Post AbmGIHcsbW9unPfuxk by donw@mastodon.coffee
(DIR) More posts by donw@mastodon.coffee
(DIR) Post #Abm6uUB1OG7NBSDq88 by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-11-13T20:32:02Z
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I wonder what a Venn diagram would look like that compares people who complain that Python packaging is bad and people who know about and use pipx(If you're not on board with pipx yet it's absolutely worth learning - it really does massively reduce the pain of trying out new tools written in Python: https://pypa.github.io/pipx/ )
(DIR) Post #Abm80kVDhir5VcDjA8 by neilernst@mastodon.acm.org
2023-11-13T20:44:26Z
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@simon personally this just screams XKCD's “there are 14 competing data standards” to me
(DIR) Post #Abm8RCNSgl6nUTCgl6 by faberfedor@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T20:49:24Z
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@simon I recently came across and thought maybe this will take care of my biggest Python pain point. But I'm so traumatized by Python packaging that I'm looking around at other languages, like Rust.
(DIR) Post #Abm8d11UjI4ZkbYzmi by dltj@code4lib.social
2023-11-13T20:49:40Z
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@simon I'm reading https://pypa.github.io/pipx/comparisons/#pipx-vs-poetry-and-pipenv and still wondering when I'd use pipx. If I find a Python something I need to run, my first step is to pipenv an environment for it.If I'm writing my own CLI, is there something I need to do to make it work with pipx for those that'll want to use pipx to run the CLI?
(DIR) Post #Abm8qKGwTNd7DQ8Ttw by sethmlarson@fosstodon.org
2023-11-13T20:53:18Z
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@simon I'm in the weird aether of never used pipx and think Python packaging is "pretty good".
(DIR) Post #Abm92PmNp6p3lpbfOa by jwarlander@mastodon.nu
2023-11-13T20:54:26Z
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@simon I really like pipx! ✨The very fact that you have to tell people about it though, and discuss a handful of other related third-party tools that all have their pros and cons, is kind of why Python packaging isn't that great though? 😅
(DIR) Post #Abm9FJARiXp31q0fKa by ebaum@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T20:56:43Z
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@simon Due to its name, I've always assumed it was just another packaging/distro tool competing with pip/poetry/pipenv and never bothered looking any closer. Now that I dig in a bit, I see it's not that, but something that globally installs python-based tools in isolated environments. That's useful! I was doing that manually and this is much cleaner.
(DIR) Post #AbmAG6FLLJtNCNF2wq by carlmjohnson@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T21:09:40Z
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@simon But how do I get a reliable installation of pipx? (Seriously, it should be like npx where it's built into the language distribution.)
(DIR) Post #AbmAW0otHqBt09SMFM by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-11-13T21:12:56Z
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@neilernst yeah, I think the single biggest problem with Python packaging is that there are multiple solutions to any given problem, and it's hard to confidently figure out which one to use
(DIR) Post #AbmBlEciLbOe6uaF0a by mburr@stranger.social
2023-11-13T21:26:25Z
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@simonIt solves the problem by building even stronger walls around mutually incompatible environments.I was hoping for a "fix" but I'm still convinced that it's an unfixable problem.It really isn't any one person's fault. It's hard to point at any one bad decision.Python will forever be imperfect like all things, but the package stuff is like an out-of-control tumor. Some parts of the tumor are better than others.And of course I will love #Python forever. Needs PyCargo or something.
(DIR) Post #AbmC1vjvoF9GT0v7S4 by webology@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T21:29:41Z
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@simon Not enough people who use GitHub Actions know that it comes installed by default. So scripting with `pipx run {cmd}` really takes the edge off.
(DIR) Post #AbmFcoFauutDog0WDw by medecau@hachyderm.io
2023-11-13T22:09:54Z
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@simon @neilernst but pipx is not a packaging tool is it?been using it to install cli tools only
(DIR) Post #AbmFn1gPpVSgNAQNPc by kellogh@hachyderm.io
2023-11-13T22:11:53Z
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@simon idk i’ve had plenty of problems with pipx too, then again i don’t complain about python packaging, so maybe you have a point
(DIR) Post #AbmGIHcsbW9unPfuxk by donw@mastodon.coffee
2023-11-13T22:17:37Z
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@simon @acdha Well there'd at least be me in it. Pipx feels like the cold drink of water you get when you stumble into an oasis in the middle of the desert. It's great. And then you remember you're still stuck in the middle of a bunch of desert.
(DIR) Post #AbmI45KrhewYX1bf4S by pkw@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-11-13T22:37:13Z
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@simon I don't complain about packaging anymore.I switched our team to use pip-tools (pip-compile and pip-sync) and it is great. Maybe because we run server code right from the venv, but it's great for that. Upgrading packages with possible conflicting inter dependencies is controlled now.
(DIR) Post #AbmIUsIUHsyjueGiTA by flyingsaceur@ioc.exchange
2023-11-13T22:41:53Z
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@simon that’s me in the middle. Pipx makes CLI installs tolerable, though it likes to break and require reinstall —all when you don’t look at it for a hot minute.And pipx does nothing to make it any better to build packages without choosing a build system for the one way it is subtly broken and to wrap it in shell scripts, multistage build containers, and duct tape if you want to get any serious work done
(DIR) Post #AbmJUpmPkMAk3koLse by ezarowny@file-explorers.club
2023-11-13T22:53:25Z
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@simon I like pipx in theory but I often nuke my installed applications when I upgrade Python versions 🤦♂️
(DIR) Post #AbmTxEc80TfujOBHe4 by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-11-14T00:50:21Z
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@peregrine right, it's a tool for installing software that has been written in Python in a way that avoids any dependency conflicts with anything else
(DIR) Post #AbmgKBC25fm0EQgNCi by ianthetechie@fosstodon.org
2023-11-14T03:08:57Z
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@simon pipx is certainty useful but installing Python applications is not what I usually have complaints about. Packaging in Python truly is bad. Python is still my second favorite programming language though, and I still ship a lot of Python. But boy is packaging bad 😂* packaging for pypi is tolerable* pip doesn’t have any reproducibility* pipenv is a total unmitigated disaster* poetry is mostly great but occasionally breaks* Python upgrades break package managers so we need pyenv locally
(DIR) Post #AboCPCUU5JqrOZi8eW by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-11-14T20:42:52Z
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@peregrine What are some of the things that make Cargo better?
(DIR) Post #AboLIGLyDxsew4UloO by pamelafox@fosstodon.org
2023-11-14T22:22:57Z
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@simon Hm I havent tried pipx yet. Would it help me with the conundrums I faced in http://blog.pamelafox.org/2023/10/strategies-for-managing-dependencies.html ?
(DIR) Post #AbodOILbWOUI25LlQG by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-11-15T01:45:35Z
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@peregrine oh I'm very aware that there are ahwrp edges! Just interested in hearing what Cargo does betterI made some notes about sharp edges here https://www.python.org/nominations/elections/2022-python-software-foundation-board/nominees/simon-willison/
(DIR) Post #AbouVJJaYzDRiKwFN2 by RhetTbull@fosstodon.org
2023-11-15T04:57:29Z
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@simon I'm in both circles. Love pipx and use daily. Think python packaging leaves lots to be desired. Pipx is great if you need a single package. But when you need to install a package with a "^3.9" python requirement and one with a ">=3.9,<3.13" requirement in same venv you're in for fun. Happened to me yesterday 😀
(DIR) Post #AbrAzO5NNSFgmSZeym by ksaj@infosec.exchange
2023-11-16T07:11:37Z
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@simon All I know is that there are extra steps taht require me to re-install my Raspberry Pis from scratch again, just because of how it does libraries now.Is there a list of complaints, 'cos that one is mine.