run x86 code". Microkernels look like the "Automated proofs will make software reliable" fad that thankfully died. I will believe it when I see it.> Torvalds is smart and very capable but self-interested and kind of arrogant.I won't argue with this, but his "Why do you glorify doing something new and stupid, when doing good things well is what people *really* should be admiring" rant. I don't think he's trapped, I think he's taking a realistic approach.> People can belt out working, high performing monolithic kernels in a lot less time.It seems like it's much easier to produce a demo-quality microkernel and then publish your thesis and proceed to spend your career on Linux.If we have learned exactly one thing since the 1980s, it should be "worse is better".If it's easier to get a high-performance kernel with one architecture than it is with another, on what grounds is the other preferable? You can pick a kernel up and put it down and any given network will have a half-dozen different kernels on it. So if it's easy to churn out a kernel to do this and a kernel to do that and machines are 1:N and half the time these systems are single-taskers slotted into a broader system, what the hell does a microkernel buy you? The structure of the system you use has moved up one level: your system no longer lives on one computer, and a cleaner kernel--even if we pretend a microkernel is cleaner--doesn't buy you much.Like the capability-based security systems. These mattered when you had a mixed-use system: you don't have that. You have desktop machines that have to do everything, then tiny VMs (whatever was cheapest on Low-End Talk when the deployer was buying) that have to do everything, and then everything past that is task-per-machine.> The relative ease of other architectures sucks the air out of the room for innovationThe network is the computer. Which matters more to you in practical terms: how the kernel works on a given machine, or how the EVM works?Good code is I/O-bound. For a deployment environment > Linux is working really good these days so people still don't see the need.Because the network is the computer and it's all hypervisors managing VMs anyway, the cost of changing OS has never been lower. It's near-zero friction. I port some dumb webshit I run locally to Plan 9, right, and it turns out extremely boring. I hate Debian and I am still using Debian all over the place because it doesn't matter.> But I think microkernels are the next paradigm.20 years from now, if we still have electricity and are not all running CollapseOS, I feel fairly confident that it'll be monoliths, unikernels, unikernels under hypervisors, and maybe we get hybrid/exo/etc.> I think more people brainlessly shit on microkernels because of stuff Torvalds said than people brainlessly repeat that microkernels are superiorSure, accurate, but I think people brainlessly shitting are not worth addressing.I do think that "It's just that the hackers that created things that defined the current paradigm were just not very good and thus didn't favor my pet technology" is a bad approach: there are some thought-stopping cliches for code, and they are almost all completely wrong, perniciously wrong.Here is one of my favorite examples: the "Well, Lisp would be faster than C but all of these CPUs are built around C programming" idea. And here's how that plays out: http://yosefk.com/blog/the-high-level-cpu-challenge.html , http://yosefk.com/blog/high-level-cpu-follow-up.html .There is also a special place in hell for people that manage to convince coders to chase their tails down a rabbit hole full of twisty passages, all of which look like yaks, because they like an idea that has never worked and they paper over their defensiveness by affecting condescending smugness. "Real microkernels haven't been tried yet! You're just not smart enough." Tony Hoare is presumed absolutely correct until conclusively proven otherwise; as noted above, he's right about CSP, and here he's right about "so simple there are obviously no deficiencies" being superior to "so complex that there are no obvious deficiencies".Pistol Mcfly - Google Me - 05 Otis.mp3
(DIR) Post #AdH1XLnkEgNWyCornU by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T16:22:02.845117Z
5 likes, 1 repeats
@Hyolobrika @dushman @Maholmire @pwm @dcc @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio @nerdeiro > Aren't they supposed to be more secure?Everything makes that claim, and likely will make that claim while security is an unsolved issue (i.e., forever).A computer that is unplugged has the best security, but is not useful. A computer with zero security never gets in your way. There is a point you have to pick in the trade-off, between "useful enough to accomplish what you want to accomplish" and "secure enough to prevent security problems from interfering with the things you want to accomplish".Note that the trade-off is not linear: it's possible to have a system that is marginally more secure but only half as useful.
(DIR) Post #AdH21n3FU90EAjaORc by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T16:27:32.921030Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ageha @Moon @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm > like ocaml.I think OCaml is the only nice ML I have ever used.
(DIR) Post #AdH2QLBiDa7OzjFdwW by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T16:31:59.128288Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ageha @Moon @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm > on an individual level people definitely are difficult to budge and the "changes one-death-at-a-time" is kinda true.In the case of software, you don't have to get institutional support or anyone's approval or fund manufacturing or funding for anything. You can just make it. So I don't believe this sort of thing has as much of an effect in this field.
(DIR) Post #AdH2ddHuEagAtYUDzs by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T16:34:18.775670Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio @Hyolobrika microkernel only has to conceptually be separated into components and communicate with message passing but it's possible to do this without enforcing the boundaries. I believe QNX is like this, you can bypass message passing but don't do that! Your software won't crash because you followed the rules. Until you fail to validate untrusted input. But in practice you want to enforce the boundaries. That has security benefits but mainly it's about reliability. component crashes. it's a mini-server with defined input and output, no shared memory. you just restart it.
(DIR) Post #AdH36fkWA55uvXiUUq by skyflare@fosstodon.org
2023-12-28T16:30:09Z
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@BrodieOnLinux At least compiling everything from scratch (including bootstrapping the compiler) would be viable with this approach as opposed to having to compile the rust toolchain (maaaaybe gccrs will change that in the future but idk)
(DIR) Post #AdH3UhiaUcslz2GzLs by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T16:43:56.374242Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio regarding netbsd rump kernels and unikernels in general:https://research.nccgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/ncc_group-assessing_unikernel_security.pdfthis is an implementation detail but it appears that vendors are incompetent. tons of implementation and configuration flaws in commercial offerings, like really basic stuff.
(DIR) Post #AdH3rgc8lPR3DhDSds by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T16:48:07.941201Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @BrodieOnLinux @Hyolobrika @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm> microkernel only has to conceptually be separated into components and communicate with message passing but it's possible to do this without enforcing the boundaries.Well, sure, but if we mean "not enforced, just message-passing style instead of shared memory", then half the kernels classified as monoliths might count as microkernels. That was one of Armstrong's interesting observations: sometimes message-passing can be much faster than sharing memory if passing a message lets you avoid locking, and his system has all of these immutable data structures so you don't even have to copy or copy-on-write, you just pass a pointer.> it's a mini-server with defined input and output, no shared memory. you just restart it. This is how Erlang is intended to work as well. I think this is how good systems tend to work.
(DIR) Post #AdH4GjsTlcGoa5nwDg by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-12-28T16:52:29.898584Z
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@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio @Hyolobrika at some point everywhere started saying "hybrid kernel" and I think this is the reason why. you're only a microkernel as you approach 100% of the kernel doing it (100% is obviously impossible.) Linux is pragmatic and I agree that microkernel concept is dogmatic.
(DIR) Post #AdH5C9OnYHomExIVCy by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T17:03:02.153447Z
5 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm > this is an implementation detailIt looks like this paper went for the obvious approach, but when I said I expect a lot of unikernels, I meant like a Forth system is a unikernel. I mean compute-dust. GreenArrays 144-core chips look like the start of a near-inevitability. (Feel free to believe it when you see it.)In more practical terms that apply today, unikernels where the application code is written in a bytecode VM have a different security model than "just write it in C and link that code in". You can do compile-time guarantees that prevent you even requiring an MMU. So you tack a blob on. You can do this kind of thing with BEAM or Inferno right now (compile some Limbo code, include only as much as needed to run that code in the builtin filesystem, boot that kernel), and I imagine people have built similar systems around more conventional kernels.> but it appears that vendors are incompetent.Many such cases. Sad!Radical_Dreamers_ReveD'Ordinateur_OC_ReMix.mp3
(DIR) Post #AdH81D6fj6ZkPsIHrs by moth@stereophonic.space
2023-12-28T17:34:38.026481Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@p @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio > microkernels don't seem to have taken off.Perhaps not commercially, but minix specifically got some government interest.
(DIR) Post #AdH83HCRTnFLgpyhdI by sysrq@lab.nyanide.com
2023-12-28T17:35:00.442533Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@moth @dcc @Maholmire @pwm @dushman @nerdeiro @p @BrodieOnLinux @mima @SrEstegosaurio :alexjonesdemons:
(DIR) Post #AdHAhdihMvlh1jRLdY by p@freespeechextremist.com
2023-12-28T18:04:45.121386Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@moth @BrodieOnLinux @Maholmire @SrEstegosaurio @dcc @dushman @mima @nerdeiro @pwm :brandt:No telling how many alterations were made, though. Andy says Intel kept emailing him about how things worked.
(DIR) Post #AdIJbMtY6WyXqxYlOK by Switches@social.vivaldi.net
2023-12-29T07:18:24Z
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@BrodieOnLinux tbh with you that comment to me seems a more "I don't really know what rewriting it in assembly would require" than anything else...
(DIR) Post #AdMgWy8tnaSxdYgc2y by moffintosh@mastodon.cloud
2023-12-31T09:54:55Z
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@BrodieOnLinux This goes straight to my collection of retarded takes. Thanks❤️
(DIR) Post #AdNKx5AOIo8t7LOHsu by Kencf618033@social.linux.pizza
2023-12-31T15:58:02Z
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@BrodieOnLinux @nerdeiro On the gripping hand, basically the Motie design philosophy.
(DIR) Post #AdNLL3iTLWMLZMlUJc by Kencf618033@social.linux.pizza
2023-12-31T16:00:03Z
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@BrodieOnLinux There is no alternate timeline in which this has been done.