Post AcB4X2gqcPy7keOtcm by kris@outmo.de
(DIR) More posts by kris@outmo.de
(DIR) Post #AcAgIvvcZ1yXpI3AKO by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-25T17:03:25.079065Z
0 likes, 8 repeats
what would be a good chat platform for a hackerspace?if you could explain your vote it would really great :akko_please:note: public instance vs selfhosted (e.g. libera.chat) isn’t the main argument, but nonetheless something to considershare welcome :bunsmile:
(DIR) Post #AcAgc0kWrb1MHSxVmS by Leaflord@leafposter.club
2023-11-25T17:07:12.372964Z
4 likes, 2 repeats
Sending handwritten code through the mail.
(DIR) Post #AcAghnLRc9GcRcz31U by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-11-25T17:08:09.953693Z
7 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin require irc, eject people that complain
(DIR) Post #AcAgkOKz31Ytkp0S9o by Zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com
2023-11-25T17:08:43.784299Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin Well I don't think it's fucking Facebook, which is why I am trying to learn how to use prosody's roles stuff so I can offer a setup for my hackerspace.The committee are being fags about it (surprise surprise, they're fags about all the usual fag topics too, I've had to point out the tranny/pedo association to them multiple times), so maybe I just won't offer it to them.Basically my opinion is that selfhosted is the key factor; it's a hackerspace, it should be self-reliant, that's the fucking point. Anything that achieves that is, in my opinion, suitable. Maybe having multiple channels (committee/admin, members, public/guest) is a reasonable requirement but it's hard to pick something that doesn't satisfy that.
(DIR) Post #AcAgoKos4MRw0ArlcO by Mirage@shitposter.club
2023-11-25T17:09:26.323225Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin I feel like rocket.chat could be an option to consider depending on your goal. As a user perspective, it is easy to sign up, communicate, PM someone, pin messages and create different channel. (I think it is also be self hosted)
(DIR) Post #AcAgu2GNyRCmBjSE0u by RedTechEngineer@bae.st
2023-11-25T17:10:28.095310Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin @Leaflord based
(DIR) Post #AcAhrANvQBVcSjB0jY by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-11-25T17:16:39.892427Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin Would say definitely IRC for a hackerspace but well ergo (IRC server) can work pretty well with bridges if you go the self-hosting route (or there's a nice existing network with that stuff in place).
(DIR) Post #AcAki2u0AiyMVmWTC4 by lykanthrocide@shitposter.club
2023-11-25T17:53:07.303979Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin matrix is accessible and encrypted with a variety of frontends. I don't know enough about IRC to say much, but my experience with it shows that it doesn't always record conversation history and is less convenient for sharing files.
(DIR) Post #AcAm1IW6RRLaOa5WOO by ilja@ilja.space
2023-11-25T18:07:41.294746Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin i voted xmpp, but really needed multiple choice options 😬basically, i think non-floss is weird for a hacker space. and mailing list isn't chat (unless maybe delta chat counts).So that leaves xmpp, irc, or matrix. I will personally prefer irc or xmpp, but don't find matrix unacceptable if that's something others prefer.The big downside of most irc servers to me, is that it doesn't show messages that were send when you were offline. It's possible to have this in irc on the server side, but i don't know any public servers who have. And there's other work arounds too, but that's not something you can really expect people to be willing to simply do.It's also possible to bridge these three networks. I think that a room on libera chat is automatically bridged to a matrix room. And I've had good experience with xmpp to irc using a self hosted biboumi. So you may need to think and experiment a bit (aint that what hackerspace is al about :blobfoxsmirk: ), but it should be possible to have all three at once. That way people can choose themselves what they prefer. But it does come with it's own set of possible problems.
(DIR) Post #AcAs5ne1FcgJosJx3I by liz@akko.cat-wo.men
2023-11-25T18:22:31.433314Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin it’s already a standard for many projectsit’s easy to get into without commitment (web clients that can join with a generated username)no having to choose an instance to connect fromnot having very-personalized names, profile pics, inline images, etc. helps to keep focus on the content insteadi could think of more but that’s why i like itwhile i think matrix would be a good alternative to IRC for this purpose, i’d rather use matrix to just talk to friends
(DIR) Post #AcAs5p02DFt01Rd30S by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-25T19:15:34.412135Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@liz I can’t see to what your bullet list refers to
(DIR) Post #AcAsKZGH0bxTYUFvDE by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-25T19:18:13.219551Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ilja I agree with you on several topicsI don’t have much experience xmpp, I prefer IRC, it has several great assets
(DIR) Post #AcAunEYzF7rffQo0x6 by breizh@pleroma.breizh.pm
2023-11-25T19:26:25.125580Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ilja @duponin Libera removed the matrix bridge, didn’t they?
(DIR) Post #AcAuo2gUtTa77ChibI by ilja@ilja.space
2023-11-25T19:46:12.439570Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@breizh @duponin i have no idea, i don't actively use it. Sad if true, but i'm sure they had good reasons if so
(DIR) Post #AcB2KA5ta0B52dqYsK by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-25T21:10:11.855113Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aura I agree in pretty much everything but IRC, there are software such as Ergo who provides a bouncer built in
(DIR) Post #AcB2PSovNp5YZHR9bE by liz@akko.cat-wo.men
2023-11-25T19:36:42.415204Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin oh i must've removed something when formatting sorryit was in reference to IRC
(DIR) Post #AcB2PTJPYTTW5phV7Q by lowusage@tilde.zone
2023-11-25T19:31:37Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin I would say either IRC or XMPP for a hackerspace ?Maybe have a mailing list, for collaborating over network (or a Matrix if you need to encrypt that)
(DIR) Post #AcB2W81z4lvs7NiunI by izaya@social.shadowkat.net
2023-11-25T21:12:21.309903Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin @aura consider: IRC channel/server, with biboumi set up to provide a bridge from XMPP. Means you get to service both, and XMPP users get the upsides of XMPP
(DIR) Post #AcB2hQ3cOXARD9s6We by izaya@social.shadowkat.net
2023-11-25T21:13:00.570051Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin @aura (ergo may be interesting for the server part but last I looked it couldn't actually do the "Relay" part of IRC so it's not suitable for my needs, personally)
(DIR) Post #AcB3FfYXHGLd7pfGxk by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-25T21:20:33.760948Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@izaya @aura if I can I'd prefer to maintain a single server, not two
(DIR) Post #AcB3ZrerzXKaS2G0em by izaya@social.shadowkat.net
2023-11-25T21:22:18.019273Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin @aura totally fair; would go XMPP then. server's lightweight and gives you a lot more than IRC
(DIR) Post #AcB3gvK6lMyXqTuc6a by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-25T21:25:29.775344Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@izaya @aura yeah, but clients are awful
(DIR) Post #AcB4X2gqcPy7keOtcm by kris@outmo.de
2023-11-25T21:34:30.883738Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ilja @duponin it's fairly easy to set up a modern #IRCv3 server with https://ergo.chat and indeed you can run a #xmpp and matrix gateway for it. I run such a 3-way hybrid chat network on https://irc.f-hub.org
(DIR) Post #AcB555f44trUoQnmQS by babouille@piaille.fr
2023-11-25T21:39:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @duponin but ergo doesn't scale(TM) as it's single server only
(DIR) Post #AcB556XIpFFNWeB5xw by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-25T21:41:04.480713Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@babouille @lanodan first, have more than 2 users (you and NickServ) on the server
(DIR) Post #AcB5Tjs0Ec7cT2bgjQ by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-11-25T21:45:23.984687Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@babouille @duponin True but I don't think it really matters for IRC with probably only 20~30 users.Not everyone is building an EFNet.
(DIR) Post #AcB5a9iB4MkOLp4Sfo by babouille@piaille.fr
2023-11-25T21:46:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin @lanodan come ooooooon!There's ChanServ, also
(DIR) Post #AcB67xJreKhnlNodm4 by gaige@neue.city
2023-11-25T21:52:58.571592Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin forum with xmpp as a live-chatroom. that way you can maintain threads on slower topics that people easily can search through, but also have a live hangout where people can ask questions and get answers in real-time
(DIR) Post #AcB7Y2tpcpJ4YLdyVs by babouille@piaille.fr
2023-11-25T21:53:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @duponin load isn't the problem.Fault tolerance is.Because, -I'm sorry- hackers are not the best at Keeping A Server Online
(DIR) Post #AcB7Y3hSeJ0P2Grbs0 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-11-25T22:08:35.054111Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@babouille @duponin Not everything need 99% of uptime with redundancy everywhere and given how hackers are usually terminally on IRC, it'll probably go back up soon enough.Specially given how rustic IRC is, there's a lot more things where redundancy would be warranted yet there's usually none.
(DIR) Post #AcB9G0fpMVsqLTcYpU by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-11-25T22:03:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponinMattermost is hands down the best self-hosted option. It can do everything people are used to from other modern chat. It does not shit the bed with notifications like Matrix. It works great on mobile. It does not give you a weird number of clients that all implement different subsets of the spec like XMPP.@amolith
(DIR) Post #AcB9G28vtml8u2FJpo by amolith@nixnet.social
2023-11-25T22:12:14.077915Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@claudius @duponin I have to disagree completely. I don't think Mattermost is at all suitable for something like a hackerspace because there are only two user types: completely privileged and completely unprivileged. In my personal opinion, the inability to do something as simple as appointing a couple moderators without giving them full access to administer the entire server kills Mattermost for medium-sized groups.Small groups where you can't pay and don't need mods, sure. Big groups that need mods and can afford to pay, sure. Medium groups where you need mods but can't afford to pay, :akko_shrug: Locking such a basic feature behind a paywall is a _really_ shitty move imo.And that was the situation with XMPP five or ten years ago, sure. Today, most modern, “mainstream” XMPP clients support everything you would expect a chat client to, except calls, but even that's becoming much more common.
(DIR) Post #AcC2hJzz7B1TZx5MFU by duponin@udongein.xyz
2023-11-26T08:49:05.656508Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Stellar discord is not what I would call good, but more okay-ish
(DIR) Post #AcCB1gdxQn9jEe0KDA by kirby@lab.nyanide.com
2023-11-26T10:22:38.096531Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin so here's what you do: you send letters to everyone involved and you all decide on a time and meet every single day irl on that time. Completely reasonable solution. There's also irc
(DIR) Post #AcCMdfTRKLSI6jOjlQ by takao@shitposter.club
2023-11-26T12:32:47.170513Z
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@duponin IRC because you don't need anything else
(DIR) Post #AcCOHpAenDyzihKAro by crime@chaos.social
2023-11-26T12:48:04Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin I honestly don't know. My space uses Matrix, but as soon as it comes to moderation stuff we get into cursed territory. Creating rooms with sensible settings is not as intuitive as it should be, but the best we have.On the plus side, if you just want to chat it's easy to set up because it works just like any other (modern) messenger. And you can create spaces with rooms, which is nice if you have several groups meeting at your space and want people to join those they like by themselves.
(DIR) Post #AcCOyz81e9uV3SfrHs by critical@blob.cat
2023-11-26T12:59:05.184632Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin I'd say XMPP, because it's more open and your users are most probably tinkerers.
(DIR) Post #AcCP37xGlv0laWcOhc by critical@blob.cat
2023-11-26T12:59:50.182234Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin or IRC
(DIR) Post #Acy4sdnnMNEBlfXkWW by crime@chaos.social
2023-11-26T12:51:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@duponin IRC and XMPP mostly appeal to the older population and people who grew up on specific parts of the internet, to everyone else it's scary.Discord has nice features. You can assign roles to people and ping them based on that, it has decent moderation tools, and you can also have people have their places for different topics. But security-wise it's just bad (and also I wouldn't take a space seriously that uses discord, but that's me).
(DIR) Post #Acy4ses5NuFp5GYgqm by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2023-11-26T18:32:49.177652Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@crime @duponin > IRC and XMPP mostly appeal to the older population and people who grew up on specific parts of the internet, to everyone else it's scary.I've managed to onboard users onto XMPP that were doing very little other than using corposcum chat platforms beforehand.They just need a *lot* of hand-holding and sane defaults in the client (Conversations has some questionable ones for some things like discovery).
(DIR) Post #Acy4sfrlgZauAZPwzg by crime@chaos.social
2023-11-26T12:54:37Z
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@duponin Mailing lists are - well, I wouldn't put my main (social) communication channel in one, they're too formal nowadays for everyday communication. Good for announcements if people don't use them for drama and other people stop reading them due to that :)
(DIR) Post #Acy4tATNtHVd5vFPn6 by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2023-11-26T18:37:37.863572Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@crime @duponin I think we might be thinking about two different kinds of mailing lists.There are the newsletter kind (which indeed should be called newsletters) which I would call either commercial or formal depending on the contents, and then there are the BBS/forum conversation-style ones. Any formality in those is purely the result of who mainly uses them now, which is mostly software development projects.Rather, the main problem with them is that they deal badly with discovery of older (but still live) conversations from one's client without having to go out of one's way to download archives from somewhere (if they're provided at all) and then massage them to be acknowledged by one's MUA.As far as I'm concerned they're a hack for those who couldn't use NetNews (of Usenet fame, usually transmitted via NNTP) for some reason.
(DIR) Post #Acy4y45756j4igEKAK by crime@chaos.social
2023-11-26T19:15:11Z
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@lispi314 @duponin 🤷 I'm on a bunch of mailing lists, for various reasons, and it is definitely a different type of conversation happening there vs. on any chat platform. Sure, it all depends on the people using them, but I have yet to come across one that is actually used for casual purposes. I know some used to be, but with the rise of all those chat platforms that are easily accessible it would probably only take a few weeks of a mailing list until some chat group spawns somewhere anyway.
(DIR) Post #Acy4y4uVzzqJI6HNHk by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2023-11-26T19:27:19.339495Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@crime @duponin The few casual mailing lists were probably already remnants that survived the advent of forums and didn't go with NetNews from the start for whatever reason (which does also enable private setups like forums do).I wouldn't be surprised if the casual chat platforms finally killed them off.Plus, if they were used for casual insider banter & talk, the completely open nature of mailing lists isn't exactly a good match for that in the first place.Most traditional MUAs don't exactly match-up with expectations for quick low-effort chatting either. Delta Chat is decidedly non-traditional but does do exactly that. But then mailbox quotas are a thing, which is another reason I think email isn't very popular for casual high-noise conversation (and it's explicitly why I didn't choose it for my users). Email hosts have essentially restricted themselves out of being considered usable by most users that aren't comfortable having to handle backups & persistence on their end (i.e. using POP3 for everything because of the quotas preclude use of IMAP if anything more than plaintext will be shared, without losing stuff if some device dies or gets replaced).
(DIR) Post #Acy56ewhu7hXMxOdYu by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-11-25T22:27:00Z
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@amolithI tried to love XMPP years ago. They completely lost me, when OMEMO support went nowhere (yes other than "Conversations", I mean.) And carbons did not work. And so on. I tried. I am not returning to it. It is dead to me.@duponin
(DIR) Post #Acy56gD3CqMvHw3Cfw by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2023-11-26T08:53:50.858682Z
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@claudius @duponin @amolith Don't most maintained clients support OMEMO now?
(DIR) Post #Acy56h8pk0acB95Lk0 by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-11-26T15:18:22Z
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@lispi314 @amolith @duponin in the sense that most clients that are still used are still maintained and at some point started supporting OMEMO. But overall a ton of clients never got support and are essentially unusable and abandoned. https://omemo.top/ is an overview. I'm not entirely sure if they kept updating the list. At any rate: when I left XMPP, it was completely unusable for communication except for people on Android+Conversations. On Windows not a single client could use OMEMO.
(DIR) Post #Acy56hyEethqkZ8OrQ by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-11-26T15:21:23Z
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@lispi314 @amolith @duponin I view that whole "XEP" process of adding to the protocol as broken. It may be a good way to herd cats (developers), but to end-users, the opaque game of "my client would like to do OTR or OMEMO, can my server do that? Can your server do that? Can your Client do that?" just yields so many combinations that do not work as expected. And even if they work, they did not work reliably.Again, all of this may now work perfectly, I just do not care any longer about XMPP.
(DIR) Post #Acy56ixuxZ2vprzf0K by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2023-11-26T18:40:57.471023Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@claudius @duponin @amolith It's not really any different from browsers though, is it?Does it support HTTP2/3, websockets? WebRTC? Then if it supports the latter the server doesn't actually need to have any support of that for it to be feasible to establish peer to peer programs between compatible client browsers.I find that browsers are also even *worse* at listing which specifications they implement and which they don't.
(DIR) Post #Acy56m2HXnJtMH3giu by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-11-26T15:24:51Z
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@lispi314 @amolith @duponin (also please note that at least five of those clients that _do_ support OMEMO are just forks of Conversations.)