Post AcibS4eKVbPLgSNcrA by dale_price@mastodon.online
(DIR) More posts by dale_price@mastodon.online
(DIR) Post #AciCwTU8EnLWXk0e8m by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T21:13:59Z
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Why are so many American pedestrians being killed by car-drivers at night?Fascinating piece in the New York Times (free link here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/11/upshot/nighttime-deaths.html?unlocked_article_code=1.FE0.uEMf.FuV3jZhYzZHu&hpgrp=k-abar&smid=url-share) on this questionAfter years of decline, the number of pedestrians killed by drivers began to rise in 2008No-one's quite sure whyEmbiggified vehicles don't seem to be the cause ..Thouhg distracted driving does seem to be part of itAlso: more people living alongside massive highway-eseque suburban roadsSuper multi-factorial
(DIR) Post #AciDrnDhXHvaFxehwu by TomSwirly@toot.community
2023-12-11T21:22:56Z
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@clive I wonder if it's moving away from incandescent lights... somehow? That's the big change I remember from around that time but I can't see how the connection would work.OK, suppose people, pedestrians or drivers, lose their night vision due to these new crop of blinding white lights and make mistakes...?
(DIR) Post #AciE0dHXr2cA2ZfW1Q by brianstorms@mastodon.social
2023-12-11T21:25:20Z
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@clive Based on what I see in New Mexico (setting aside the nightmarish driving of so many vehicle drivers) I often can’t help but assume pedestrians are deliberately walking out into traffic situations, esp on busy multi-lane streets. Jaywalking, just crossing the street wherever they please, ignoring flashing Do Not Walk signs, taking their time, not looking both ways. Kinda makes one wonder if they do it because they *wanna* get hit.
(DIR) Post #AciE7gHf5lMjNU5HNI by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T21:26:22Z
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@TomSwirly Aha, that's a super interesting line of inquiry!I didn't see that addressed in the piece -- I wonder if they explored it and found it didn't have any measurable effect, or never explored it?
(DIR) Post #AciEFpDXlF8LOx2cZE by bradpatrick@esq.social
2023-12-11T21:27:36Z
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@clive I would imagine smartphones and distracted driving are the biggest contributor.
(DIR) Post #AciEVyasfRZt7CetPs by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T21:31:13Z
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@bradpatrick One of the most interesting analyses in that piece was the interplay between mobile phones and transmissions ...Experts suspect that the near-dominance of automatic transmissions may explain why rates of pedestrians-killed-by-nighttime-drivers has risen in the US but not in Europe or the UK ...... because across the Atlantic, most cars are still stick-shiftWhich means drivers there *can't* as easily use their phones while driving
(DIR) Post #AciErdazQ2eUMS2RXc by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-12-11T21:34:46Z
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@clive Puzzling and trying to get my own programs to update to look at NYC specific diurnal cycle in pedestrian injuries…I wonder if the interior of vehicles themselves are brighter now. I only drive when on travel (and its unavoidable), but I always notice that the insides of rental cars are lit up like Xmas trees, ruining my vision outside of the vehicles. But that contrast of brightness often needs to be adjusted to the brightness of outside.
(DIR) Post #AciFcaBRvEt5ODTeNc by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-12-11T21:43:57Z
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@clive @bradpatrick Just to devil's advocate here... it ALSO shows that rural USA is worse than downtown USA pedestrian deaths. You mostly have to use the clutch/shift when you are in stop and go mode (downtown), not so much while driving in rural areas.Doesn't seem totally consistent w that hypothesis.But maybe it is that the clutch slows you down anyhow bc tooling around a neighborhood in a high gear is a very visual reminder of HOW FAST you are going.
(DIR) Post #AciFuhRDgnll6KUbNA by John@socks.masto.host
2023-12-11T21:47:20Z
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@clive This older article was less bashful about naming alcohol as a major factor. They say it was a factor in 49% of all.I actually wonder if there's something weird and social about our lack of response to that, and how it seems minimized in so much commentary. Are there people are picking their preferred enemy, or not wanting to spoil the fun.https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/index.html
(DIR) Post #AciHQVbbJlq3ck5116 by phoca2004@mastodon.scot
2023-12-11T22:04:12Z
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@clive I found the article somewhat irksome in that it paints this kind of ‘we can’t pinpoint causes’ way when we do know many things that help - slowing speeds, engineering roads and shared spaces better, creating better pedestrian infrastructure. The USA has been an outlier in the developed world for not making these changes and for not have declining rates of injury and death on our streets. We can do better and we know how to do it. #Transport #StreetSafety #USA #VisionZero
(DIR) Post #AciJcz4XmpMuOfh6JM by Leisureguy@mstdn.ca
2023-12-11T22:28:48Z
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@clive Kevin Drum has an interesting post on the increase in pedestrian deaths:https://jabberwocking.com/are-pedestrians-at-fault-for-increasing-pedestrian-deaths/#pedestrians
(DIR) Post #AciNXn55LGcnZjj6Aq by ArtHarg@mastodon.nl
2023-12-11T22:36:06Z
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@TomSwirly @clive Not only those monstrous search lights masquerading as vehicle lighting, but if people really are interacting with smartphones more, then they are looking at a bright screen at close distance. So they lose both their night vision /and/ far focus. It takes a certain amount of time ere they can see what’s outside again. Couple that with automobile centric road design and you have a problem.
(DIR) Post #AciNXoAnHWmkxjPAi8 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:12:49Z
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@ArtHarg @TomSwirly Yeah, that makes sense too!
(DIR) Post #AciNkhDwQj3TAs1T2u by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:15:05Z
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@atthenius @bradpatrick Yeah, one is only using the clutch a lot in more densely-packed urban / suburban areas ...... but it may be that more driving happens in those environments in Europe, which generally has higher population densities than the US
(DIR) Post #AciNrZ2fFT9jpG1Tc0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:15:21Z
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@atthenius Yeah, I've noticed that too!
(DIR) Post #AciNyV2WWkXfRLGR5k by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:16:47Z
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@John Booze would make eminent sense as a risk factor!The only question would be, why would it begin to rise in 2008? It's possible the economic crisis would have had an impact on alcohol intake ... but it's unclear why it would have such a continuing one, eleven years later
(DIR) Post #AciO95tiLSsCeHCB4i by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:19:36Z
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@phoca2004 100% -- when I posted this on Threads, @danhon noted that he just got back from Japan, where the driving infrastructure is *much* more designed to protect pedestriansThat said, the crappiness and pedestrian-hostile nature of the US's infrastucture could not, I would imagine, explain why this trend would emerge in 2008 ...The infrastructure was pretty uniformly terrible before then also
(DIR) Post #AciOREQBOQhqIT1yjY by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:22:48Z
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@Leisureguy for some reason I'm getting a 404 on that pageWhat did he note?
(DIR) Post #AciOY7Z9HOat3vVfUW by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:23:26Z
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@heathr Possibly! That'd be consistent with a gradually upwards trend
(DIR) Post #AciOyBudk1z44XzeLY by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:28:48Z
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Another thing that really stood out to me in that piece asking "why did American drivers start killing more and more pedestrians at night since 2008" ...... was this data point:According to the reporters, after a driver hits a pedestrian, "police typically don’t ask people involved if they were using phones"If that's true, and I have no immediate reason to doubt the reporting, that is *nuts*Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/11/upshot/nighttime-deaths.html?unlocked_article_code=1.FE0.uEMf.FuV3jZhYzZHu&hpgrp=k-abar&smid=url-share
(DIR) Post #AciP77zPhEymVmUHhY by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:30:20Z
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(Obviously, the driver may not answer truthfully, but if the driver has killed a pedestrian, one would imagine the investigation ought to require the turning over of phone-activity logs for the time immediately preceding the death)
(DIR) Post #AciPFXB7vcuywyyUnA by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:30:37Z
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@heathr Yeah!
(DIR) Post #AciPgY3wkVQjVlUueG by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-12-11T23:36:46Z
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@clive Could it be that drivers at night are constantly blinded by the oncoming and rearview mirror headlights of gigantic vehicles with their light half a meter too high, pointed straight forward like highbeams rather than down at the road, and 20x brighter than they should be?
(DIR) Post #AciPoVfDYHAwO7j8gi by blogdiva@mastodon.social
2023-12-11T23:37:00Z
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@clive @heathr wasn't there a change of car lights about that time as well? car lights have changed quite a bit; especially where they are supposed to hit the row. like, last time i drove, i had to use the long lights most of the time because i couldn't see more than a few feet before me.
(DIR) Post #AciPvJKZntPSAJJc6S by crablab@chaos.social
2023-12-11T23:38:17Z
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@clive That's definitely a thing in the UK, AIUI.
(DIR) Post #AciQ2di0RBuTORljea by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:39:45Z
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@dalias I wondered about that too! When I first saw the headline my mind immediately skipped to "ever huger vehicles" as a likely causeThe folks the reporters spoke to didn't think that had much to do with it -- from their perspective, vehicles were already blooming high and big enough in the 00s that there wasn't any reason for 2008 to be a tipping point
(DIR) Post #AciQ9nHnECl77iv4RE by artemesia@techhub.social
2023-12-11T23:40:59Z
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@clive What's the point of asking? Anyone with an IQ above room temperature is going lie and say they weren't using their phone. It's only when the case becomes high profile (eg. SD AG Ravnsborg) that they subpoena the call/data records from the cell phone carrier.
(DIR) Post #AciQGjGaZRIIgVfBGC by roadskater@mastodon.social
2023-12-11T23:39:05Z
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@clive Given NYPD's tendency to pre-emptively blame the victim, I am less than surprised to read this.
(DIR) Post #AciQGjzxqjaexEtPzE by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:42:27Z
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@roadskater Alas, yeahAs Aaron Naparstak, a reporter for Streetsblog -- who writes a lot about people killed by drivers -- put it this way when quoted in a New Yorker piece (https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-local-correspondents/when-cars-kill-pedestrians):“Nobody ever looks at the car as a weapon,” Naparstek said. “The basic rule that I discovered over the years is if you ever want to murder someone in New York City, do it with a car.”
(DIR) Post #AciQPxN5UyMh2J6Rns by polarisera@spinster.xyz
2023-12-11T23:45:55.562548Z
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@clive Article mentions smart phones – FOR DRIVERS. But fails to mention that pedestrians are zombies on their phones. I watched an ambulance with its sirens on have to STOP as a zombie-tard on his phone walked blindly in its path.
(DIR) Post #AciQb5lOdZnOFVmbUO by vfrmedia@social.tchncs.de
2023-12-11T23:45:00Z
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@clive @atthenius @bradpatrick Just because many Europeans still drive stick doesn't immediately discourage them from using their phones at the wheel - what does is its a serious traffic violation in many countries that the cops actively look out for (in UK its a fine, 6 demerit points and young/new drivers can even get their licence revoked) *and* if anyone gets in a collision they will often get a court order for every piece of data from the phone and the car...
(DIR) Post #AciQb6nCoKpxRPdYwq by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-11T23:45:41Z
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@vfrmedia @atthenius @bradpatrick Aha, interesting! That all makes sense too
(DIR) Post #AciR1WbTTAix1MkK4e by John@socks.masto.host
2023-12-11T23:51:49Z
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@clive There are great many more statistics here. This one says that there have been increases in both drunk driving and speeding.I can't help think that letting friends walk home drunk, because "they're only walking," is a big silent killer here. In a worst case scenario, let's say it, somewhat hammered and wearing fashionable black clothing.https://www.valuepenguin.com/car-accident-statistics
(DIR) Post #AciRctj2SuUnRn6a2q by tweakmaista@mastodon.social
2023-12-11T23:58:33Z
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@clive Interesting article. What might be also special about the U.S. is their typical city street layout with long straight roads. Might causing distraction when the sun is rising or setting more easily.
(DIR) Post #AciS56G7SXaWQa1gI4 by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-12-12T00:03:38Z
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@clive But IS that a thing here in the USA? I would guess that most police don’t bother w cell phone logs.
(DIR) Post #AciTmbEAILZYsgPyrY by squibbles@beekeeping.ninja
2023-12-12T00:22:37Z
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@clive even if people are not actively holding their phones in their hands I wonder if the larger brighter displays inside of cars are helping to kill people's night vision in addition to the distraction of glancing down at the GPS or other alerts that might be popping up on the dash
(DIR) Post #AciUSVBr8DPaJrJoxM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-12-12T00:30:03Z
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@clive Could it be the new LED lights that are too damn bright?
(DIR) Post #AciVU8XuOS6MceydX6 by Leisureguy@mstdn.ca
2023-12-12T00:41:47Z
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@clive Link works for me, FWIW. some quotes:This prompts an obvious alternative explanation: The increase in fatalities has something to do with pedestrian behavior. If it were driver behavior, after all, every age group would be increasing. And guess who uses smartphones the most? Ages 18-64. Children largely don't have phones and old people don't use them much. So maybe the big change is pedestrians staring at their phones and walking unsafely?1/
(DIR) Post #AciVaZwVRhr9KUYPlg by Leisureguy@mstdn.ca
2023-12-12T00:42:07Z
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@clive Continuing:Granted, this is just a guess on my part. And there's another factor here that the Times doesn't mention: Only fatal crashes have gone up. The total number of pedestrian crashes has been rock steady the entire time.So: the problem is only fatal crashes at night among ages 18-64 in the US. That is indeed very peculiar. And it's at least worth a look to see if this suggests something going on among pedestrians, not just drivers./end
(DIR) Post #AciX677gETSVARNimu by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T00:59:48Z
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@nguarracino Yep -- a lot of folks in this thread are pinpointing the brilliance of today's headlights
(DIR) Post #AciXcFRkov7yFY5sdU by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:03:25Z
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@Leisureguy Aha, that's a really good pointPedestrians staring at their phones and not looking at the road!
(DIR) Post #AciXd7Ab4vUOryTwOG by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:04:27Z
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@futurebird Yep yep -- a bunch of folks have been wondering about the increasing brilliance of headlights, and also the shift to LED streelights, which in early generations weren't tuned very well
(DIR) Post #AciXjKcvxTusLLhVVg by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:05:18Z
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@jgordon @heathr yeahMy vision at 55 is pretty terrible -- I needed glasses in grade 4, and it's been downhill sinceI do not like driving at night *at all*
(DIR) Post #AciXpD82kX5EpF3UXI by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:05:58Z
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@squibbles Yep, quite a few folks have been pointing to brighter interior lights also -- it's a good hypothesis
(DIR) Post #AciXv13uWfgR8ftH4i by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:06:33Z
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@atthenius Yeah -- it clearly isn't, according to this piece!I was speaking of what *should* happen, not what does happen, alas
(DIR) Post #AciY47JgdpQD8vbpy4 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:07:02Z
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@tweakmaista Yep yepIt may also encourage, and allow for, greater speeds
(DIR) Post #AciYAU1b7qedJDBT72 by dale_price@mastodon.online
2023-12-12T01:08:33Z
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@clive Anecdotally, I’ve noticed (in TX) that pedestrians rarely wait for the walk signal or even look before they cross anymore. Doesn’t matter if they have their phone out or not, they just amble into fast moving traffic, completely unaware.During the day, drivers can see them on the sidewalks and anticipate when they’ll cross, but at night you often can’t see them until they’re in the road. More *focused* streetlights and headlights make this worse because less light reaches the sidewalk.
(DIR) Post #AciYFx7gMnwv0FdcA4 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:09:37Z
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@John Yep -- not a good combination!Though it's not clear why that trend would emerge in 2008, and then go upwardsIt may work alongside the point about the increase in working-poor populations in the suburbs -- more people living along huge arterial roads where cars really whip along, and where those lower-income folks are less likely to own cars and are thus more likely to be walking ... along roads that didn't use to have pedestriansAdd booze, and: wham
(DIR) Post #AciYNXy3mF71Inl53Q by aburka@hachyderm.io
2023-12-11T23:41:26Z
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@dalias @clive Yeah this is an obvious cause and it's weird that lighting wasn't mentioned in the article. I'm thinking 2008 is about when LED headlights started becoming prevalent, and with the added fun of SUVs mounting the "low" beams at eye level of a normal car, it doesn't matter whether people bother to turn off their high beams (which they don't, either).
(DIR) Post #AciYNjPlDao2ntnrG4 by aburka@hachyderm.io
2023-12-11T23:49:10Z
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@dalias @clive Relatedly I've just learned that auto dimming mirrors are a thing https://www.autoblog.com/2021/09/29/put-auto-dimming-mirrors-in-more-cars/
(DIR) Post #AciYNkMFi7atjJAZQe by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:10:13Z
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@aburka @dalias Had not heard of that, thank you for the pointer!
(DIR) Post #AciYWbpemKJxtU9Iyu by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:11:17Z
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@polarisera Yep yep -- several folks in this thread have made that point too! A good one
(DIR) Post #AciYlkKxRKhacC0Xzs by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-12-11T23:38:42Z
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@TomSwirly @clive It absolutely is. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with newer more efficient lights, but the bulbs are all misdesigned to point straight forward rather than to work with the lens to point down at the road, and they're waaaaaay too bright.
(DIR) Post #AciYll3yjwiMrp4VAe by InkySchwartz@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T00:38:16Z
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@dalias @TomSwirly @clive The issue is the color temperature, and aim is off so we both nailed in the eyes with much too bright lights that also are this intense blue white light instead of a warm light that is not so piercing.
(DIR) Post #AciYllv9YFFVWjwy3M by RealGene@mastodon.online
2023-12-12T01:04:31Z
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@InkySchwartz @dalias @TomSwirly @clive Not to mention street lighting also.High pressure sodium lamps, with their orangish narrow band simply light dark objects (i.e. people in non-reflective clothing) better than "full spectrum" LEDs.
(DIR) Post #AciYlmyjcPhyo8dLH6 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:18:34Z
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@RealGene @InkySchwartz @dalias @TomSwirly yep yep
(DIR) Post #AciYwLA1NxKdiWwafI by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:20:32Z
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@dale_price yep -- several other folks have made similar points: Directed lighting that isn't diffuse enough, and pedestrians that are staring at their phones
(DIR) Post #AcibS4eKVbPLgSNcrA by dale_price@mastodon.online
2023-12-12T01:48:41Z
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@clive Also seems like pedestrian signals at crosswalks are unmaintained and permanently malfunctioning – either they don’t give long enough to cross safely, give the walk signal when it isn’t safe (like when a turn lane has the green), stay on “don’t walk” forever, or are permanently out of order. The call buttons (even if not smashed by vandals) NEVER do anything.Curiously given when the increase in deaths started, it looks like the US mandated major changes to crosswalk signals in 2009.
(DIR) Post #AcibY6XAPnu1GXuBcG by tubaboy@triangletoot.party
2023-12-12T01:49:37Z
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@clive I like the theory of the automatic transmission being a culprit. I miss shifting….. #<8^)
(DIR) Post #AcibggRCoFEsw7CwBU by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:50:26Z
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@tubaboy I enjoyed driving stick back in the 80s and 90s!But I'm laaaaaazy so I'm team automatic now lolol
(DIR) Post #AcibmhxM4naNNq7Na4 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T01:52:19Z
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@dale_price Aha, I didn't know that about crosswalks!For me, crosswalks have seemed dodgy af for as long as I've been alive lolAs a pedestrian, I can tell the cars aren't paying any damn attention to them (even the ones with buttons and flashing lights don't register, because the lights aren't red typically); as a driver, I ... don't sometimes don't notice them!
(DIR) Post #Acida5AYexydWMOvJY by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T02:12:32Z
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@clive I don't know, I feel like the "at night" part there is significant in regards to it being solely the responsibility of a distraction.
(DIR) Post #AcigZ0PXALG6KsaGtk by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T02:14:31Z
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@TomSwirly @clive I'm wondering the same thing. More and more in recent years I'm having a lot of issues driving at night. It isn't because LEDs exist, it's because currently things are poorly regulated and more poorly enforced. Numerous vehicles have lights that are too bright (probably third party) or improperly installed (put a LED in a reflective lens upside down and it almost appears like it's stuck on bright.) Lately many even drive with their actual brights on.
(DIR) Post #AcigZ2B4b4sbobpkdU by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T02:15:43Z
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@TomSwirly @clive What I'm wondering here is if the problem isn't, ironically, too much light. Too many are "night blinded" more and more between all those brights, improperly installed lights, and frankly straight up illegally too bright (but not enforced) third party lights. Pedestrians typically aren't wearing lights on themselves even if they wear reflective clothing, so it could be quite easy to miss them relative to other vehicles.
(DIR) Post #AcigZ4QOF6Jumh10mu by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T02:45:55Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @TomSwirly That's a really interesting way of looking at it (no pun intended) ... I think it could easily be trueWith a lot of spotlighted areas that are brighter than ever, it casts the non-illuminated stuff -- like pedestrians -- into a deeper shadow by contrast
(DIR) Post #Acigjn7aupPuIyKtJg by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T02:47:53Z
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@clive @TomSwirly Yeah.It really doesn't help that Amazon and the like are flooded with lights fighting each other over who can promise the most lumens. They're all lying, but most are still way too much all the same -- essentially they may just as well be stuck permanently on bright even when on low.At this point I feel like the only way to safely be a pedestrian at night is to have a vest with simulated car lights.
(DIR) Post #AcigpprFeeA8WsZdPE by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T02:48:13Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou Yeah, that's the thing -- cellphone use seems omnipresent, right?The article did point out that there are extra bursts of mobile-phone use at the end of the day, when people get off work -- that can correlate with driving/commuting, and driving/commuting in the darkBut these are marginal things; this dismal trend is probably driven by a whole lot of mutually reinforcing trends
(DIR) Post #Acih6CkGKOfQ986svg by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T02:51:21Z
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@clive Yeah, don't get me wrong. Cell phone usage has been objectively proved to cause an increase in accidents. The problem is that there is now so much and it's so, as you put it, omnipresent, that it's basically background now. Like how we don't count car stereo systems or air even though they may have been reaching to adjust them while driving at some point.There are indeed bursts, but those bursts happen all hours. I'd imagine the most is more around 5pm-ish?
(DIR) Post #AcihYZHM8piC8r78aG by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T02:57:02Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou YepDoesn't feel like it'd correlate strongly with "night", to me
(DIR) Post #AcihuLLyb3YPK7etDE by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T03:00:26Z
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@clive Well, it would be interesting if there is any breakdown by month and time. Right now 5pm in the northern hemisphere is when it's starting to get dark, but most of the year it's not. But I do still believe that the overall average trend would be that cellphone usage and other such distractions are more uniform than not -- bursts aside.
(DIR) Post #Acik3AqtD4NHGiSMCW by aburka@hachyderm.io
2023-12-12T03:24:16Z
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@clive @dalias My car's not expensive enough to have them available unfortunately, so I'm going to try this instead. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/blindzoneglaremirrormethod.pdf
(DIR) Post #AcimqkGUX9qrCKCFbk by dalias@hachyderm.io
2023-12-12T03:30:29Z
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@aburka @clive I just point my side mirrors at the ground by the rear wheels so I can ensure nothing's there when changing lanes without seeing any headlights.
(DIR) Post #AcinF8UG81GhGsGazA by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-12-12T04:01:12.708445Z
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@dalias @clive Kind of interesting that even for Canada it went down though.
(DIR) Post #AcipzGF3pOY2YGHOj2 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T04:31:33Z
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@lanodan @dalias YeahThat's weird, right?Canada and the US are very similar in so many ways -- same vehicles, similar urban/suburban/rural infrastructures, same mobile phones and obsessions with them ... I don't know for sure but would guess they probably switched to highway LED lighting at the same timeSo, yeah: Weird
(DIR) Post #AciqBBPDdOm51liReq by SocialistStan@mymastadon.link
2023-12-12T03:22:38Z
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@clive The line starts rising in 2012 when hoodies came into fashion. Could be correlation not causation, but interesting.
(DIR) Post #AciqBCN82ehG1ZkI2S by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T04:32:36Z
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@SocialistStan 😂
(DIR) Post #AciqIwUUyHnd5QsxAO by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T04:33:12Z
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@maximum_mew yep, I've noticed the same thing with the surfacesIt's like driving atop the Void
(DIR) Post #AciqOkaI9WL5teMfB2 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T04:34:17Z
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@SocialistStan @futurebird Yep -- people have been talking about pedestrians staring at their phones ... that strikes me as definitely being a likely contributor to things
(DIR) Post #AciqV92g8ELHUMgvOy by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T04:34:52Z
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@allenstenhaus Yeah, this is something a lot of folks are pointing to, and it makes a lot of sense
(DIR) Post #Aciqb6lRVwP2A3TNuC by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T04:33:20Z
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@maximum_mew Testify!
(DIR) Post #AciqjC3rhfpAuGwfg0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T04:37:16Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @TomSwirly TrulyWhen I cycle at night I'm lit up like a damn roman candle -- lights on the front and back of the bike, helmet with blinking bright lights fore and aft (and this is in NYC where things are pretty brightly lit; I'm not sure I'd risk riding at night on one of those suburban arteries where cars really start flying at a serious clip)maybe pedestrians need similar lighting
(DIR) Post #AciqsRazJhmngvqiMC by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2023-12-12T04:41:34Z
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@clive @TomSwirly Unfortunately probably so.I do think a lot of people don't realize they at least must wear reflective clothing if they're going to be anywhere near to traffic.And yes, before anyone says it, this is indeed just yet another reason we need a less car-focused society with cities better built to not require everyone to individually be driving around all the time just to get by.
(DIR) Post #AcisKepZnlianogq6C by kkarhan@mstdn.social
2023-12-12T04:57:25Z
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@clive Yeah, #Stroads are just bad as @notjustbikes explained ages ago.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM
(DIR) Post #AcivL6fKc2Gyzcnt3o by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T05:31:31Z
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@kkarhan @notjustbikes That's a great video -- I wasn't aware of the term #Stroads, love it!
(DIR) Post #AcixBbVtGZp3g5z5Qu by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T05:52:13Z
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@vjgoh @dalias Yeah, that makes senseI was making a related point in another part of this thread -- Canada (I grew up in Toronto, travel back there and up to Bracebridge often!) -- has vehicles and urban/suburban/rural infrastructure sufficiently similar to the US that ... it's really weird that the trendlines would be so different on this
(DIR) Post #AcixUlmzHlO5397W1A by Pagan_Animist@beekeeping.ninja
2023-12-12T05:55:39Z
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@clive @John Interesting, if a bit dated.https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/PEDESTRIAN-AND-CROSSWALKS-50-STATE-CHART.pdf
(DIR) Post #Aciy1Y8X4A04GOpPiC by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T06:01:36Z
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@Pagan_Animist @John yeah, very interesting -- thank you for the pointer!
(DIR) Post #AciyVVqi8RjfrAmPtA by SocialistStan@mymastadon.link
2023-12-12T06:07:02Z
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@clive Was being serious though, someone with a dark colored hoodie, which most of them are, and their hood up in the dark is much harder to spot and recognize as 'theres and person there' in a brief instant. Especially if it's from behind and the driver is distracted by other stuff. At least if the pedestrian has a phone there's a spot of light there.
(DIR) Post #Acj609msuRsu5cY8Tg by redpy5@sunbeam.city
2023-12-12T07:30:58Z
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@clive I personally would hypothesize and like to see tested how our eyes adjust from bright lights inside the cab being glanced at to a darker night environment. People glance at their phones, smartwatches or installed LCD display quickly to check stuff like directions, the name of the song playing, a text, their A/C, etc. Beyond just distraction, which would also be a factor during the day, our eyes take time to adjust to lower light conditions and quick glances at the bright displays (and as others in this thread have noted brighter headlights) would be my guess for the increase in night time collisions.
(DIR) Post #AcjVcURD4srBzgmqEC by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T12:18:05Z
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@SocialistStan Oh my apologies!I’m pretty sure hoodies were around and fashionable long before 2012 though I am pulling this data point *out of my butt* though
(DIR) Post #AcjVp3kHd9ywyQhZbs by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T12:20:18Z
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@redpy5 Yep — several folks have pinpointed the brightness of car LCD systems for being a problem You’ve nearly described the effect it has on our eyes I’ve felt this myself while driving
(DIR) Post #AcjpOtBKHZ0RlT9JYG by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T15:59:38Z
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@vjgoh @dalias yeah these regional differences are fascinating! New York City is a jaywalking city; if there isn’t any traffic, people do not give a hoot for what the stoplights are saying, they just cross … if there’s even a *slight* lull and the traffic they’ll cross against a red — and sometimes even if there isn’t 😂It’s like everyone still has some ancestral memory that pedestrians used to dominate the streets before cars emerged
(DIR) Post #AcjrHfnbq7Vi8mk7O4 by chrisaraymond@me.dm
2023-12-12T16:19:14Z
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@clive It doesn't help that way too many pedestrians wear all black clothing at night and aren't paying attention to their surroundings.
(DIR) Post #AcjshvvGcD0Dd8PV1k by chrisaraymond@me.dm
2023-12-12T16:36:38Z
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@clive Read the comments section, which points to an obvious problem: the blinding high Kelvin LED lights on SUVs and trucks. Apparently technology exists and is used in Europe and Canada to make headlights safer for oncoming drivers and pedestrians. That's more convincing to me than distracted driving, which occurs at all times of the day.
(DIR) Post #AcjzMPMRBQlWEunnIe by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T17:49:45Z
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@SocialistStan @duckwhistle aha, interestingI had no idea they went back to the 1920s!
(DIR) Post #AcjzfexZPYKO7YLnJA by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T17:50:20Z
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@chrisaraymond Yeah, quite a few folks in this thread have been pointing to the increasingly-brilliant lights of cars!
(DIR) Post #Ack0UEqEHJoPsv2DFg by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T17:58:01Z
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@chrisaraymond truly
(DIR) Post #Ack9cgvscS1OubmcwC by gerdcastan@sueden.social
2023-12-12T19:45:42Z
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@clive USA has no laws that mandate building cars in a way that protects pedestrians
(DIR) Post #AckCkXmCqQlMh6h70y by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T20:21:21Z
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@gerdcastan trulyThey don't even mandate tests for head-on collisions with other cars The makers of SUVs long ago lobbied heavily to ensure that would be left out of the spec ...... knowing that if they were forced to test what happens when a jacked-up SUV hits a regular sedan head on ...... it would show what the University of Buffalo discovered in an analysis of such head-on collisions: Enormously higher death rates for the folks in sedans
(DIR) Post #AckDAd1Ly8fkULDXcW by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T20:24:47Z
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@sammycola Yep -- I cycle 12 months of the year around NYC (though I own a car, and have the subway, bike is how I do most my travel, grocery shopping etc.) ...... and I see a lot of distracted driversTo be fair, I also see distracted pedestrians, and distracted cyclists! But the drivers have a much more dangerous tonnage at hand when distracted
(DIR) Post #AckFxDwOCk34nmCB3Q by nicksalt@mas.to
2023-12-12T20:57:10Z
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@clive one of the most puzzling aspects of this, to me, is that it’s US specific, and a lot of the potential causes being discussed here and in the OP also exist in Europe/ROW - I.e. smartphones, led lighting, inebriation habits etc. What is different in the USA? What is unique to that country?
(DIR) Post #AckOTKcfhCasQRnGgi by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-12T22:32:36Z
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@nicksalt yeah, that’s the weird part. Canada is right next-door with a reasonably similar infrastructure and transportation make up, yet it has not seen the same trend the US has seen …Though as someone pointed out in the thread, apparently the mix of cars and trucks in Canada is a little smaller than in the US — so to the extent that vehicle size matters however incrementally in this trend, Canada might differ a little bit there
(DIR) Post #Ackc1XkIi4RgNN0QOu by ponyponypony@mas.to
2023-12-13T01:04:28Z
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@clive Increasingly bright headlights is my best guess.
(DIR) Post #Ackcidr5s1XDmCjZxI by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-12-13T01:12:12Z
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@clive #NYCbike did you read the NYT article?https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/11/upshot/nighttime-deaths.html (sorry-no subscription look at fig3)#NYC does NOT have the upward trend in night time ped injuries. See fig1/2 (why injury not death-- b/c NYC monthly ped death is too small)NB 1:NYC Open Data starts in mid2012, not 2000 like the USA data; 2: covid19 reduced injuries, but we are creeping back up in general; 3: bike/scooter VS pedestrians is creeping up but still <<< car/truck injuries. #Urbanism
(DIR) Post #Acko9nLnm3WKXYFQTA by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-13T03:20:25Z
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@atthenius That’s super interesting! Were those charts in the NYT story? Or from NYC sources?
(DIR) Post #AckoGW36V1L0uJhsie by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-13T03:20:40Z
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@ponyponypony Yep, quite a few folks have been offering the same hypothesis!
(DIR) Post #AckpXUP1yPzkg7cWdE by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-12-13T03:35:34Z
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@clive I made these plots from a different data source. I’m set up to look at nyc open data not USA— on my to do list to start looking at that. (In theory, should be able to reproduce these maps I made by pulling from the USA database, and subserving by nyc geographical region instead of pulling directly from NYC’s. )NYC Crash Data:https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public-Safety/Motor-Vehicle-Collisions-Crashes/h9gi-nx95USA Crash Data:https://www.nhtsa.gov/research-data/fatality-analysis-reporting-system-fars
(DIR) Post #AckqAPxARy40Al9MLg by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-13T03:43:00Z
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@atthenius Aha, right on!
(DIR) Post #AckqIofSRkSz8hs4Zs by stevenbodzin@thepit.social
2023-12-13T03:44:30Z
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@atthenius my pet theory is that the numbers go up as people grow more selfish starting in 2009. Anti-Obama Trumpism, social media, post-GFC jobs recession, general alienation. (I know this doesn't really explain the diurnal cycle.) Anyway I don't know if NYC is on the same rhythm as the rest of the USA on these big social shifts.
(DIR) Post #AclWbdBxX8rF7njAie by ponyponypony@mas.to
2023-12-13T11:38:31Z
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@clive The main reason I haven't gotten an ebike yet is that I'm a motorcycle rider and am terrified of riding slower than the rest of traffic, being passed constantly where there is no accommodation for passing. Yep, USA.#bikes #safety #usa
(DIR) Post #AclaIZdiuqtQQFslcG by clive@saturation.social
2023-12-13T12:19:52Z
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@ponyponypony Heh yeah — I hear thatI’ve done a lot of intercity riding on a regular bike and it can be harrowing!