Post AbFr82IAtet90j4aGW by escarpment@mastodon.online
(DIR) More posts by escarpment@mastodon.online
(DIR) Post #AbFr7nHyg6omTlriNM by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T15:27:27Z
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@aral @escarpment @3x10to8mps > "Oh it's only Jews dying. That doesn't matter as much."Who in the media has said this, and what did Aral say that sounds like this?
(DIR) Post #AbFr7oFB80AnRNYzeS by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T15:33:15Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @aral @3x10to8mps I concede this is a losing battle to prove the feeling. The feeling is one of betrayal. I learned in therapy to start with feelings rather than arguments. Jewish people everywhere feel betrayed, disappointed, and fundamentally unsafe.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7p4E4D0RzhRlDc by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T15:40:22Z
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@3x10to8mps @aral @escarpment I wasn’t talking to you, and you do not speak for Jewish people everywhere.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7psv1jYWWvAFEW by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T15:41:04Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral I don't speak for all of them, just the many I have spoken to.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7qbaLfHilS3ur2 by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T16:49:33Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral Have you spoken with any of the ones who were just arrested for calling for cease fire?
(DIR) Post #AbFr7rM1Z0Qp5Tn0Eq by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T16:50:31Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral No, very much not. It is very important to note that Jewish people are not a monolith and freedom of thought is one of the values defended by Israel and attacked by Hamas.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7s1V4nbnA7C7t2 by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T17:04:34Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral "It is very important to note that Jewish people are not a monolith..."Then shut the fuck up with your "Jewish people everywhere..." BS.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7sikU0CfKFQfIW by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T17:40:47Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral Both statements can be true. Jewish people everywhere can think something- e.g. one Jewish person in London, another Jewish person in Sydney Australia, another in Kyiv, another in Miami can all feel this way, while still other Jewish people in the same and different locations can think something else.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7taHGz1O0GTPjU by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T18:22:16Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral Huh. And yet what you said was "Jewish people everywhere feel betrayed, disappointed, and fundamentally unsafe."You did not mention that there are also Jewish people everywhere who do not feel this way. You cherry-picked the feelings of some and disingenuously represented them as universal (but with an opening left for your plausible denial).In any case, the feelings of Jews around the world, no matter how universal, do not justify killing children and innocent civilians, nor do they justify the state of Israel's existence and continued oppression and apartheid.There are white people around the world who feel threatened by non-white people. Does this justify them to form racist lynch mobs?
(DIR) Post #AbFr7uJeYHJkGzheSW by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T18:30:13Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral You mentioned "the state of Israel's existence" as if that's up for debate. That is troubling.I am not citing the feelings of Jewish people as justification- just as an observation.The question is: how many times and how fiercely can a country be attacked by a militant organization before attacking its military targets which are guarded by civilian human shields.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7v6ZcORuiiaii8 by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T18:45:54Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral "You mentioned "the state of Israel's existence" as if that's up for debate. That is troubling."The establishment of the state of Israel was horrendously illegitimate even by statists' own conventions, but I'm opposed to all states, period. They're *all* up for debate as far as I'm concerned. States are troubling!
(DIR) Post #AbFr7voWyxbwv39pE8 by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T18:47:43Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral Ugh I forgot I always have to get into an argument on here about anarchy and how ridiculous of a philosophy it is. Air is troubling, water is troubling, gravity is troubling. 100% of falls attributed to gravity. 100% of drownings attributed to water.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7y7kOUAe5EACSO by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T18:58:50Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral Attributing agency to natural forces as a comparison to the activities of nation-states is about as weak and pathetic as arguments get.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7ystZBsuRSDqwi by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T19:03:07Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral Mark my words. You will live your entire life and never see your philosophy implemented in any meaningful way. So while internally you will maintain your own sense of ethical superiority by washing your hands of all human issues and saying, "don't blame me, I'm an anarchist," externally it will have made no difference.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7znGBcyHGGarnk by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T18:50:30Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral I will happily bet that never in 1000 years will anarchy ever be the dominant mode of human existence no matter how much badgering anarchists do.
(DIR) Post #AbFr7zp252OBLlQHZ2 by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T19:08:39Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral You're one of the very last people whose words I would mark. I see anarchistic principles implemented every day. The difficulty of our predicament does not deter my acceptance and embrace of the only true approach to human freedom and well-being.Shitheads like you only reinforce my conviction.
(DIR) Post #AbFr80hymkLE6B8AD2 by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T19:10:28Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral Yes good luck with your conviction. Anarchistic principles are different than anarchy- the absence of states. That will never happen, and even stateless persons have de facto states. You cannot bring an anarchy to a state fight.
(DIR) Post #AbFr81XjgJk2ghLUsi by RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T19:13:33Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral You're clueless about states, but then that's to be expected from someone who mistakes an oppressive regime for a natural phenomenon. Good luck with your hell world of states and your religious devotion to them. Enjoy your panoply of gods and all their drama. Go Team Go!
(DIR) Post #AbFr82IAtet90j4aGW by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T19:16:01Z
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@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral I'm not religiously devoted to them. I just think it is ridiculous to start from a place of what if we didn't have this thing that every person on earth has and does. Again, it is like saying what if humans didn't need food or water. Silly humans fighting over food and water- I know what I'll do. Abolish food and water. A-food-ism and a-water-ism.States, though artificial, are more like natural phenomena than you allow.
(DIR) Post #AbFr82zQIrU1ArJ7g0 by mathew@universeodon.com
2023-10-28T20:15:37Z
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@escarpment @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral "States, though artificial, are more like natural phenomena than you allow."Serious question: Are there any examples of states existing in the natural world, other than among humans?I ask because when people talk about (say) homosexuality as being unnatural, the evidence is available that it's a natural phenomenon, in that it occurs across many species; whereas I'm not aware of any other species having anything like nation states. I can imagine they might exist in social creatures like parrots or other primates, but a quick web search doesn't seem to turn up any research saying so, and I don't recall hearing about any.If something literally only exists as an invention of humans, I have a hard time seeing it as a natural phenomenon, or anything like one. But maybe there's some research you're aware of that I'm not?
(DIR) Post #AbFr840sUwF0LeznaC by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T20:31:58Z
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@mathew @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @aral No, my point is not that it exists in nature. My point is that it emerges spontaneously and automatically among groups of humans.Language doesn't exist in any other creatures, but languages are invented spontaneously and automatically among groups of humans (the Nicaraguan sign language study).And it does so because groups of humans absorb or destroy individual humans.
(DIR) Post #AbFr84ghzPhYROZCme by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T20:35:06Z
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@escarpment @RD4Anarchy @mathew @3x10to8mps @aral When has the state ever emerged spontaneously and automatically among a group of humans? Citation, plz.
(DIR) Post #AbFr85NxOcIQbWnkC8 by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T20:44:54Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @mathew @3x10to8mps @aral I dunno, Ur? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur
(DIR) Post #AbFr86BwOmHL6YBf6W by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T20:51:16Z
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@aral @mathew @escarpment @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy This is a Wikipedia article about Ur. Where in the article does it cite sources that report Ur emerged spontaneously and automatically?
(DIR) Post #AbFr875b3qnXtAE6r2 by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T20:58:51Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @aral @mathew @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy How do you propose it emerged? By some intelligent designer / God who said thou shalt create a state?
(DIR) Post #AbFr87rSBv4yHacKRs by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T21:05:30Z
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@escarpment @mathew @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @aral We have historical records of the emergence of many states, and all of them were the product of deliberate violence by some to impose rule on the many. I’m not aware of any that emerged “spontaneously and automatically.”Scholars such as David Wengrow, David Graeber, James Scott, and others have offered plausible explanations for how the state first emerged—I’m partial to Scott’s theory of the state as the product of nomadic warriors imposing themselves as ruling elites over grain-producing sedentary communities in Mesopotamia.But I want to be clear—you asserted that states emerged spontaneously and automatically, and you have offered no evidence for this beyond a Wikipedia link that does not support your assertion, and now you’re demanding that *I* explain your assertion.Put up or shut the fuck up forever. Evidence? Citation? Source? A single example? If not, we’ll all know that you are absolutely, completely, embarrassingly making it up.
(DIR) Post #AbFr88id0Dc6wVUnKa by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T21:36:02Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @mathew @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @aral You are suggesting that the state emerged once.I am suggesting it emerged multiple times, the same way religions emerge multiple times- with Jesus, Muhammad, Joseph Smith.It is ridiculous to propose that state-making is some historical ill wrought on all humanity by some bad group. It has emerged and re-emerged independently numerous times.This page has more https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_formation
(DIR) Post #AbFr899vMjRqJAGasS by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T21:11:58Z
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@RD4Anarchy @mathew @aral @escarpment @3x10to8mps Also, all of this is an absurd and unasked-for tangent from the main point, which is Escarpment’s explicit advocacy of the murder of children (as long as they’re being murdered for a really good reason).
(DIR) Post #AbFr89jNEvnw56qu8G by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T21:38:38Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @mathew @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @aral I only took a few anthropology courses. I don't claim to be an expert on state formation, but my main takeaway is it's a "spontaneous/automatic" process that humans do, not a thing that humans "did/created once".
(DIR) Post #AbFr8AVwKMeWVjZgpc by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T21:40:06Z
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@escarpmentWhy is that your takeaway? Where did you learn it? What were the sources and examples and pieces of evidence?@aral @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @mathew
(DIR) Post #AbFr8BMl9yu59YHsA4 by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T21:42:42Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @aral @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @mathew Generally, I am interested in the origin of states. I would like to learn more about it and approach it with curiosity and the acknowledgment that we may never have a satisfying answer about how early states form.It seems like your anarchism rests on a narrative about state formation that may or may not be true.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8CHTl6H1zSpAZM by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T21:45:42Z
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@escarpmentYou asserted that states emerge spontaneously and automatically. Do you now admit, at least, that you don’t know?Stop so fucking desperately trying to make this about me. @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @aral @mathew
(DIR) Post #AbFr8DA4U7wUimMlf6 by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T21:48:04Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @aral @mathew You seem very angry as evidenced by your cursing at me.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8DQNVUzDXLzn4y by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T21:44:19Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @aral @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @mathew I was probably unduly influenced by the Robber's Cave psych experiment as an example of spontaneous state formation.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8E5r1IABbzOujA by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T21:50:08Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @3x10to8mps @RD4Anarchy @aral @mathew I don't know. I was not there at the formation of any ancient or modern state.I theorize that states form automatically because they have emerged in so many different locations in such similar forms.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8F7JDMvAmn5adM by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-28T21:53:16Z
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@escarpment “I theorize that states form automatically because they have emerged in so many different locations in such similar forms.”Setting aside how different this was from your initial sneering assertion, states have only existed for about 2% of our species’ lifespan. Does the brevity and recentness of their existence not give you pause when you assert their automaticity?@RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew
(DIR) Post #AbFr8G6zW2GFs5wqmG by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-28T22:16:35Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew No, it doesn't. Because perhaps whatever circumstance causes states to emerge was not around until whenever that started happening.Just like whatever circumstances were necessary to make the discovery of calculus inevitable were not around until the 17th century.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8Gl376ItsKgqDQ by magitweeter@mastodon.social
2023-10-28T23:58:54Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathewHey. What if the circumstances that cause states to emerge and allow their continued existence eventually go away?
(DIR) Post #AbFr8HVqJ7jaDSaD9U by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-29T01:23:01Z
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@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew Certainly a possibility. If the Wikipedia page on State Formation is to believed, that would involve un-domesticating crops and forgetting Bronze Age metallurgy and complex irrigation.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8ICjje2sMUeT0i by magitweeter@mastodon.social
2023-10-29T01:26:09Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathewNo it wouldn't—but for the sake of argument all that matters is that you admitted that it's «certainly a possibility».Which stands in marked contrast to what you said before, that the absence of states «will never happen».Both positions contradict each other.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8J14iUJMscCfTM by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-29T01:29:02Z
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@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew Yes, I suppose I should have said the probability is very low, unless very bad things happen such as a nuclear war or climate catastrophe and long dark ages in which all that forgetting happens.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8Jk616K98FGce8 by magitweeter@mastodon.social
2023-10-29T01:38:14Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathewThat doesn't follow either. If the state as a form of social organization is contingent on certain technologies, then it's at least as plausible that technological progress, will eventually make the state obsolete.Not “forgetting” but progress.No one knows whether «the probability is very low» of that happening.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8KN5g7W35BVlQW by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-29T01:58:37Z
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@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew Fair. There can be some technological progress that makes states obsolete. That technological advancement would need to answer or make obsolete the questions:What do you do if outsiders team up and try to invade you?How do you manage internal disputes between individuals and groups?How do you produce and distribute resources?
(DIR) Post #AbFr8LRjgKpGPsgzJ2 by magitweeter@mastodon.social
2023-10-29T02:01:45Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathewYes. But now you have a legitimate debate, instead of an overconfident «it will never happen» position.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8MUFoSQzdysVs0 by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-29T02:05:30Z
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@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew Yeah, I suppose it is silly to debate what will or won't happen in the next 1000 years. The only reason the debate is possible is because neither side knows. My concern is a doomsday cult mindset of pinning one's hope on some magical but unlikely outcome fixing humanity's ills.Then again, humanity may have a terminal case of climate change, so perhaps we need a miracle anyway.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8NCv8OABsVmBUW by magitweeter@mastodon.social
2023-10-29T02:11:48Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathewNo. Your concern was that you needed to let the anarchists know that anarchy «will never happen».After it's been shown to you that you have no real support for your self-assured position, *now* your concern is a doomsday cult mindset, etcetera.You've said before you're concerned about reasoning and fallacies. Have you heard before of “moving the goalposts”?
(DIR) Post #AbFr8NvETdbo5wVZYm by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-29T02:18:08Z
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@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathewI'm free to change my mind. The one thing I know is that I know nothing.As I have said, I like to ask questions and put ideas through the ringer to get out all my concerns and criticisms.Deep down, I still doubt that a deus ex machina technological advance will come along to make anarchy and not some other mode of cooperation dominant.But I suppose I should retract my confidence about it not happening- never say never.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8OfJiITKOs4NOK by magitweeter@mastodon.social
2023-10-29T02:25:32Z
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@escarpment @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathewGood.I never said anything about anarchism requiring a deus ex machina. All i said is, if you believe that technology is what made states possible, then technology may well make them obsolete.In any case, the last few decades have seen a substantial democratization in access to technical knowledge, and some democratization in manufacturing and energy generation too. That's less than 1000 years by over an order of magnitude.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8PUMeVIyxBx8xU by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-29T02:40:06Z
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@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew True. Democratization is a powerful thing.A concern I have in technical circles is reinventing the wheel and relearning about the problems society already knows about. Doomed to repeat history. For example, cryptocurrency. It seems like a techno libertarian oasis, but quickly the community re-learns about theft, bank runs, speculation, market manipulation, financial crises, and yearns for old fashioned government regulations.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8QGDmZaPLcLMYK by escarpment@mastodon.online
2023-10-29T03:13:10Z
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@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @3x10to8mps @aral @mathew Or on this platform, where instances are small states that have to figure out inter-instance relations (defederate?); interpersonal disputes (blocking, reporting); distribution of funds (funding the server costs, taking donations); defense of the instance from spam and hackers; and generally keeping the instance up and running.That list maps pretty closely to the list in the State Formation Wikipedia page.
(DIR) Post #AbFr8R7Oas7Y0XDpR2 by HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social
2023-10-29T06:54:00Z
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@escarpment Fediverse instances are not small states. You’re mistaking a situation that most closely resembles anarchism—groups of people formed through voluntary association figuring out how to live alongside each other in the absence of coercive authority or top-down violence—for states.@aral@3x10to8mps @magitweeter @RD4Anarchy @mathew