Post AcDCjftBtJ2ckXd0xU by wjmaggos@liberal.city
(DIR) More posts by wjmaggos@liberal.city
(DIR) Post #Ac9Jp21ivw5du3HVEu by taylorlorenz@mastodon.social
2023-11-25T00:37:00Z
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“The problem is, there’s a certain type of pedantry that has followed the internet through its various forms, especially in more technical channels, and it often creates a negative experience because it seems to be driven by ideology or disdain for people who don’t think the same way.” https://tedium.co/2023/11/21/mastodon-reply-guy-problem/
(DIR) Post #Ac9Jp2zHMVjEsl944G by taylorlorenz@mastodon.social
2023-11-25T00:41:17Z
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Curious to hear if others on here are experiencing what’s described in this piece. I enjoy most of the replies I get on here (though I never have time to respond to most of them, I like reading them)I do think Mastodon could use more safety/audience limiting tools though, like what Ernie describes. Esp for larger-ish accounts on here who get a lot of replies, it would be nice to limit conversations on some posts. I would also love a real DM inbox on Mastodon! but that might be a pipe dream 😅
(DIR) Post #Ac9Jp3tI0GX1gTLnN2 by Gargron@mastodon.social
2023-11-25T01:05:19Z
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@taylorlorenz In case you haven't seen, we're experimenting with something in this area:https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2023/11/improving-the-quality-of-conversations-on-mastodon/
(DIR) Post #Ac9Jp4ruMt1MiTiCrA by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-11-25T01:17:02Z
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@Gargron @taylorlorenz this solution sounds convoluted. if it's worse here than other places, let's understand why that is first. let's group boosts and likes first. and let's start doing things the platforms can't. why can't we handle replies like lemmy/kbin do? reddit has the best mechanism for managing comments ever devised. instead of different apps to replicate different platforms, we can take the best from each an build lots of versions of Mastodon instead that try them out.
(DIR) Post #Ac9KG5PSSqWGDIHdYm by TheMadPirate@detroitriotcity.com
2023-11-25T01:21:56.762192Z
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@Gargron Except for the fact that @taylorlorenz has no self awareness.Also please, donate to the "Taylor Lorenz Self Awareness Charity Fund".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS21fd3LIx4
(DIR) Post #Ac9KrJGjtkuzubxGOu by tom@labyrinth.social
2023-11-25T01:02:40Z
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@taylorlorenz I love the fediverse but this tracks. My experience is that the fediverse’s decentralized structure helps muffle truly awful, aggressive, harassing replies, but snarky, condescending, or annoying replies are endemic and there seems to be very little anyone can do about that right now. I have to mute notifications on any post that gets more than like 50 interactions. I think if I had a Big Following I’d really struggle here
(DIR) Post #Ac9KrKH89mpF2795eK by TheMadPirate@detroitriotcity.com
2023-11-25T01:28:40.037946Z
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@tom @taylorlorenz I don't see why would be such a bad thing to counter-argument people with people who hold really bad ideas ( that is, ideas that are either based on non falsifiable premises or which premises have been shown to be false by empirical evidence ). For example, if someone on Fedi uses technical and econometric evidence based on Neoclassical or Austrian economics to show that Keynesian economics premises are false.
(DIR) Post #Ac9L7SO7lGbOpO6nNw by tim@phire.place
2023-11-25T01:01:11Z
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@taylorlorenz It's not unique to Mastodon (and Ernie to his credit doesn't claim so), but it's certainly a strong current here. I would also say it's common in the coding/open-source community, although again, you can also find it anywhere where people want to one-up each other by showing off how much they know.
(DIR) Post #Ac9L7TIqMNyLfIe5nE by TheMadPirate@detroitriotcity.com
2023-11-25T01:31:34.773233Z
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@tim @taylorlorenz > says wants people to open-up to each other> wants to remain in the Fedi equivalent of an ideological Echo ChamberStu Burguiere is right. She truly has no self awareness at all.
(DIR) Post #Ac9LQNctgoOZYt2elU by TechConnectify@mas.to
2023-11-25T00:58:19Z
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@taylorlorenz Yes, unfortunately.I run up against a fair number of FOSS zealots from time to time. And a lot of folks who generally just... don't know when to hold their tongues.Some of this is structural - replies listed in-order with no ability to signal affirmation and sort accordingly means a lot of the same things get said/asked again and again. That's annoying but easy to dismiss as clunkiness.The zealots, though - especially when stuff gets boosted to a wider audience - are rough.
(DIR) Post #Ac9LQOV8R9mSH6PyIy by TheMadPirate@detroitriotcity.com
2023-11-25T01:35:00.323712Z
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@TechConnectify @taylorlorenz That's because FOSS was started by Ancap Programmers, not by those who seek to build ideological walled gardens. The fact that many of those "programmers" seek to run against the Ancap spirit of FOSS is something that defies all logic.
(DIR) Post #Ac9LYbc9ZApjGGcGPY by FinchHaven@sfba.social
2023-11-25T00:52:42Z
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@taylorlorenz I'm going to bite on this again, aren't I?I saw the entire history of this issue as it happened here, live, and I've been directly involved with some of the main charactersIt started out on Mastodon with a Mastodon Authority(tm) ("Masto Migra") selectively clipping some Very Famous People(tm) who (allegedly) were all going to move off to Bluesky because they weren't being treated with the deferential obeisance that their Position In Life(tm) had led them to expect they deservedThat's the real crux of itAlso see: "DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!?!?!"I've been blocked by several them at different times; the triggering keyword (I'm not making this up) in two cases who shall remain unnamed was literally "hubris"Hubris: "... exaggerated pride or self-confidence, often a dangerous character flaw in ancient Greek tragedy"Sure, these people know some things, but lots of people know some thingsBasically these people *really* need to get over themselvesThereKicked the ant hill, again
(DIR) Post #Ac9LYcbprqAoLZTWYS by TheMadPirate@detroitriotcity.com
2023-11-25T01:36:29.853204Z
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@FinchHaven by @taylorlorenz > Also see: "DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!?!?!"Answer : Someone who totally lacks self-awareness.
(DIR) Post #Ac9LYchVWki6dA83Oa by FinchHaven@sfba.social
2023-11-25T00:58:08Z
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@taylorlorenz So now we have Gargron rushing in to put out the PR fires with a proposal to "Improve the quality of conversations on Mastodon" by cloning the Twitter Nanny to chide people who dare reply to people they don't actively know in a sufficiently deferential manner"We also believe that by showing a bit of information about the person you’re about to talk to, we can prevent some awkward situations, such as explaining something to an expert in a given field"SoBack into our little Walled Gardens(tm) where we converse only with those we already knowHey!Wasn't that exactly what Mastodon was supposed to *not* be?A Walled Garden(tm)?Guess it depends on who builds and enforces the WallDoesn't it always?Ref: https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2023/11/improving-the-quality-of-conversations-on-mastodon/
(DIR) Post #Ac9Lj0y69idQn6qOfI by TheMadPirate@detroitriotcity.com
2023-11-25T01:38:22.730992Z
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In Case you didn't know it already, she has no self-awareness.
(DIR) Post #AcArJ94ylgbA6ojNi4 by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-11-25T10:58:33Z
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@GargronI didn't expect to like this idea, but I do. I hope it comes to the clients I use.If you really want to move the needle, make the reply button work differently when one is replying to a boosted toot: if my buddy Alice boosts a toot by Ben, and I hit reply from my stream where I see that it's an Alice-boosted toot, that reply should go to Alice, not Ben. I don't know who Ben is. Ben doesn't know who I am. Why should I be having a conversation with Ben, a complete stranger, when it was my friend Alice who thought whatever he wrote was interesting enough to promote to her stream? It's my friend Alice I should be having that conversation with. Ben didn't start a conversation with me or ask my opinion. Alice, however, very much did something to start a conversation with me: by boosting Ben's toot she said to me, and all her other her followers, hey, all, check out this thing Ben wrote. @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcArJAEwS8A5i0OqsS by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-11-25T11:03:58Z
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@GargronThe way replies work in the context of boosted toots, it's almost like a game of "Let's You and Him Fight" baked into the very architecture of Mastodon. Someone you know and might have some rapport with promotes something someone else said whom you do not know and do not have a particular connection with, and what they said might piss you off. Ordinarily, if your friend sent you an article that pissed you off, you would tell your friend that. You might say something like, "I didn't think you thought like this. You actually share this point of view?" But that's not how replies in the context of boosted toots work. Instead you're put in the position of expressing an opinion to the person who is quite likely a complete stranger who just said this offensive thing. That's probably going to come out like, "Well that's wrong. Allow me to explain to you why the thing you're promulgating in the world is so wrong." @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcArJB4hLhYuIWcBY8 by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-11-25T11:06:45Z
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@GargronThe way reply works in the context of boosted toots, it's almost as if the person doing the boosting was saying, "Hey, did you know this other person was saying this thing you really disagree with? Well, why don't you go on and tell them what you think. Sure, I'm the one inflicting it on you in your timeline, but leave me out of it."It's just fundamentally such a recipe for causing conflict and hostility. It deprecates friends or at least friendly acquaintances discussing things amongst themselves, which they might be expected to do with mutual understanding and charity, in favor of instigating discussion between complete strangers who are already at odds with one another, which is going to go about as well as we have observed it to go. @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcArJC1XoudLF29BGy by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-11-25T19:06:57Z
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@siderea @Gargron @taylorlorenz all great points. quote boosts would actually help with this since the reply would go to the QBer, even though I know they are often abused. I wonder how much of the bigger problem with reply guys here is an unintended consequence of not having quotes here.
(DIR) Post #AcDCjdFPiE2EYb0DgG by volkris@qoto.org
2023-11-25T20:45:50Z
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@siderea and this is one of the GREAT arguments for the #RT feature that so many talk about being, you know, the devil, the worst thing that could ever afflict a social media platform.Retweeting/tooting/whatever allows people to discuss a post without having to involve the original poster, even for legitimately drama-free reasons.And in other cases it allows a firewall to prevent escalation, just as described here.I hear the feature will someday be added to #Mastodon but the resistance to adding it was always misguided.@Gargron @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcDCje6aWWZNDVsgYy by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-11-26T20:07:10Z
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@volkris @wjmaggos @va3dbA bunch of folks have noticed how similar what I have suggested is to QTs, but there's two important differences. First, QT are something the hinge person (the person doing the boosting) decides to use or not. As such, they're of little benefit to the poor person being boosted, and then being inundated with hostility. Second, QTs are an optional feature for the hinge person to elect to use. I'm actually talking about changing the default (software) behavior of reply in the context of a boost.Giving people QTs maybe great for other reasons but it doesn't solve this problem that I am proposing this would solve. I'm proposing a change that will change a *default*. @Gargron @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcDCjf5Ct93iFWF636 by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-11-26T20:09:17Z
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@volkris @wjmaggos @va3dbHitting a QT button *allows* someone to *choose* to boost something to their follower with their own commentary, as an *alternative* to replying. The fact it would give people an alternative to elect does not fix the present problems the *reply* function has, with driving conflict.Unless we're suggesting – which I don't think anyone is – replacing the reply button with a QT button, then a QT feature only helps the problem of boost/reply-driven hostility to the extent people can be convinced to use it instead of the boost feature.Which would be implausible as a solution under any circumstances, but in the circumstances where there's a hardcore of Mastodon users who think QT's are the Antichrist incarnate and would sooner cut off a limb then use them, I don't think they're going to be the solution to this. @Gargron @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcDCjftBtJ2ckXd0xU by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-11-26T22:16:25Z
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@siderea @volkris @va3db @Gargron @taylorlorenz the best of all worlds might be no QTs but every boost asking (or allowing) you to add a comment. your followers would see the original post but also be moved to respond to your comment, or comment just to you if you didn't leave a comment. no boosts would default with a comment mechanism that initially included the original poster.also, the ability to rank comments (but maybe not original posts). I want mastodon and lemmy to merge basically.
(DIR) Post #AcDRob4kiJ4ua5qE2S by volkris@qoto.org
2023-11-27T01:05:24Z
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@siderea in that case I simply disagree with your proposal altogether :)I think replies to boosted content SHOULD go back to the author. When I put out content, and someone else boosts, I DO want to be engaged with by default.I’d say it breaks the conversation, almost hijacking threads away from the author, to break it on the hinge like that.QTs at least make this action clear, reframing into a new thread with a pointer back to the old one.So @wjmaggos I’d say this without QTs is the worst of both worlds.The author’s thread is broken, but without a new contextualization to justify that break.@siderea says the reply function as it is is almost as if the person doing the boosting is saying “Why don’t you go on and tell them what you think?”And that’s EXACTLY how I, as an author of content here, expect it to work, it’s exactly the value I derive out of the platform.I’d hate to miss out on the conversation that my content prompted happening elsewhere.@va3db @Gargron @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcDSYY3AILdOWC0gbY by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-11-27T01:13:45Z
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@volkris @siderea @va3db @Gargron @taylorlorenz but couldn't the original poster see the reply if they searched for it, just not be notified? the thread wouldn't be broken technically. wouldn't that be a nicer way to have these conversations? they could jump in if they want later.
(DIR) Post #AcDSxVDbxYBsyZnNAG by volkris@qoto.org
2023-11-27T01:18:13Z
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@wjmaggos I don’t think so.When I put an idea out there, that someone would like to talk about, how do I know to go searching for it? How many conversations am I going to miss because I didn’t know to go search for replies to some content I put out a while back?No, if someone has something to add to something I’ve said, I want to be notified so I don’t miss it.OR, how about this, let the end user decide what notifications they want. Keep the functionality in the system, but let the end user decide how they’d like to set their notification preferences.I always want to talk about empowering people to make their own experiences here, not take away options.I believe the system probably already exposes enough info that it can tell if something is a reply to a boost, and it can mute that if the user doesn’t want to know about it.@siderea @va3db @Gargron @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcDT7zSIOW9heLfHIO by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2023-11-27T01:20:09Z
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@volkris @siderea @va3db @Gargron @taylorlorenz that sounds like a great compromise.
(DIR) Post #AcDic06g2ICPfaJxgW by volkris@qoto.org
2023-11-27T04:13:39Z
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@wjmaggosThis is a general criticism I have–fine: ax I grind :) –about #Mastodon in that it could be doing so much more if it focused on empowering users to influence their own experience the way they wanted it to be, letting different users have different experiences on this platform.It keeps coming up over and over with Mastodon. Developers either make decisions for users or they give posters the responsibility for figuring out what readers are going to see.I just think the approach of Mastodon developers has often really missed that opportunity.At every turn I would want to see Mastodon developers keeping in mind the focus of empowering the readers to have the client they want.@siderea @va3db @Gargron @taylorlorenz
(DIR) Post #AcDkPz4yELF8urv8SG by siderea@universeodon.com
2023-11-27T04:33:51Z
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@wjmaggosNo. @volkris @va3db @Gargron @taylorlorenz