Post AbDoOig2OFauv5ZvX6 by athas@freeradical.zone
(DIR) More posts by athas@freeradical.zone
(DIR) Post #AbCaOWs8gfI9n8IHya by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T17:14:48Z
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Another ACM question: do members all buy into the Code of Ethics, or is that kind of hand-wavey? “Computing professionals should therefore […] respect copyrights, patents, trade secrets, license agreements, and other methods of protecting authors' works.” has been a real blocker to me joining. I "respect” software patents insofar as not getting my employer sued, but they're BS. "Other methods” would seem to include things DRM, and I don’t respect that.
(DIR) Post #AbCarqhi23AlhFOd7Y by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T17:20:06Z
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I’ll follow the letter of the law. I'm not saying "I want to crack software so my boss doesn't have to buy it”, or violate NDAs, or anything like that. But the spirit of that clause seems to go against the software freedom ideals I think are more important. Does that code obligate me to pretend software patents aren’t a terrible idea? Can I play old video games on an emulator?I’m asking seriously. I wouldn’t voluntarily sign off on a Code of Ethics where I disagree with the principles.
(DIR) Post #AbCbSMYn4LGevCdTXc by cmdrmoto@hachyderm.io
2023-10-27T17:26:42Z
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@tek I prove (by counterexample) that not all ACM members are on board with every clause of the ACM code of ethics.
(DIR) Post #AbCdFnLYMkt08sZxcO by cmdrmoto@hachyderm.io
2023-10-27T17:31:02Z
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@tek That’s what a professional organization’s “ethical code” is for, after all. To keep your (employer’s) business from violating the norms agreed upon by the profit-capturing industry
(DIR) Post #AbCdFo73W8sqWCntey by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T17:46:51Z
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@cmdrmoto I wish you're wrong, but I don't think so.
(DIR) Post #AbCdSqlkx5XWWQ3oHI by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T17:49:13Z
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@cmdrmoto That's a useful distinction. If I'm at work, I’ll totally go along with every bit of that. My job is protecting my employer’s interests, and I take it seriously.If I'm hanging out with my ne'er-do-well friends at DEF CON, uh…
(DIR) Post #AbCepTPA5Q8qfmqM1g by redlilrascal@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T18:04:30Z
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@tek i personally respect intellectual property rights by opening up btdig.com and typing in super mario wonder. Then i play melee from vimms lair on slippi :^)
(DIR) Post #AbCj1hbPWeTpzuex4y by slothrop@chaos.social
2023-10-27T18:51:31Z
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@tek To the best of my knowledge, I’d say that in this clause, “respect” is to be interpreted as “not knowingly breach in a meaningful way”.This would mean sticking to the letter of the law in your professional dealings. (IANAL, IANYL, not a US person, not even strictly a computing professional)
(DIR) Post #AbCjFFPl7mH0d1fVXU by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T18:53:57Z
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@slothrop I think you're probably right, but I wish a computing organization would be better at, you know, using unambiguous wording. 😀 Like, “abide by laws concerning” would have cleared that right up.
(DIR) Post #AbCjna6Cj4e6cttS8e by slothrop@chaos.social
2023-10-27T19:00:06Z
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@tek Yeah 🙄The rightsholder lobbies constantly ask everyone to “respect” copyright and patents. And they seem to mean “not actively breach”.I figure there’s no need to be more catholic than the pope.
(DIR) Post #AbCkHnKU6HyMLZynw0 by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:05:38Z
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@slothrop That made me laugh. Yes.
(DIR) Post #AbClxuZvdem4wjqmga by drandrewv2@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:24:28Z
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@tek I think ‘respect’ can be read in two ways in this context: i reckon the code of ethics is really interested in your professional BEHAVIOUR, not your FEELINGS about it.Let’s face it, part of what a professional body does is to say “here’s what you can expect from one of our members.”In this case, what a employer/engager wants to know is are you willing and able to keep them on the right side of this principle even if we all know it’s wank.
(DIR) Post #AbCmJ3et4giLBlFkvY by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:28:17Z
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@drandrewv2 That's a good take.
(DIR) Post #AbCmM6wpIkMeG86Fd2 by CatherineFlick@mastodon.me.uk
2023-10-27T19:28:47Z
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@tek hello! I largely wrote that section of the Code and it definitely gives public good wiggle room to take into account abandonware etc. The key aspect is to weigh up the public good component against the protection mechanism. The 1998 code was far more strict about it. Also see section 2.3 that allows you to challenge unethical laws.
(DIR) Post #AbCmckrAgn2MfROJ5k by CatherineFlick@mastodon.me.uk
2023-10-27T19:31:49Z
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@tek the paragraph after the one you quoted allows for this. “Both custom and the law recognize that some exceptions to a creator’s control of a work are necessary for the public good. Computing professionals should not unduly oppose reasonable uses of their intellectual works.“
(DIR) Post #AbCmsIxYB4vomNn0s4 by CatherineFlick@mastodon.me.uk
2023-10-27T19:34:39Z
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@tek finally, all ACM members agree to abide by the Code as part of their signup, and there can be sanctions if violations are reported and found to be occurring. As the Vice President of the Committee on Professional Ethics I’d like to say I think we are pretty fair and reasonable when dealing with reported violations.
(DIR) Post #AbCmyA9podRjDbKRuq by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:35:41Z
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@CatherineFlick Oh, wow! I didn't expect to get right to the source. 😀Thanks for that clarification. Also, I love the nuance in 2.3.Unrequested feedback: I wish 1.5 were phrased like “agree to abide by laws regarding copyrights, patents, …” or similar, making clear a distinction between behavior and opinion.But all in all, I agree with the code. Also, see, some people *do* read it word for word before clicking the "I agree" button.
(DIR) Post #AbCn49hgPtxnY11DgO by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:36:46Z
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@CatherineFlick Noted and appreciated!
(DIR) Post #AbCnBMc8oW87cGrbbU by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:38:07Z
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@CatherineFlick Thank you so much for the detailed reply (and the thought and effort that obviously went into the Code).
(DIR) Post #AbCnIHiLQizqRk47Ki by CatherineFlick@mastodon.me.uk
2023-10-27T19:39:18Z
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@tek wording is extremely difficult for these things and I suspect there was a reason we didn’t phrase it the way you suggest (though I can’t remember off the top of my head why). We threw every sentence against the wall in different ways multiple times 😅 Actually looking at the wording I think we liked the flexibility of “respect” because it’s not always about laws but sometimes custom or normative expectations of behaviour (eg in some of the more obscurely licenced open source projects).
(DIR) Post #AbCnLzf6UR49cIJmDI by CatherineFlick@mastodon.me.uk
2023-10-27T19:40:01Z
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@tek my pleasure! Glad I could chat with you about it. Happy to answer any more questions if/when they appear.
(DIR) Post #AbCnYBvCjb9B79fJGi by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:42:12Z
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@CatherineFlick Fair point, and I recognize that my whining is a lot of "Monday morning quarterbacking”. It's easy enough for me to weigh in with my Great Wisdom and Cleverness™️ after the fact.That had just been stuck in my craw for a while, and what's Mastodon if not a place for us to complain unconstructively? 😀
(DIR) Post #AbCnwViEnunnRdCFQ8 by CatherineFlick@mastodon.me.uk
2023-10-27T19:46:36Z
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@tek hey it’s all good! :) glad to have helped uh, unpick your craw? 😆 or at least given some more food for craw-sticking thought. Have a great weekend. 😄
(DIR) Post #AbCoEYnE5cgOD98X3I by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:49:53Z
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Note that I already consented to the code and signed up for the ACM anyway. As others pointed out to me, ACM's a professional organization, and it's easy enough for me to say that I’ll go along with IP laws at work, even the ones with which I disagree, rather than put my employer at risk. I've always insisted on that anyway.
(DIR) Post #AbCoJaRjN0sCmpTlrc by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T19:50:47Z
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@CatherineFlick It’s successfully unpicked. Thanks, and you too!
(DIR) Post #AbCotlrqNrVqdLwnTM by urda@urda.social
2023-10-27T19:57:19Z
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@tek what about IEEE
(DIR) Post #AbCpAySCqBzuap9t9E by tek@freeradical.zone
2023-10-27T20:00:26Z
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@urda ACM's SIGs are closer to my interests.My undergrad was certified by both ACM and IEEE, though, and I've always been proud of that.
(DIR) Post #AbCpFSRRI0ZCkwwCY4 by urda@urda.social
2023-10-27T20:01:12Z
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@tek yeah I used to be IEEE and ACM myself
(DIR) Post #AbDoOig2OFauv5ZvX6 by athas@freeradical.zone
2023-10-28T07:26:28Z
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@tek I let my membership lapse when I realised I was supposed to adhere to that code. I later re-enrolled for practical reasons, but I refuse to adhere. Intellectual property law is not a question of ethics.