Post AcIJDoSIB4udWIbICO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
(DIR) More posts by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
(DIR) Post #AcH2lTCZoMR34Qkk9g by DeeGLloyd@mastodon.world
2023-11-28T18:16:58Z
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Good video from @anderspuck about #genocide both in the context of #Russia's invasion of #Ukraine and #Israel's invasion of #Gaza. Lots of dead civilians doesn't always mean genocide, while genocide can be committed without killing anyone. I'm curious whether #HAMAS could credibly be accused of genocide against Israel. I also wonder about how some of the allusions #Netanyahu & his ministers have made about displacing #Palestinians should be taken into consideration. https://youtu.be/L9n77DPJ7AE?si=L3YRRMtsjrDfAsfA
(DIR) Post #AcH2lU6wQnWPtF7l0i by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-28T18:35:41Z
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@DeeGLloyd @anderspuck it's all about intent. And intent is not the same as convictions or ideology.Hamas would probably love to be genocidal. But the intent behind their actions is terror.And some parts of the Israeli government clearly would love an excuse for ethnic cleansing.I don't know whether this is the wish of the majority of those in charge. I doubt it though. At least some in the IDF seem not to be keen on further urban combat.
(DIR) Post #AcH2mji9uo2oYy84DA by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-28T18:43:47.872264Z
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@t_mkdf Not surprising, Hamas was clearly preparing for pulling IDF into a lengthy hide and seek in urban jungle full of armed men in civilian clothes.@DeeGLloyd @anderspuck
(DIR) Post #AcH2w99yfPhm64d10q by ohiorob@mastodon.world
2023-11-28T18:42:00Z
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@t_mkdf @DeeGLloyd @anderspuck The only thing stopping #Hamas from committing genocide is the IDF. They lack the means, not the will. It’s their founding principle, after all, to kill all the Jews and the Jewish State.
(DIR) Post #AcHEPG9Mr785fcQZeK by MobiusBlack@kolektiva.social
2023-11-28T20:39:33Z
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@DeeGLloyd @anderspuck excellent video, but Mr Nielsen should make it clearer that he's speaking strictly about the legal definition of genocide, which may not be the same as the definition in politics or social theory. One difference is that 'genocide' used by other sciences (or common usage) doesn't require identifying a specific individual before the label can be used. For example, among historians and anthropologists it's commonly accepted that the massacre at Nataruk was genocide despite it being impossible to identity any individual perpetrators. One tribe massacred the entirety of another tribe in order to occupy resources, they bludgeoned children and pregnant women whose hands were bound, the identifying pottery of the victim tribe completely disappeared from the record replaced by the identifying pottery of the perpetrating tribe; I think most people would agree that is genocide. I think there is a good case to be made for both Hamas and the Israeli regime commiting genocide in the broader sense, although neither fit the legal definition used by Mr. Nielsen.It's also important to keep in mind the purpose of this legal requirement, which is to hold people accountable, and you can't do that without identifying individuals and proving their specific actions. The requirements of legal accountability should not be used to dismiss the existence of genocide as it is understood outside of a legal context.
(DIR) Post #AcHEPH939mTAkvHpnE by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-11-28T20:53:44Z
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@MobiusBlack @DeeGLloyd Thanks for those comments. It is true that I am talking about the legal definition, but I also think that is the most useful one. I don't quite follow your argument that an individual perpetrator has to be identified in order to say that a genocide has taken place. We don't use that standard for other types of crimes. It's perfectly reasonable to say that a murder has taken place even if it is unknown who the murderer was.
(DIR) Post #AcHGYAgElHUBDjBAsi by MobiusBlack@kolektiva.social
2023-11-28T21:17:42Z
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@anderspuck @DeeGLloyd Perhaps I am misinterpreting your commentary. At approximately 2:48 in your video you discuss the idea that genocide is a crime committed by an individual: "it is an individual who commits the genocide". My point is that in common usage, 'genocide' does not require that an individual is the one commiting the act, and that most people would be comfortable saying that groups are the perpetrators even if no person in that group is ever identified. I think that historically there many cases of so called mob mentality becoming a genocidal act.Of course, if you meant something different then my comments may not apply.I think that your analogy to murder is an interesting one because, like genocide, the existence of the crime can depend on the intent of the perpetrator. For example, a death by gunshot may be murder in one context but manslaughter in another- is the perpetrator firing at an individual, or firing in the air to celebrate a wedding? In practice, it often requires the identification of an individual and evidence of their intention, although that may not always be the case.Thank you again for your interesting video.
(DIR) Post #AcHIoNLvc5T945XCcK by MobiusBlack@kolektiva.social
2023-11-28T21:32:00Z
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@ideal_CH @anderspuck yes that is my confusion, in the video he says that "genocide is a crime committed by an individual", but I've always understood it as a crime that can be committed by a group. I do not have a legal background, so I may be misinterpreting Mr. Nielsen's comment.
(DIR) Post #AcHIoOGIEWYVstuDTM by anderspuck@krigskunst.social
2023-11-28T21:43:02Z
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@MobiusBlack @ideal_CH My point with mentioning that genocide is an individual crime was mostly that the same is not true for crimes against humanity, which is systematic violence against civilians as part of a government policy. So you can have individual soldiers committing genocide even if it is not state policy to do so.
(DIR) Post #AcIEAiunotRnhKdxZo by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-28T23:03:57Z
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@kravietz @anderspuck @DeeGLloyd they got what they wanted.And the IDF as well as the government knew that.But did choose to do it anyhow.
(DIR) Post #AcIEAk2ddFJFBvJjQe by DeeGLloyd@mastodon.world
2023-11-29T00:17:37Z
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@t_mkdfSupposedly there was a warning from an Israeli Intel unit near Gaza who gave the warnings & most of them were killed. I think @fulelo may have posted an article about it. @kravietz @anderspuck
(DIR) Post #AcIEAl0C3owqAdBIG0 by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-29T06:19:40Z
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@DeeGLloyd @fulelo @kravietz @anderspuck I didn't necessarily mean the Hamas attack as such. But that one of Hamas' goals with the attack was an Israeli attack on Gaza.Every Palestinian kid killed leads to less support for Israel. And potentially more support for Hamas.Israel is making so far all of US' war on terror mistakes in quick order.
(DIR) Post #AcIEAljZL7FCRMPWz2 by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-29T07:08:20Z
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@DeeGLloyd @fulelo @kravietz @anderspuck regarding the attack as such: there was some intel that at least something would be happenin, like a warning from Egypt and an actual drop in signal intelligence. But Israeli intelligence didn't act accordingly.
(DIR) Post #AcIEAmNyurZQShJnyS by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-29T08:24:29.986451Z
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@t_mkdfWell, there's zero evidence for that except for what Egypt said *after* 7 October. I would be therefore very careful about accepting that as genuine information. A logical question arises, if Egypt had intelligence about the attack, why didn't they alert media the way UA did before 22 February and instead made news of it after the attack had happened.@DeeGLloyd @fulelo @anderspuck
(DIR) Post #AcIEsPxdeWM9ebnybI by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-29T08:33:58.108578Z
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@t_mkdfBy the way, I watched one video of a pro-Hamas journalist from Palestine. She said something to the effect "we obviously expected a response from Israel, just not that strong". I've seen more such voices on the Hamas side.I allow a possibility that what Hamas really intended was a raid to take hostages, in which case the usual Hamas fundraising show would repeat — rockets, hostages, limited IDF operation, ceasefire, more billions from Hamas sponsors and UN for "reconstruction".ISIS style slaughter however was a bit too much and Hamas efforts to kind of magically erase it from media space testify to their desperate attempts to return to status quo, which obviously is very unlikely this time.@anderspuck @DeeGLloyd
(DIR) Post #AcIHMKCRpvtMNk7XRg by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-29T09:01:45.901871Z
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@t_mkdfI'm pretty sure IDF offensive of such a scale wasn't one of Hamas goals. The current IDF operation realistically threatens their very continued existence.More importantly, neighbors of Gaza don't seem to mind, and I don't mean Israel (obvious) but PAA, Egypt, Jordan etc.@DeeGLloyd @fulelo @anderspuck
(DIR) Post #AcIHWDl2dunVIY1JyK by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-29T08:39:25Z
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@kravietz @fulelo @anderspuck @DeeGLloyd I suspect they had intel that something was going to happen but not too many details.And of course this is always viewed in hindsight.
(DIR) Post #AcIHWEbrTX33wMjVIm by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-29T09:03:07.256682Z
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@t_mkdfThere's one equally likely and equally sourced possibility: they had nothing, just came up with the news post factum ;)@fulelo @anderspuck @DeeGLloyd
(DIR) Post #AcIJDnhqxjlXCGsCoa by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-29T09:06:44Z
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@kravietz @fulelo @anderspuck @DeeGLloyd I don't think it threatens Hamas as an entity.But it threatens the survival of their individual members. Including the leadership.
(DIR) Post #AcIJDoSIB4udWIbICO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-29T09:22:36.515409Z
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@t_mkdfOnly mid-rank. High rank lives outside of Gaza, of course. But Hamas nonexistent in Gaza will place the organization on the same historic list as IRA or RAF. And I don't think anyone really has a problem with that, especially residents of Gaza, who already protested against Hamas only last summer (which somehow didn't gain much traction in so called "pro-Palestinian" news).@fulelo @anderspuck @DeeGLloyd