Post Aaayb9FT0C2ebiOmK8 by GavinChait@wandering.shop
(DIR) More posts by GavinChait@wandering.shop
(DIR) Post #AaXDsYBAUKm5E82RqC by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-07T18:19:15.006019Z
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Yigal Levin explains the Hamas factor in #Israel:> Ukrainian friends who write that the border was breached by "bums in flip-flops": Hamas, as well as Islamic Jihad and especially Hezbollah are all allies or proxies of Iran. #Iran arms and sponsors these groups. Iran also prepares them. The war is with Iran, not with the "bums". Saying that the war is only with some Hamas (or other groups) is like saying that Ukraine has been fighting only with the "LDNR" since 2014 - that the large Ukrainian army could not "cope" with some bums from the LDNR.> Remember how angry you were all these years that the Russian factor was silenced in the international arena, how angry you were when they said that it was a "civil war" and Ukrainians were fighting some separatists and that was it, and Moscow had nothing to do with it.> Iran's military potential is large, it is a formidable and serious enemy, surpassing us in many parameters - for example, in the size of the armed forces, the presence of all sorts of groups and militias, banal in terms of resources and population, in missile potential. The militants are armed with Iranian drones and missiles, among other things.> Israel has been engaged in a limited war with Iran for many decades. Tehran's goal is the destruction of Israel. Now we can observe the escalation of this war. I once again urge my Ukrainian friends not to think that these are some spherical bum fighters in a vacuum.Source: https://t.me/yigal_levin/57040
(DIR) Post #AaXIlHAPq9NsCz2MxU by ottona@mastodon.social
2023-10-07T18:55:14Z
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@kravietz thanks for bringing that up. this is precisely why i was so surprised about israel's merely indifferent stance since RU's aggression: iran's on a rampage since then due to RU's heavy dependence on ammo & mil technology. obviously, that'd tickle down onto hamas, an organization directly supported and maintained by the mullah regime - and here we are.
(DIR) Post #AaYP6Y0X0rxlhvALtw by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-07T20:52:52Z
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@kravietz Complaining Iran supports Palestinians is a little like Russia complaining the US supports Ukraine. All Russia has to do to end this is lift the occupation & withdraw their forces & settlers from occupied territory. Israel's task is the same, made harder through 60 years of occupation, ethnic cleansing & colonisation. Iran obviously has their own motivations for supporting the Palestinians, but you can hardly fault Hamas for accepting that support, anymore than you can fault Ukraine.
(DIR) Post #AaYP6krnCfhHaaB3aK by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-10-08T07:22:09Z
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@GavinChait @kravietz Thank you for the Tankie misinformation.Whilst no side can be painted as completely without blame, the fact of the matter is that Hamas is sworn to the destruction of Israel.If Hamas stops fighting Israel there can be peace. If Israel stops fighting Hamas, Israel ceases to exist.Goodbye.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67039975
(DIR) Post #AaYPJZfu7pYwdvjHvc by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T08:02:07.640550Z
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@GavinChaitGranted that Hamas and Iran's officially declares goals is complete eradication of Israel and Jews from the face of the Earth, what exactly extent of Israel's "withdrawal" do you believe would satisfy them?
(DIR) Post #AaYWX3lWGB3NPXjWVs by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T09:16:32Z
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@kravietz So *Palestinians* deserve no human rights until *Iran* changes its policies? It doesn't matter if Hamas are ethno-fascist religious zealots. So is the Israeli government. Palestinians still deserve the same rights Israelis take for granted. Or do only people whose politics one agrees with deserve liberty?
(DIR) Post #AaYWX4aDDhbRwlS0Wm by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T09:22:59.189487Z
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@GavinChaitHamas is a Palestinian party, for your information, whose official objective is eradication of Israel and Jews.
(DIR) Post #AaYcUthnI8g7M8LKBk by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T09:36:43Z
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@kravietz So what. Palestinians are people. Hamas is not their elected representative. It is military group that oppresses Gazans and imposes their rule upon them. Collective punishment is a war crime under the Geneva Convention, yet Israel imposes collective punishment on Gaza and Palestinians because of Hamas. Unless & until Palestinians have their freedom restored, Gaza will continue to be an open air prison & Israelis will need to be their jailers in perpetuity. That's how Apartheid works.
(DIR) Post #AaYcUuRAZQyTcrZYum by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T10:29:50.497124Z
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@GavinChait> Hamas is not their elected representative.Except it is:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestin...
(DIR) Post #AaYmgEYf6KSWky7Erg by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T11:50:35Z
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@kravietz 2006, huh? That's how democracy works? One election, one time? How about Ukraine ... I remember at the outset of the Russian invasion, the pretext was that Ukrainians didn't deserve freedom because the Azov Brigade were Nazis. My argument is consistent, & continues to be: it does not matter. Either human rights apply even to those who deny your humanity, or you do not believe in human rights. Instead, you believe in privilege. Palestinians deserve human rights no matter their politics.
(DIR) Post #AaYmgFMI7o9rEtKsDo by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T12:23:55.844428Z
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@GavinChait @kwj Firstly, I 100% agree with you that Palestinians deserve human rights just as everyone else. Still, Hamas - whose official objective, once again, is to eradicate Israel and Jews from the face of the Earth - was in 2006 elected by Palestinians.Hamas was not installed by Israel, so the presence of Hamas and its further fight for power in Palestine is not responsibility of Israel. Quite the opposite, Israel was always fighting Hamas - who I guess we all agree is oppressor of Palestinians and war monger.At the same time Israel has been always under pressure not to fight Hamas too decisively because Hamas was part of Palestinian Autonomy Authority and was treated by other international players, including many UN countries, as legitimate authority of Palestine. And Hamas never gave up its officially declared goal, which is to eradicate Israel and Jews from the face of the Earth. And it has been executing its plans decisively by, among others, stealing majority of the funds intended for Palestine’s well-being and using it to fund terrorism and arms.Which is logical, because - and I will repeat it ad nauseam - Hamas declared goal is to eradicate Israel and Jews from the face of the Earth.Yet, organisation with such a goal is still being considered part of legitimate authority of Palestine by many UN countries, whose only advice is 1) give PAA (=Hamas) more money, 2) call for peaceful dialogue. How Hamas understands “dialogue” you can see in the example of Palestinian journalist Rami Aman who was arrested by Hamas immediately after Amnesty International activist and RT journalist Hind Khoudary snitched on him for… calling for dialogue with Israel.[^1]I hope at this point you can clearly see the ultimate hypocrisy of international community tolerating an organisation that is as openly genocidal as Hamas, and absurdity of counting on it to establish “peaceful dialogue” rather than simply helping Israel get rid of Hamas and allow Palestinians live their lives as part of the Autonomy. That’s just like asking Russia for “peace in Ukraine” when Russia’s openly declared goal is physical extermination of Ukrainian identity, just like Hamas goal is extermination of Jewish identity.While I don’t deny presence of Jewish radical nationalism and various forms of discrimination against Arabs from their side, the official position of the state of Israel is that there’s plenty of Arabs living normally in Israel, and the whole Palestine receives electricity, gas and food from Israel. There’s nothing preventing the normalisation of relations with Palestinians from the side of Israel - but on the Palestinian side it’s Hamas that prevents it at all costs, because they made a whole business model on the continuous war.[^1]: https://www.algemeiner.com/2020/04/12/amnesty-international-employee-denounced-for-getting-gaza-peace-activist-arrested-for-virtual-meeting-with-israelis/
(DIR) Post #AaYnHuKEm2vn0hKhhQ by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T12:30:45.418242Z
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@GavinChait And adding to what I wrote above, here’s a great piece from the article linked by @kwj about the 2007 power grab by Hamas, especially this section:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)#External_involvementAs you can see, there were numerous initiatives on both Palestinian and international side to get rid of “rejectionists” (that is - Hamas) which involved all kind of overt and covert support for the Palestinian authorities ready to cooperate with Israel. What was the reaction of some international community calling themselves “pro-Palestinian”? Of course, criticism of “external involvement”, the Palestine Papers leaks and public rants about how UK and USA are “meddling with internal affairs of Palestine”, trying to get rid of “democratically elected Hamas”. So what is happening in Palestine today, all these hundreds of civilians killed and suffering on both sides, is 100% responsibility of the people who then defended Hamas, when their main political goal was eradication of Jews.
(DIR) Post #AaYnYspTad01IE2VRg by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T12:33:47.742648Z
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@GavinChait The case of Ukraine has no similarity to what is going on in Palestine. What Russia said about Ukraine was 100% bullshit, starting from “discrimination of Russian-speaking population” and ending on the “neo-Nazis”. The only reason for Russian war in 2014 was colonial and neo-imperial, everything they said was simply a pretext. In case of Israel and Palestine it’s completely different - Hamas officially declared goals are genocidal, and they are physically executing them by means of terrorism. Nothing even remotely similar happened from Ukraine, who simply wanted to live peacefully and join EU.
(DIR) Post #AaZE5MWJKhKPS7DrtI by polyna@toot.community
2023-10-08T17:15:49Z
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@kravietz @GavinChait Actually, it does have many similarities. Except, uhmmmm… it’s Israel that is Ukraine here. ‘Discrimination of Russian-speaking population’ is a direct parallel of the false ‘apartheid’ canard, and the ‘neo-Nazi’ thing has many similarities to the ‘Israel acts totally like Nazis’ big lie.
(DIR) Post #AaZE7PhMUGd3tAMzFQ by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T17:31:22.971588Z
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@polyna☝️100% this@GavinChait
(DIR) Post #AaZEQfeTOflwryCXVw by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T12:54:12Z
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@kravietz Except Israel's is an Apartheid project, & learned from the Apartheid regime about dividing those you oppress. ZA deliberately split anti-Apartheid forces, triggering a civil war between the ANC and IFP. Now, I'm not suggesting Israel funds Hamas, but they did deliberately delegitimize Fatah, creating the power vacuum & despair filled by Hamas. As for colonialism? The West Bank is being ethnically cleansed to make way for illegal settlements & annexation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories#International_law_violations
(DIR) Post #AaZEQgPcZNUDECGC0G by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T12:58:53Z
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@kravietz As for Palestinian Israelis having equal rights? No such thing. Israel has Apartheid's equivalent of the population registration act, mixed marriages act, etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheidWould you deny rights to captive Russian genocidaires? Torture & violate them? Or do you accord them human rights. Not because *they *deserve them, but because *you *do?So, I take you back to my original position: would you deny human rights to Palestinians as collective punishment for their politics?
(DIR) Post #AaZEQhHVL2aVvJTDzU by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T13:24:30Z
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@kravietz This is not a symmetric battle. Israel will put Hamas back in its prison. It will collectively punish Gaza's people, obliterating schools, hospitals, homes. Cut electricity. Isolate them.This cycle will erupt again, because hopeless youth see no loss in throwing their lives against artillery, wielding knives against machine guns.Only Israel can end this cycle. Palestinian politics are a mere excuse for what Israelis want. Their land, & unaccountable power for its political elite.
(DIR) Post #AaZEQiFPkIVgv7V4N6 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T17:34:48.754849Z
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@GavinChaitHow can Israel "end this cycle" with a Palestinian party in existence, whose declared goal is eradication of Israel and Jews exists? Can you elaborate? 🙄
(DIR) Post #AaZHgLYoACtn3LiZfs by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T17:48:50Z
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@kravietz How could the National Party end Apartheid with the ANC & IFP fighting an armed struggle & civil war? They unbanned the ANC & invited the exiles home. Mandela walked free.This isn't a gotcha or some sort of logical conundrum. It's a job. There are trained negotiators who can do this stuff, but it starts with the oppressor accepting the humanity of the oppressed.Until that happens, the cycle of oppression continues.And, if not now, when?
(DIR) Post #AaZHgMOv2SaBey6Bto by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T18:11:18.492329Z
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@GavinChaitNelson Mandela, ANC, 1990:> The ANC has never been a political party. It was formed as a parliament of the African people. Right from the start, up to now, the ANC is a coalition, if you want, of people of various political affiliations. Some will support free enterprise, others socialism. Some are conservatives, others are liberals. We are united solely by our determination to oppose racial oppression. That is the only thing that unites us.Do you now see any potential differences between the program of ANC and that of Hamas? 🤔
(DIR) Post #AaZIPvCAWLwubUrOjY by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T17:58:19Z
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@polyna @kravietz I've never accused the Israelis of acting like Nazis. Their policies, ethnic cleansing, illegal settlements, denial of rights to Palestinians - including Palestinians with Israeli citizenship - is Apartheid. And you don't have to take my word for it. Haaretz directly blames Netanyahu's right-wing zealotry for Hamas' actions: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-10-08/ty-article-opinion/netanyahu-bears-responsibility/0000018b-0b9d-d8fc-adff-6bfd1c880000
(DIR) Post #AaZRgkOUpcsdcBiyNk by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T18:20:10Z
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@kravietz It does not matter. It is up to the oppressor to recognise the humanity of the oppressed, unconditionally.The PAC was unbanned with the ANC. In 1993, they bombed the Heidelberg Tavern in Cape Town. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_Tavern_massacre It was a favourite of mine, with great live music. Except, I wasn't there. It was varsity holidays & I was home.The PAC stood in the 1994 elections with a manifesto calling for "whites" to be cleansed from ZA. Humanity doesn't have to be earned, just recognised.
(DIR) Post #AaZRglFfdvPmH6bRGS by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T18:25:20Z
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@kravietz You seem to want this to be "clean". That somehow Palestinians should be "noble" in their oppression. Gracious as they are humiliated & abused. Why?Oppression says more about the oppressor than the oppressed. Israel is a worse society, brutal, depressed, poorer, less dynamic, because they are committed to being an oppressor. Apartheid was ruinously expensive.There's nothing Palestinians can do - good or ill - to make them stop. As MLK said, "A riot is the language of the unheard."
(DIR) Post #AaZRglyKxr8yVdV6sy by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T20:03:23.455024Z
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@GavinChait You yourself separated Hamas from Palestinians. I’m OK with that. What I’m not OK with that is postulating that Israelis must recognise Hamas, whose primary political goal is extermination of Israel and Jews. Interestingly, you don’t call Hamas to give up on this goal - or Palestinians to give up on support for Hamas.
(DIR) Post #AaZbI9B4Y7OCmWM02q by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T20:45:32Z
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@kravietz It's impossible to assess Hamas support amongst Palestinians. Neither is it useful to link a peace process to Palestinians giving up their position before negotiations even start.Israel are the oppressor. Only they can start a peace process & must do so unconditionally. Or, if any condition, a general cease fire between all parties for the duration.If the ZA experience is a guide, include all legitimate parties in negotiations. After that, hope... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotiations_to_end_apartheid_in_South_Africa
(DIR) Post #AaZbI9u5qjOz29PxDc by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T21:51:02.366101Z
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@GavinChaitExcept peace negotiations of Israel with Palestine happened for dozens of times already. You seem to ignore — or simply are unaware of — everything that happened since 1940's — UN, Arab League, Oslo Accord, Taba etc. Instead you come up with an absurdly patronizing advice "now hug unconditionally", while ignoring the non-negotiable position of those Palestinians for whom the only acceptable solution is the physical eradication of Israel and Jews. Non-negotiable to the extent that they jail, torture and kill those among them who do support peace talks with Israel, just like happened with Rami Aman. And sorry, you can't blame Israel on this violence of Palestinians against Palestinians, or Hamas theft of humanitarian help.
(DIR) Post #AaZbIB6tMdEYm8Pgo4 by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-08T20:48:43Z
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@kravietz And to add a little ... during the '94 elections, the ANC's dominance was far from obvious. They were important, certainly, but the PAC was considered almost as popular. Think of the PAC as Hamas to the ANC's Fatah. Instead, PAC support collapsed to the point where they struggle to even get a seat in parliament. The same could be true in Palestine, but it's impossible to know until after peace & democracy are restored.
(DIR) Post #AaZbOKU7QFCFaVD7PE by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-08T21:52:07.834575Z
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@GavinChaitANC position was simple: stop discrimination of black Africans. Hamas position is equally simple: all Jews must die. How do you even dare to compare these?
(DIR) Post #AaaMfUa3ppvLfTfxOS by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T05:46:13Z
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@kravietz These arguments were interminable during the end of Apartheid as well. "Robert McBride bombed Magoo's Bar, how can we be expected to negotiate with terrorists?" But the ANC could argue the same thing. The security apparatus committed awful atrocities. Or corruption? Dude, ZA?And don't forget all this was triggered by Netanyahu forming an alliance with violent right-wing extremists because they promised to protect him from corruption charges.
(DIR) Post #AaaMfVK94UmryPElE0 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T06:41:50.330595Z
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@GavinChaitSorry, once again you're mixing two things: terrorist methods, which were used by many independence movements who were later amnestied as part of peace deals, with genocidal political program implemented by terrorist methods. You can strike any deal you like with Hamas but they won't abandon their ultimate goal — extermination of Jews. You can try to convince some members of Hamas to give up that goal, which is what has happened in the past... but because of the absolutist goal, the radical wing will only add the moderates to their kill list, which has also happened many times in the past.The goals are everything — you can give independence fighters what they want, or you can at least offer them a broad spectrum of middle ground proposals.What middle ground you can find with people whose goal is the physical extermination of every Jew, or Tutsi, or Bosniak? Offer them to only kill every second, or what? What's your idea of negotiation here?
(DIR) Post #AaaMfW9C0hcWWj7WnA by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T05:53:02Z
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@kravietz I'm sure you could spend all day telling me why it's impossible without much exertion. South Africans are geniuses at that game too.Israel feels trapped in the 1980s of Apartheid ZA. Israelis in the wealthy, neat suburbs of my childhood, & Palestinians in the chaotic, deprived communities of my youth, all watched over by soldiers & signs warning of bombs.Palestinians are no more monolithic than Israelis. There's more than Hamas in Palestine. What's your alternative? Keep shooting?
(DIR) Post #AaaMfYAKVRiampfSqG by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T06:23:32Z
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@kravietz Some research on the drug trade. Why are illicit drugs so strong? US Prohibition data showed where punishment for drinking beer was the same as vodka, people drank vodka. Same for cocaine.If a 10-year-old throwing stones at an Israeli soldier is to have his ankles pulverised & his family made homeless when it's bulldozed "because he's a terrorist" then may as well fire rockets.If *everyone* is a terrorist, & you don't negotiate with terrorists, you just get more violent terrorists.
(DIR) Post #AaaNmF268ikzQdZWoC by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T06:54:20.099369Z
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@GavinChaitAs I wrote in the beginning of the thread, there's also some extremists on the Israeli side (Baruch Goldstein) and policies of Netanyahu have probably only contributed to that, but there *were* plenty of deals already made, which is precisely why we at all talk about Palestinian Autonomy and PA Authority in the first place! All of them were however always broken, not by random bulldozer raids from IDF — because they're never random — but by Hamas staging new attacks in order to execute their absolutist goals of extermination of all Jews. Hamas perceives any form of peace as "normalization of Israel", this is literally how they call it, and actively prevents any peace, which is — logically — why we have no peace.
(DIR) Post #Aaab9Ft4QavE8veaCu by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T09:24:07.839925Z
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@GavinChait As I said, deescalation has been tried many times with Palestine. Last time on large scale it happened in 2005:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_GazaWere you even aware that Israel forcibly removed Israeli settlers from Gaza? No? Neither I was, but then I started digging into detailed timeline. What happened next, you know very well yourself because you linked the article on the events that happened next - in 2006 Hamas won elections in Palestine and then in 2007 captured all Gaza, killing all opposition who opted for normalisation of relations with Israel.Are you surprised now that Netanyahu hard-line policy gained traction after what happened then?
(DIR) Post #AaaiixKxZdQ4iNfYBc by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T10:48:56.221646Z
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@GavinChait Yes, they tried, many times. It was always sabotaged by Hamas. Right now there’s full-scale Hamas war against Israel, consistent with Hamas goal of physical extermination of all Jews and state of Israel. Any more useful advice apart from “try again”?
(DIR) Post #Aaap0tU5EjfphdsCsS by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T10:54:24Z
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@kravietz Why do you think they fail?People with the power to end oppression & violence are also people with blood on their hands. A peace process can only be negotiated by people with the most to lose from the accountability which follows any successful resolution of that peace process.It can be facilitated by good people, but good people don't have the power to decide on a lasting peace. Good people do not fear it. Which is why it is not easy.What's your alternative? *Not* try again?
(DIR) Post #Aaap0ubD5iy7A2DPcm by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T10:57:36Z
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@kravietz As I said earlier, negotiation under these conditions is *job*. People become professionals at this. It takes compromise. It takes offers of amnesty to some truly evil people who did terrible things. It takes payments. It takes an acceptance that not everyone gets restorative justice.But, in the end, unless the people with the power to decide to end oppression & violence decide to support the process, it will fail.So you try again.
(DIR) Post #Aaap0ven9tQaRQtmqW by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T11:59:24.878428Z
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@GavinChait The problem here is than an any negotiation is possible exclusively if positions of both parties have anything in common and the parties are willing to converge them towards a negotiated consensus. In this particular case the position of one party is that it wants to survive, and the position of the other party is simply extermination of the first.Even in case of Republic of South Africa you admit that “extermination of whites” was goal set by an extreme minority of the black movement, while the majority - including ANC and MLK - simply called for equal rights and cessation of discrimination.Yet, you conveniently ignored the case of genocides committed by Hutus and Serbs. You simply don’t want to discuss edge cases that don’t fit your “just discuss, and if it doesn’t work, discuss again” narrative. Because this is precisely what international community was doing in case of Serbia in 1990’s and in case of Russia since 2014 - they discussed, while the violent, genocidal forces simply executed their declared goal undisturbed: that is, exterminated the people they declared they want to exterminate.You want to grant an amnesty to Hamas fighters based on the assumption they will abandon their goal of extermination of Jews. But this already happened in the past, many times, and they didn’t, which is consistent with their declared goal. You want to negotiate, and grant them more amnesty… and as they start slaughter of Jewish population you just call for more negotiations, while the slaughter goes on?
(DIR) Post #AaarGQAiBfS1KkLOF6 by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T12:08:20Z
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@kravietz As we speak, Israel has announced a complete siege of Gaza. "There is no electricity, there is no food, there is no water, there is no fuel," against a civilian population of 2 million people. This is collective punishment & is a war crime.I'm not ignoring anything, & Hamas isn't the only party to negotiation. Doing "something" for the sake of it isn't anymore helpful than doing "nothing" because the goal seems unreachable.You haven't answered me. What's your alternative to trying?
(DIR) Post #AaarGR2axKYK1rYQEK by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T12:24:16.672271Z
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@GavinChait There is no electricity, there is no food, there is no water, there is no fuel,And this is a very good point which highlights that 100% of these were previously supplied to Palestine by Israel.As for your question, there’s no negotiation with Hamas, specifically due to their their non-negotiable position (extermination of Jews and state of Israel). I don’t know how to put that in simpler words: if someone’s genocidal position is declared as non-negotiable by themselves, you don’t negotiate.The solution therefore is detainment of Hamas leadership and negotiation with PAA and other organisations representing Palestinians not aligned with Hamas. The cards for this however aren’t held by Israel, UN or EU, but they are held by Hamas supporters such as Iran and Russia.
(DIR) Post #AaasbJyiVdxEA0GO9o by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T12:33:14Z
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@kravietz Supplied by Israel because of an embargo designed to ensure this type of control. That happens to be one of the things Hamas has been demanding. More economic autonomy.The conditions that produce support for Hamas don't disappear just because you exclude them from peace negotiations. And everything is negotiable.Seriously, Hamas are not uniquely extreme. The PAC chanted "One Settler, One Bullet" or sang "Shoot the Boer" right up to the '94 elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Settler,_One_Bullet until
(DIR) Post #AaasbKtn5Rbl10xy7M by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T12:39:41.967665Z
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@GavinChait Are you aware of the fact that only in September Israel has… further eased work for Palestinians inside Israel? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-reopens-gaza-crossings-lets-palestinians-back-work-after-two-weeks-2023-09-28/To which Hamas responded with what exactly - welcoming it? No, quite the opposite: starting the war.Why? That’s quite obvious. A well-paid, working person doesn’t make a good suicide bomber. The key mistake you’re making is to believe that Hamas cares about well-being of Palestinians, which is exactly the same mistake people make talking about economy of Russia. Why does all-powerful Putin still keep ~30% of Russian without basic infrastructure and in low-paid jobs? Some people say he’s “incompetent”, some believe conspiracies (“nefarious West doesn’t allow Putin improve Russians’ well-being”) but the simple truth demonstrated by the mobilisation in 2022. Provincial Russia is being kept a miserable economic shithole specifically because that was the only way to ensure supply of cannon fodder for Putin’s imperial wars.
(DIR) Post #AaasbLm1pmzdjELHeq by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T12:39:11Z
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@kravietz One thing I think has been a problem is how outsiders lead, or pressure, peace negotiations. Until they're led by Palestinians & Israelis themselves, I'm not sure how successful they'll be. Leaning on the US or Iran to resolve things - when they have problems with each other - doesn't seem likely to lead anywhere.But let me summarise my position. I believe in humanity in others - in a path to redemption for everyone - no matter their burden. If they do the work to redeem themselves.
(DIR) Post #AaaskvaY2qkpPdXVEO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T12:41:25.922928Z
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@GavinChait How do you not lead negotiations with Hamas without Iran if Hamas is 99% Iranian proxy? 🤔
(DIR) Post #Aaayb7jsc9BHvSc2S0 by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T12:48:52Z
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@kravietz Ah, dude 😢 Read up on Rawabi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawabi Everything Palestinians try do for themselves gets sabotaged by Israel. I've interviewed young, super-smart Palestinian coders who work for Israeli companies building the surveillance software that will be used against them. Because Israel loves cheap, disposable, highly-skilled labour from the occupied territories, & there is no other work for ambitious Palestinians.The degree of youth hopelessness in Palestine is cruel & tragic.
(DIR) Post #Aaayb8aLT59GYB9wEC by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T13:46:54.444215Z
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@GavinChait I’m not quite getting what you’re trying to demonstrate by pointing at Rawabi? That Hamas cares about Palestinians well-being? But Rawabi is West Bank, not in Gaza which is Hamas stronghold.I’ve never said that all Palestinians share Hamas values, quite the opposite - from the very beginning I said that Hamas eliminated all peace movements in Palestine, and that’s in addition to stealing billions in humanitarian help and redirecting them for weapons.I can only share your enthusiasm about Rawabi and I share the anger of people who saw the IDF being redirected for protecting the expansion of Israeli settlers in West Bank, as very likely this is what left the south open for Hamas to attack. I very much hope politicians who took this direction will be removed from power in Israel and this is possible as long as Israel has elections.As you have correctly noted, Palestine - thanks to Hamas - has no elections, and therefore the only way to peace is to get rid of Hamas.
(DIR) Post #Aaayb9FT0C2ebiOmK8 by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T12:54:08Z
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@kravietz Palestine's demography is breathtaking. Fully 60% of its people are under 25. There have been no elections in the Occupied Territories for more than a decade, that means more than 70% of the population have never voted. Yet you keep asking Palestinians to "renounce" violence? How? Through what mechanism? And why not ask that of Israelis who recently returned Netanyahu to power?Youth hopelessness is corrosive & destructive. How many Russians fight in Ukraine merely because of poverty?
(DIR) Post #AabMXMlnBaAQHiFRvU by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T14:11:32Z
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@kravietz Yeah, but the West Bank hasn't had legislative elections since 2006 either. While there are local elections, national elections are almost impossible to hold, including because of Israeli obstruction (Palestinians in the West Bank can't travel freely *inside* the West Bank).If Rawabi's obstruction is bad, the embargo in Gaza is worse. Limited to 2G mobile phone tech. Building material is blocked. Plus, since most aid agencies refuse to work with Hamas, almost no money goes in.
(DIR) Post #AabMXNg9o1Fn6WcSmW by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T18:15:09.117952Z
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@GavinChaitCan you remind me what borders does Gaza have? This question is quite important when you mention Gaza embargo.
(DIR) Post #AabMXTzsJcaihPtILg by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T14:15:16Z
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@kravietz The situation in Gaza and the West Bank is a frozen state, at Israeli convenience. Even if they wanted to, elections are difficult to hold. New voting equipment was held up by Israeli customs for a decade before being destroyed.Change in Palestine is blocked by the occupation, & corruption on both sides. They're not only a poor, physically fragmented country. They're a country under direct military occupation.Nothing can change until some sort of peace process begins.
(DIR) Post #Aabh47kU3LeiKxX8ym by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2023-10-09T19:16:54Z
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@kravietz You making the point that Egypt holds one border hostage as well? But Gaza and the Palestinians have always been a political punching bag between the generals. Egypt's military leaders have locked up their Islamist leaders, and regard Hamas as a "third-force" enemy. Egypt & Israel's leadership see eye-to-eye on locking Islamic movements out of any democratic process. Isolating Gaza is of a piece with that.
(DIR) Post #Aabh48bereBqzsPbrU by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-10-09T22:05:09.957949Z
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@GavinChaitIt's interesting, because if my memory doesn't cheat on me, it was Egypt who was one of the main belligerents in an attempted invasion on Israel in 1973. And now you say they both — Jews and Egyptians — seem to treat Hamas with a dose of skepticism, to put that lightly. Would you consider that there could possibly slightly more complex reasons for that than just plain malice against Gaza? For example, simple human disgust towards the goals and methods of Hamas?And please don't generalize "Islamic movements" as being somewhat universally "locked out of democratic process" bases on the case of Hamas. I happen to know quite a lot of Muslim political activists first hand (albeit mostly in Caucasus) and none of them share the savage goals of Hamas. There are Arab parties in Knesset, so it's like saying because Ku Klux Klan is declaratively (!) Christian, and KKK is banned, therefore Christian parties are "locked out" 🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #AacYfMoqHQ6BMVDSvw by kwj@hub.hubzilla.de
2023-10-10T05:56:00Z
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@Gavin Chait 🧸 Hamas is not Islam. Islam is not Hamas. Hamas is Hamas, a terrorist group using religion to spread their propaganda. Islam is Islam, a religion, not a terror group. Religion and faith is used by Hamas to spread terrorism.