Post AahS4jupofuiLUyDUe by fivetonsflax@tilde.zone
(DIR) More posts by fivetonsflax@tilde.zone
(DIR) Post #AahRFuLRHWKbvFAxM0 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-12T16:33:15Z
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Thoughts on the Eben Moglen situation and how it reflects a wider problem in free software: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/68004.html
(DIR) Post #AahS4jupofuiLUyDUe by fivetonsflax@tilde.zone
2023-10-12T16:43:36Z
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@mjg59 Solid take. Thank you.
(DIR) Post #AaheWZ64pfK0LnGOB6 by slothrop@chaos.social
2023-10-12T19:02:48Z
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“When we build communities that tolerate abuse, we exclude anyone unwilling to tolerate being abused.” 💯💯💯Thanks @mjg59 !
(DIR) Post #AahgI1lWA4aopQqIu8 by jripley@mastodon.social
2023-10-12T19:20:24Z
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@mjg59 It is endlessly frustrating that to core concept of copyleft is tarnished by association with these people.
(DIR) Post #AaiCYp8TPF9GWaf5pQ by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T01:09:38Z
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it's a welcome improvement to read what you wrote as criticism to your own past, hateful and dehumanizing self. congratulations!
(DIR) Post #AaiCYqKuwShGFTUXrc by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T01:24:30Z
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@lxo I've no problem with people criticising me. But if people prioritise criticising me over responding to descriptions of someone else's abusive behaviour, it's easy to interpret that as defending that abusive behaviour. I'm sure you're not actually making excuses for Eben here, but perhaps you'd like to be explicit about that?
(DIR) Post #AaiECOI6jVQEnybCaW by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T01:41:11Z
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I'm not making excuses for Eben. I don't even know of any facts to excuse. I have seen allegations that seem quite damning, but I try not to go about destroying people's lives over unproven allegations. I shall look into them first.but I did see reason to congratulate you on your apparent change of heart, but your response makes me wonder whether I read too much into it and was too optimistic. perhaps you could be explicit on whether or not you now criticize your own past abusive, hateful and dehumanizing behavior?
(DIR) Post #AaiECPcLnjD0v34smO by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T01:42:31Z
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@lxo if you point me at specific examples I'm happy to respond
(DIR) Post #AaiFgfQlfkfSbXeOrQ by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T01:56:23Z
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how about we start with these 3:- I've seen you join the neurodivergent-intolerant lynching mobs against RMS- I've seen you celebrate getting someone fired and wishing them the consequences of being unable to afford a living- I've seen you make fun, and encourage others to make fun, of my own disability
(DIR) Post #AaiFggAUvjFOtN2v8i by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T01:59:59Z
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@lxo (1) Can you point at specific cases where *I* have abused RMS? My criticisms of him have, as far as I know, always been based on facts. (2) I have never, to the best of my knowledge, got someone fired, so I have no idea what you mean here(3) I am unaware of you having any disability, and so am unaware of any cases where I have made fun of that (let alone encouraging others to do so)
(DIR) Post #AaiHFuUnkjDjPwuFgO by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T02:17:37Z
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@lxo Oh, if for (2) you're referring to Roy? He and his wife have been victims of some sort of harassment campaign that he's blamed on me. I've provided him with evidence that it's not (eg, examples of it occurring while I'm verifiably teaching students), but he's persisted. I don't know who's behind the harassment and I condemn it wholeheartedly and hope the perpetrator suffers appropriate consequences.
(DIR) Post #AaiIKi5VPe5eKwvXJA by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T02:22:16Z
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(1) nah, not facts, the only fact was that you displayed cluelessness about neurodivergence by suggesting that neuroatipicity is a binary thing. you joined and celebrated attacks of intolerance based on word-twisting narratives and false accusations, along with others who now bring forth the allegations that you wrote about. going by that alone, I'd take the allegations as lies and exaggerations, but I'm not going to judge based on that alone(2) I am sorry, I misremembered. you "only" celebrated that the person got fired and wished them the consequences of being unable to afford a living(3) there's no need to be aware of a disability for making fun of it to be cool. there's only one circumstances I know of in which you made fun of me, but if there are so many that you can't pinpoint it, that doesn't make things look any better
(DIR) Post #AaiIKixOBJBx248ZIO by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T02:29:33Z
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@lxo (1) As I said, if you can point at specific examples of things I said or did I'm happy to revisit them. I don't recognise the scenario you're describing.(2) I don't think *anyone* should be in a position to be unable to afford a living. I think it's darkly ironic that Roy got fired for criticising his own employer, but I don't wish him destitution.(3) I'm sorry, I really don't know which case you're talking about. Like I said, if you can point at specific examples, I can revisit.
(DIR) Post #AaiJZo1Xiz732rprlI by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T02:40:24Z
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nah, I really didn't mean to coopt the thread or to relitigate those issues. I really made a mistake thinking your criticism reflected a change of heart. your current wish towards Roy is indeed such an improvement, but ISTM you still dehumanize and direct hate towards others, which to me is exactly the behavior you criticize in your blog post. so I made a mistake in trying to read your post as non-hypocritical, that's all.
(DIR) Post #AaiJZos0Zv51faNlXU by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T02:43:38Z
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@lxo If you present such accusations without evidence, doesn't this fall into your own definition of abuse? I'm more than happy to discuss specifics, but if you're unwilling to point at them then this seems difficult. I am genuinely happy to explain why I've said certain things or to apologise if I realise that they don't meet the standards I hold others to.
(DIR) Post #AaiKhfXtELOL1NHLyS by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T02:52:40Z
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it really doesn't, the abuse is not about not bringing forth evidence that one has, it's about making knowingly false accusations. anyway, I'm not here to convince you or anyone. I was just happy you'd got less intolerant, and I'm still happy about that, because there was visible improvement, just not quite as much as I misread at first. way to go, but still a long way to go.
(DIR) Post #AaiKhgOM5HMJe5pFke by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T02:56:08Z
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@lxo I can absolutely promise that I have never knowingly made false accusations. I find the concept repugnant. Every single thing I say about anyone else is something I 100% believe to be true. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll gladly apologise.
(DIR) Post #AaiMnMttfHogqAPy9A by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T03:08:25Z
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well, if that is true, there's something to be said about allowing yourself to believe very damning but false accusations, and acting destructively on them before (or without) checking that they're true. this is not about moglen, whom I know very little about, but about (1) the lynching mob you joined against someone I know very well. but I see there's some miscommunication here, there are so many different potential referrents to "abuse" in this thread that it got me confused. wishing someone to starve, making fun of disabilities, and joining lynching mobs are all dehumanizing behaviors, that then justify other repugnant behaviors towards the dehumanized target. that's not cool, and I hope you'll agree.
(DIR) Post #AaiMnO5dF8nWWqur4q by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T03:19:27Z
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@lxo As far as I know I have never expressed a desire that someone starve, attempted to make fun of disabilities, or engaged in any criticism of someone that I did not believe was 100% factual. Like I said, if you point at examples, I can either apologise or explain why I believe my behaviour was based on true beliefs.
(DIR) Post #AaiQjcG91EJn8KI3hQ by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:03:45Z
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@lxo Actually, let me frame that another way. People who know me well would look at what you said and conclude you were either mistaken, misled, or knowingly making false claims about me. Were they to do so, I feel like you'd appreciate the opportunity to provide an explanation for why you believe what you say.
(DIR) Post #AaiRei22EIRDXgumBM by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T04:07:44Z
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you hoped nobody would hire him, which is just a different way of saying the same thing. you made fun of a disability without knowing it was a disability, but making fun is bad enough, even if a minor thing in the grand scheme of things. joining a dehumanization and character assassination campaign was not cool either, even if you believed the fabricated accusations. heck, even if the person were actually guilty of any of the allegations in any of the various rounds of escalation, none of them would justify public lynching. it's just not cool, and it's hard for me not to see the pattern of injustice and hypocrisy for the alleged sake of inclusion and tolerance. that really gets to me.
(DIR) Post #AaiReivgtMxQKIxDvs by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:14:08Z
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@lxo (1) Given the context, I intended it to be clear that I meant that I hoped nobody in this specific industry would hire him given his toxic personality traits. I hope he is able to find a fulfilling career in an environment where he is less likely to attack and demean his coworkers.
(DIR) Post #AaiRnlC1qUlhx8uB96 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:14:48Z
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@lxo (2) I genuinely do not know what you're referring to when you claim that I made fun of a disability. There may have been a miscommunication of some sort. Can you point me to the specific incident?
(DIR) Post #AaiRz1NrzKynLzoUVc by notimetoplay@elekk.xyz
2023-10-13T04:15:45Z
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@mjg59 Gods, we techies are a horrible bunch and have been for the longest time.
(DIR) Post #AaiS9Dp0bGDApBN5YO by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:17:27Z
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@lxo (3) I do not believe that the campaign to encourage the FSF to distance itself from RMS was a dhumanisation campaign, and I do not believe that the accusations were fabricated. I also *strongly* disagree with the use of the term "lynching", which generally refers to racist murder.
(DIR) Post #AaiSZolpqcTowrZL2u by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:24:31Z
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@lxo (addendum): Roy has knowingly made multiple false claims about me, up to and including that I have engaged in criminal activity. If your objection is to members of our community falsely attacking other members of our community, why are you singling me out without being equally critical of him?
(DIR) Post #AaiUpaWulHjLK7Emvo by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:49:37Z
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@lxo Eg: (referring to me, from witin the past hour):Oct 13 05:24:39 <schestowitz>Gulagboy, the hmanitarian pervertOct 13 05:24:45 <schestowitz>(he hates women too)Oct 13 05:25:00 <schestowitz>because they reject him romantically
(DIR) Post #AaiUx5iLDYAK4D9yng by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:49:44Z
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@lxo And:Oct 13 05:36:20 <techrights-news>This is why Moglen lives in an expensive place in New York and Gulagboy has been relegated to living in some shack in the woods not far from Reno (he cannot afford San Francisco or a real home anymore). Nobody would hire liars and charlatans when hard facts are exposed for all to see...
(DIR) Post #AaiV56l1DscFcREdTU by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T04:51:22Z
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@lxo These are just false, and anyone who knows me well would be able to testify to that. Is your argument actually against my behaviour, or just against who my behaviour is targeted against?
(DIR) Post #AaiW0yAZJJNzmPmBnc by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T04:58:46Z
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(1) that's IMHO an improvement over "I'm unable to extend that generosity"(2) by requesting me to come out WRT an embarrassing disability so as to satisfy your curiosity you're doing unto me the same thing for which you're piling on moglen. not cool(3) I'm surprised that you believed those fabricated accusations; other drafters of that hate letter have admitted to exaggerations and word-twisting. the whole thing, from different perceptions to pushing for ostracism amounts to intolerance to neurodivergent behaviors, weaponized to advance various other goals. accusing, fake-judging, condemning and mob-punishing over the victim's neurodivergence rather than ethnicity is not quite as cool as you suggest.(addendum) that sounds like whataboutism. I don't know the facts WRT the alleged criminal activity you engaged in, so I'm not going there. I'm not singling you out by responding to you in a public conversation you started and insisted on, without my bringing in entirely unrelated allegations that I'm not even familiar with. whatever you and he are doing to each other and your victims, whatever israel and hamas are doing to each other and their victims, whatever nato and russia are doing to each other and their victims, it doesn't belong in this conversation, that I started to congratulate you and express my appreciation for an improvement I'd noticed. alas, I was mostly mistaken, and it derailed.
(DIR) Post #AaiW0z9tdIRUqcTAOG by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T05:02:58Z
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@lxo If it seems I made fun of a disability that I was unaware of and which you're unwilling to talk about, I'm sorry - it wasn't my intention and I have no wish whatsoever to attempt to hurt you on that basis. I can't attempt to justify it or explain it without a pointer to what happened, but please know that that was not what I wanted to communicate. It's not a matter of curiosity, it's a genuine desire to ensure I never do so again. I'd be happy to have that conversation privately.
(DIR) Post #AaiZOPHywjmAPe6xcm by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T05:29:26Z
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it was intention to make fun of something I did, that was clear enough, but as I said before, it was a minor thing. in itself, it was no biggie, but its being part of a pattern of intolerance, dehumanization and mob aggression made it stand out to me.I have no desire to revisit those hateful posts, but I blogged about it shortly after that episode, maybe the date will help you locate it: 2020-02-27
(DIR) Post #AaiZOPxSSWx8UHW5Gy by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T05:40:52Z
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@lxo If it was the criticism of the "Free software 9/11" post, I can promise that the intent of the criticism there was purely towards the content of the post, not any broader aspect of you
(DIR) Post #AaibesyeX9dz1y3VkO by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T05:49:20Z
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you got the timeframe, but look for something you found hilarious rather than disagreeable
(DIR) Post #AaibettN8H0vrsao9g by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T06:05:43Z
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@lxo Your email response to it? Sorry I've dug through various archives but I'm not finding it. I really don't want to push you to talk about stuff you don't want to so I'm not going to press on this point, and if it seemed like I was making fun of a disability then I'm sorry - it was either not my intention or I was wrong to do so and genuinely apologise for it.
(DIR) Post #AaiftUoh2o9mG4cSjQ by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T06:45:18Z
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email was where you observed the behavior you made fun of, but you may not even know that I saw your making fun of it elsewhere. it was public, but not a forum I participate in. and it's not like it seemed, it's like you were, but I have no reason to think you thought of it as a disability. heck, I don't even have a name for this fuzzy perception of time in the past, by which I perceive things as "just the other day" or "a long time ago", having little clue as to exactly when things happened. it leads to embarrassing mistakes when I go by otherwise faulty memory, and, as I said, I didn't make much of it in itself, but making fun of it in public in a gang didn't fit with the notions of promoting inclusive, tolerant and respectful behaviors. it was rather cheap, cruel and hateful.see, it doesn't matter whether you perceived it as a disability. ridiculing someone for a mistake, for ignorance, for a disability, for a different cultural background, is not any cooler than doing so for sexual identity or orientation, for ethnicity... the difference is that some of these are more socially tolerated than others.same goes for endorsing a cancellation campaign over intolerance to characteristics related with disabilities, and incomprehension of differences in perceptions of context, meaning, and intent. it's no less hateful just because you don't know or don't understand enough of these things to know better. there are terms for that: prejudice and intolerance
(DIR) Post #AaiftVhzjCOP1aUcvg by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T06:53:34Z
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@lxo I'm afraid I still don't recognise the situation, and can't explicitly respond to it. If there's ever a situation where you'd feel comfortable talking to me about it then I'd be happy to, but I understand if that doesn't feel comfortable.
(DIR) Post #AajzDVbvtTN0nfronI by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-13T06:51:34Z
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as for your apology, I appreciate and accept it.
(DIR) Post #AajzDWPCwGmlGUvAbA by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-13T22:04:50Z
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@lxo Oh, one thing I should add - if you're concerned about the lack of corroboration regarding Eben's behaviour, you know people who should be able to confirm or deny my claims about what happened at Libreplanet 2017.
(DIR) Post #AakKWOI1R51GdLOn8S by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-10-14T01:58:19Z
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thanks. I'm pretty sure I was there on that year. I even watched his speech, but I surely didn't have the context to read between the lines what you did.
(DIR) Post #AakKWP5ITsR16AS8wK by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-14T02:02:39Z
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@lxo it wasn't during his speech, it happened at the end of the conference in a hallway
(DIR) Post #Aale9Kuu0DW5kmpS2i by jeroen@secluded.ch
2023-10-14T17:17:33Z
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@mjg59 68004, I see you are in Motorola territory of article numbers ;)