Post AbfAx2CYBT7OnNpjns by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
(DIR) More posts by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
(DIR) Post #Abf3ELiG5wjubBPUFU by Ruth_Mottram@fediscience.org
2023-11-10T06:06:04Z
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Danish farmer about #Ukraine's membership of the #EU :"I had not imagined that there would be war in Europe again. But if EU membership for Ukraine can ensure that it doesn't happen again, I would be more than happy to pay 25 per cent of my agricultural subsidies from the EU to them," says Leif Hougaard.- "This would mean a lower income and less to fall back on. But that's how it is and should be. Because no one is dying here."https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/udland/eu/det-kan-blive-dyrt-landmanden-leif-hougaard-hvis-ukraine-kommer-med-i-eu-men-han
(DIR) Post #Abf3wWCOT9iTrWZDLk by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T10:56:07.010406Z
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@Ruth_Mottram While this is a very noble thing to say by one Danish farmer, it would be naive to think that all EU farmers would share this attitude, especially as we faced similar conflicts of interests in 2000’s when many new Central and Eastern European joined EU and CAP, competing with Western European farmers.Of course, this is going to create frictions, especially in the same CEE countries that don’t yet feel that confident as their businesses had been competing on the common market for the last ~20 years, half of which involved huge investments to comply with EU rules.And of course, it’s going to be in long term good for everyone in the EU, but it requires a very careful and balanced policy management in order to deescalate such conflicts among all participants.
(DIR) Post #Abf66rCjQTvtoVmajQ by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-10T11:21:06Z
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@kravietz @Ruth_Mottram yes. Especially since countries like Denmark and many states in Germany have agricultural business models (industrial pig farming...) that would profit from Ukraine in the EU and lower prices for fattening feed.
(DIR) Post #Abf6ZYfHR0osiDp0iW by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T11:27:09.822118Z
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@t_mkdf EU farming is complex, which creates plenty of traps to fall for, as demonstrated by this years Poland grain embargo. E.g. if German push for cheap feed from Ukraine using their lobbying weight this will once again antagonise Polish farmers who will rightly feel screwed by what they perceive as dumping practice. That’s why I highlight it has to be done very carefully. @Ruth_Mottram
(DIR) Post #Abf8IbPUAsm6DCTc2q by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-10T11:37:48Z
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@kravietz @Ruth_Mottram yeah.Food security is IMO one of main reasons for the established long term funding of Ukraine by Germany.This is also one thing to keep in mind. German political establishment is less concerned about T-72s on the Elbe. But quite a lot about food security from the 2040s onwards...
(DIR) Post #Abf8IcBhHdL6cj27Bw by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T11:46:31.963424Z
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@t_mkdf As you remember, “energy security” was one of the main reasons quoted by Germany for construction of NS2, mostly against the energy security of remaining Member States 😉 @Ruth_Mottram
(DIR) Post #Abf9IstnFe9mPHLppI by voron@mstdn.party
2023-11-10T11:49:24Z
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@t_mkdf @kravietz @Ruth_Mottram sounds like what is needed is leadership, spelling out why hardship maybe required perhaps after the rich are taxed more.Though actually leadership in western democracies has been lacking for well past my 50 year lifetime.
(DIR) Post #Abf9Itky3wgv4CEIi0 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T11:57:45.183635Z
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@voron Leadership assumes there’s some defined set of facts and values according to which someone is going to lead. In the world of postmodernism that dominated political philosophy of Western 20-21st century, the very concept of “fact” is questioned, not to mention “values”. As result, the facts and values of course are still there but are not discussed publicly, and leadership of course still happens, just not on the surface.@t_mkdf @Ruth_Mottram
(DIR) Post #Abf9i9AbtO6A6vGNSC by voron@mstdn.party
2023-11-10T12:00:50Z
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@kravietz @t_mkdf @Ruth_Mottram ahh so leadership is impossible got it.Well let’s just say I disagree.
(DIR) Post #Abf9iAN3Qbe9po5pUO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T12:01:54.788471Z
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@voron No, I’m just saying leadership is incompatible with postmodernism, not that it’s impossible or not necessary.@t_mkdf @Ruth_Mottram
(DIR) Post #Abf9xdmOMyjfO6K6cq by voron@mstdn.party
2023-11-10T12:04:41Z
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@t_mkdf @Ruth_Mottram @kravietz again, pasha what ever see above. All that is needed is someone to pound the table say:Violent aggression bad.Murder bad.Sacrifice to prevent the above good, if your greed supercedes the above you are a bastard.That’s leadership
(DIR) Post #AbfAx1MnHtiaCrcP8C by voron@mstdn.party
2023-11-10T12:02:26Z
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@Ruth_Mottram @kravietz @t_mkdf as far as values being so varied, I also disagree.Violent aggression bad.Murder bad.Sacrifice to prevent the above good.
(DIR) Post #AbfAx2CYBT7OnNpjns by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T12:16:14.901701Z
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@voron I can only agree with these, but then you have other people who come up and say “it’s actually OK to murder people if they come from another tribe” or “another religion” or “if they’re rich” or “if they had sex before marriage” or “engage with the same sex”.And then you have postmodernists saying it’s not OK to tell these people “sorry, your values are incompatible with ours”, and telling that in such an aggressive way that makes any centre politician just avoid talking about this topic at all.And this is precisely what makes centre parties gradually move towards… well, basically nihilism, while creating a political opportunity for populists like Jobbik, AfD, BNP etc.I’m intentionally trying to avoid giving any specific examples as it would only distract us from the essence of the problem towards another tribal war ;)@Ruth_Mottram @t_mkdf
(DIR) Post #AbfCI9wShSfKpzwfHU by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T12:31:17.373747Z
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@voron That’s 100% my point - this “pounding the table” is fundamentally incompatible with the postmodernist nature of today’s political philosophy. It applies equally to “left-wing” and “right-wing” movements, which is best illustrated by declaratively Christian activists “defending” religious organisations from investigations into child abuse, which is probably the most un-Christian crime out there. At the same time declaratively left-wing activists silence criticism of medieval “religious” practices as long as they are practised by minority groups, ignoring the fact they are as much contradictory with left-wing values as they can be.And I’m not saying any of these is good thing or is desirable, I’m just stating a fact. 21st century Western popular politics became largely tribal, taking us back straight to pre-Enlightenment times. It starts with the idiotic divide into “left” and “right”, where everyone expects you to “pick a side”, meaning taking a whole bundle of both agreeable and utterly deranged postulates.@t_mkdf @Ruth_Mottram
(DIR) Post #AbfCXx3ONyujUziWVE by voron@mstdn.party
2023-11-10T12:21:24Z
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@kravietz @t_mkdf @Ruth_Mottram there is a damn war on the gates of Europe with whole cities destroyed. Russia as a nation is militarization not standing down. They are binding themselves to Iran & North Korea as well as China, what you are talking about can be chatted about in coffee shops by people in tweed jackets it’s not material to the leadership needed
(DIR) Post #AbfCXxkHoVE1e1mmMS by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-10T12:32:55Z
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@voron @kravietz @Ruth_Mottram positive example: German Minister of Defense Pistorius (Social Democrat) clearly stating that the Bundeswehr needs to be fit for war.
(DIR) Post #AbfDmSySbRlqVTtZRo by voron@mstdn.party
2023-11-10T12:18:38Z
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@Ruth_Mottram @kravietz @t_mkdf I believe you are getting pretty far afield. Leadership starts by focusing people on A task and rallying them to it, not engaging in a broad ranging philosophical debate, that in a word is academic which is the opposite of leadership.
(DIR) Post #AbfDmTlNfYu0xCmdhQ by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-10T12:28:39Z
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@voron @Ruth_Mottram @kravietz and back to the topic:It's all in the view of regional, national and European interests in a web of dependencies.So Ukraine might get the support from Germany and the EU that it needs. Polish security concerns will be taken more seriously. But Polish farmers might be thrown under the bus.
(DIR) Post #AbfDmUZ0h2bLR80H3Y by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T12:47:54.543056Z
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@t_mkdf That “web of dependencies” sounds very much like an echo of Wandel durch Handel philosophy which failed us miserably in case of Russia 😉 Dependencies are good as long as they are formed between peers who share similar values. This is why strategic Russian gas or Chinese resources imports were harmful for EU, as they created a critical dependence on a business partner with much more predatory system of values than yours, so it’s not them who are undergoing Wandel as result of the exchange.If a powerful EU player pushes to abandon or ease EU rules applying to existing producers in order to secure short-term profits for one of their own sectors, that undermines the whole point of EU existence as an economic cooperation framework 🤷@voron @Ruth_Mottram
(DIR) Post #AbfEHWSThOaEI1kDzc by voron@mstdn.party
2023-11-10T12:50:19Z
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@t_mkdf @Ruth_Mottram @kravietz what failed us with Russia and with the whole neo liberalism is missing the trueism that sociopathy Increases with networth. So economic engagement was never the fuel for liberal democracy, it’s the other way around.
(DIR) Post #AbfF3uiUoHwZQSJNSq by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-10T12:58:21Z
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@kravietz @Ruth_Mottram @voron web of dependencies is meant as a statement of fact.As seen by German reliance on russian gas. Some node in the centre of the net made a certain decision. And the periphery suffered because of it.And the periphery suffered regardless of the EU or not.
(DIR) Post #AbfF3vSa2wo5jNsBIO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-10T13:02:19.449957Z
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@t_mkdf Exactly. And my point is that any aspiring “centres” should take care when making decisions because the consequence may be that they eventually become peripheries themselves :)@Ruth_Mottram @voron
(DIR) Post #AbfUDK9F7nJIDbldoG by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-11-10T13:24:27Z
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@kravietz @Ruth_Mottram @voron short term gains trump long term risks...;)