Post AaS6C48bYfk2Mhyd7Y by denki@mastodontech.de
(DIR) More posts by denki@mastodontech.de
(DIR) Post #AaQNpLP0c2gK6o2rOC by echo_pbreyer@digitalcourage.social
2023-10-04T11:03:40Z
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🇬🇧 The timeline algorithms of Instagram and Co. are surveillance capitalist hate and fake news slingshots. Should users be able to freely choose their timeline algorithm in future? Conservatives and Socialists are preventing that. #Pirates https://t.co/ldnHpGGqks
(DIR) Post #AaQNpMBDinFKWKbMXI by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T11:07:50Z
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@echo_pbreyer I don't get this. You want to force a specific SaaS provider into something?EU is already sponsoring Fediverse, where such options can exist. Lead by example and the best option wins.
(DIR) Post #AaQWGUa9OEu41ziFMW by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T12:42:18Z
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@troed "the best option wins"That is not how any market has ever worked.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQWI8Lp1233f5nFBo by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T12:42:38Z
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@artisanrox @echo_pbreyer Walmart occupies physical locations - no one can "create another Walmart" in the exact same place.The same is not true regarding services on Internet.
(DIR) Post #AaQWL66FqEvRY5vPTE by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T12:43:11Z
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@denki @echo_pbreyer If you don't think so, your opinion of "best" is not the same as the majority's.
(DIR) Post #AaQXCYAmCJfBxnWocK by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T12:52:53Z
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@troed You are probably right with your assessment, but let us look at the example here.The EU considered to force social media platforms to provide an additional feature. Either you want that feature or not. For customers who don't want it, there is no obligation to use it, so no problems for them. For those who do want it, it would be an improvement. Consequently, by my (apparently super-weird) opinion, having the feature is strictly better.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQXN0hoy37tLvyM5Y by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T12:54:47Z
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@troedThe opinion of the majority is not usually what drives the market. Money is what drives it.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQXp19qsd36raRFnU by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T12:59:52Z
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@denki @echo_pbreyer I'm very much against the public sector telling private companies what to do in general. We know for a fact that it's hindering innovation. It's easy to say "this thing that already exists should be different" - but by doing so we change possible future innovations we don't know anything about that might have a large net negative effect.
(DIR) Post #AaQXvPlSJ4QOut4sO8 by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T13:01:01Z
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@denki @echo_pbreyer Money being how consumers vote. Look at solar cells and electric cars. The change we're seeing now is not driven by governments but by consumers, since those options today are better than the alternatives.
(DIR) Post #AaQYcQOdpfrPKRuobI by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T13:08:46Z
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@troed "I'm very much against the public sector telling private companies what to do in general."You surely don't mean that private companies should be entirely without public oversight (i.e. not subject to any laws).@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQYi98GvshXWTzFs8 by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T13:09:49Z
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@denki @echo_pbreyer If you believe that's what the statement meant I don't think this is a discussion worth continuing.
(DIR) Post #AaQYsMgXOnECS3t3fE by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T13:11:37Z
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@troed Of course any policy has the potential to have large net negative effects. It is also possible that NOT having the policy has large net negative effects. Without looking at the concrete policy, the argument is entirely symmetrical.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQZ3ViCB68NdIydgO by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T13:13:41Z
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@troed I just wanted to confirm that you did not mean "in general" literally. It is hard to tell hyperbole in online discussions.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQZFDczEvLP1O7jMG by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T13:15:48Z
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@denki @echo_pbreyer Actually no. We know that the public sector is much much worse at innovation than the private. Thus, any public sector intervention provably lessens innovation.
(DIR) Post #AaQZzgBHPc1MtkJmee by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T13:24:10Z
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@troed Aside from the fact that I do not agree with your conclusion here (especially the "provably"), I don't much care for innovation in general. What I (and probably many other customers) care for is innovation that benefits society.For example consider planned obsolescence. The introduction of this was surely an innovation; after all, manufacturers can sell more devices that way. Society, however, does not (net) profit from this.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQbGAQmoJiVIwzsOW by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T13:38:23Z
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@denki @echo_pbreyer "Planned obsolescence" is a myth - perpetuated by people who have never designed and built something. Except, _possibly_ that famous light bulb example from a century ago.It's a simple fact that it's more expensive to build something more robust, and the consumers buy the cheaper version. Thus, the consumer's wallet-votes are what causes things, like smartphones, to have non-replaceable batteries.How I know?Well I worked at Sony Ericsson/Sony Mobile/Sony for 15 years, in roles from engineering up to research and strategy. Innovation has in general been a net positive for humanity since forever. More innovation = more benefits to humanity.
(DIR) Post #AaQbcy3yxZeLbhCdA8 by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T13:42:30Z
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@troed "Innovation has in general been a net positive for humanity since forever."I agree. That does not mean that any innovation is a net positive for humanity.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQcIDXqIvrNUlq5Cq by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T13:49:57Z
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@troed "'Planned obsolescence' is a myth"No. Look at ink cartridges, for example. They are actively designed to prevent refilling.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQcaqDZG2vGeMEhSS by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T13:52:48Z
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@troed I agree that not all markets are equally plagued by planned obsolescence. The smart phone market is probably fine (like you stated) because there is enough competition. But this is different for social media.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQdB4C8lkJaQKqH3Y by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T13:59:53Z
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@denki Yes, and the consumer chooses to buy the cheap printer with expensive cartridges instead of the more expensive printer with cheaper cartridges.Anyone who could build a cheap printer with cheap cartridges would - and would take over the market.Regarding competition in social media - no other business sector has the churn that Internet services have. You could be _gone_ tomorrow - like what happened to MySpace. @echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQdIjHCQXb9rZrWO8 by SrEstegosaurio@mstdn.social
2023-10-04T14:01:10Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer This is just factually incorrect.
(DIR) Post #AaQdhWRdGwCbJ1Z3XU by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-04T14:05:31Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer There are tons of incentives and awarness campaigns done by the govs to make people switch to solar and EV. Places without those state interventions makes way less progress in that area. This is a needed shift for our society but it's not a short term bonus for consumers without those incentives. (It's a mid term one but most consumers don't think that far).This is the perfect exemple of state intervention pushing innovation IMHO :)
(DIR) Post #AaQdijkLImjSqltYcC by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T14:05:57Z
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@troed What the consumer "chooses" to buy is no indicator for what is best for society.Maybe the consumer "chooses" to buy the cheap printer because they are short on money and need stuff printed. Because of this initial "decision" they are then locked into buying expensive cartridges.Voting with money is not democratic.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQdxiRKRUWD8p8zSK by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T14:08:40Z
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@denki Your fallacy is that you believe that you know "what's best for society" even though the majority of the populace do not agree with you.Isn't it great that there are cheap up-front printers for those short on money?@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQe30xF24wC0mb6jg by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T14:09:38Z
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@StephaneHuart Yes, there are, but those incentives aren't what's causing the price of solar to fall rapidly - or how come driving an electrical car (I do myself) is a lot cheaper which makes up for the higher purchase price.@denki @echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQeAFmSJA681M0KlE by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T14:10:55Z
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@troed Of course, I do not know what is best for society. I just don't believe that the market always knows either.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQeEvEo73UlkyUYZk by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T14:11:46Z
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@troed "Isn't it great that there are cheap up-front printers for those short on money?"Sure. It would be even better if their cartridges were not actively designed to rip customers off.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQeHu1l4Nyss4oFQ8 by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T14:12:19Z
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@denki ... but that the cartridges are is _why_ the printer is cheap up-front. If the cartridges weren't, it wouldn't be.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQehHPDHqOMcKsgro by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T14:16:53Z
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@troed So you are conceding that planned obsolescence exists?@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQf907b8shX7UrOZE by sudonymouse@fosstodon.org
2023-10-04T14:21:52Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer We do not know for a fact that it is hindering innovation. It's hindering abuse from private companies though.
(DIR) Post #AaQfDlceTdpDbEerQW by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T14:22:46Z
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@denki It's not planned obsolescence. It's the "Gillette" method. Sell the razor cheap and the blades expensive. Also used by games console makers btw.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQfHQwLJdSIc2cI8O by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T14:23:26Z
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@sudonymouse Have you checked the research on the subject?I have.(I worked at Sony Research for many years, and I was also part of both national and EU sponsored projects as such)@denki @echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQfnQlHVxSvKGhTLE by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T14:29:12Z
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@troed Could you link us a survey so we can read for ourselves?@sudonymouse @echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQfnq3ZT5wxmERvou by sudonymouse@fosstodon.org
2023-10-04T14:29:16Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer Wow, reaching for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority so soon instead of point me to said research? Which of course I assume would independent and devoid of unknowns and biases and would not conflate innovation with economic indicators.
(DIR) Post #AaQg1yvPIDW9KsNILw by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T14:31:49Z
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@troed I am not talking about the cheap device / expensive consumables strategy. I am talking about ink cartridges actively being designed to not be refillable.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQkBnRJFYRwQWETDM by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T15:18:24Z
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@denki Alright, I don't think you have designed devices so I get I might need to make it clearer. Let's say you run a business where you take a loss on the printer and make the money back on the cartridges.What happens if the cartridges can be easily refillable by the consumer?If it's a loaded subject, try this one: Pretend you're the ones making the Playstation 5, selling it at a loss (I don't know if it's true for this generation btw, this is an example) and making the money back off licensing the manufacturing of the games.What happens if the consumers can re-use the same "game" to play all games possible on the system?@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQlJNuu7tQTXZG1HE by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T15:31:01Z
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@sudonymouse @denki Sure! I like this quote:'Risk-aversity as the default status.As public organisations provide the backbone of a nation’s services and infrastructure, they are geared up to manage (or avoid) risk, delivering on security and safety goals as a top priority. Risk management principles are deep in the psyche of public sector leaders, politicians and civil servants While this is a positive, it may also be detrimental to innovation efforts due to problems reconciling potential failure with public(-facing) responsibility “It is hard to allow for error in public administration, but if we don’t have room for error, we will never have innovation as it goes against the public accountability of civil servants,” says Nathalie Loiseau, former Director of l’ENA, now Minister of European Affairs in France'https://www.bearingpoint.com/files/LB_OpenInnovation_Insight.pdf@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQpwC64PE6vzZF1RQ by sudonymouse@fosstodon.org
2023-10-04T16:22:50Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer First this targets OPEN innovation IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR (whatever that means). Second this is a commercial brochure.
(DIR) Post #AaQuiDT10yUpxS7zk0 by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T17:16:21Z
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@sudonymouse @denki What in the quote are you claiming to be in error?@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaQzKa6DiSyMyJ0ziq by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T18:08:04Z
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@troed@sudonymouse claims that your quote is not relevant to the question at hand. I agree.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaR0v03imAfvram9zs by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T18:25:54Z
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@denki @sudonymouseSure - but why? It deals exactly with why publicly funded and/or controlled innovation is so slow compared to private.
(DIR) Post #AaR5rTFOoP4v0BNHhQ by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:21:15Z
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@troed @sudonymouseIt deals with publicly funded AND controlled innovation. No 'or'. It says that this MAY hinder innovation. Not that it must.The EU did not consider publicly funding or even controlling the innovation of social media platforms. It simply aimed to add a single feature which can hardly be called 'control'.
(DIR) Post #AaR64dOUOlCcEfu49o by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:23:39Z
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@troed @echo_pbreyer "Alright, I don't think you have designed devices so I get I might need to make it clearer."Correct. As a software developer, I design and implement software, not hardware.
(DIR) Post #AaR6OEWeZGfGtq4F4C by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:27:11Z
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@troed @echo_pbreyer "What happens if the cartridges can be easily refillable by the consumer?"I am not disputing that planned obsolescence works well for manufacturers. I even stated so when I called it an innovation for manufacturers.That does not change the fact that actively making a device stop working when this is not technically necessary IS planned obsolescence.
(DIR) Post #AaR6VWAzLFuBfXPK3E by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:28:30Z
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@troed @echo_pbreyerYour PlayStation example is indeed not planned obsolescence. (That does not mean that planned obsolescence does not exist, as you claim.)
(DIR) Post #AaR6mqs1eeU0m1nrF2 by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T19:31:39Z
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@denki Give me an example of planned obsolescence and I'll show how it's consumer selected for. (I'm a software engineer, mechanical engineer, IoT device designer, etc. I have worked for multiple global companies making hardware devices)
(DIR) Post #AaR7DDIQtkV5r6j1G4 by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:36:24Z
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@troedI do not even claim that is not selected for by the consumer.I claim that it exists and that it is bad for society.
(DIR) Post #AaR7NiynxGCt12YYBU by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:36:52Z
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@troedI have given you an example already: ink cartridges.
(DIR) Post #AaR7NjtAZhIFpqvZ2W by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-04T19:38:18Z
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@denki Well if you still haven't understood I guess there's nothing more to say. It seems your opinion is that the general public is bad for society.
(DIR) Post #AaR7XaLysin79r6BdY by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:40:05Z
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@troed"It seems your opinion is that the general public is bad for society."That is hyperbole again, I guess.I actually think that some things that the general public does are bad for society. For example: planned obsolescence.
(DIR) Post #AaR7cvPe0nObv4MHnk by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T19:41:03Z
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@troed Even though you make it hard to follow you by moving the goal post all the time, I think I have kept up.
(DIR) Post #AaS0sHHqSespaG2nGi by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T06:00:06Z
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@denki It's done for the consumers. Otherwise they wouldn't have the option of a cheap printer. That product exists since the customers buy it.
(DIR) Post #AaS1TS3hNI9rhs9XjU by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T06:06:49Z
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@troed Actually it's done for the company. Companies are no welfare organizations; they (understandably) act with self-interest or in the interest of their shareholders.Of course they would not be able to do this if the consumer would not still buy their product.I am not disputing the role of the customer. But the practice is still planned obsolescence.
(DIR) Post #AaS4drMWS1ZkwVc1AG by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T06:29:30Z
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@troed I am not claiming that companies employ planned obsolescence with malicious intent to spite humanity. The definition of planned obsolescence does not require malicious intent.What I am claiming is:1. Planned obsolescence exists.2. Planned obsolescence is bad for society.Your claim that "'Planned obsolescence' is a myth" contradicts (1), but all your arguments went to the intentions/reasons for its use, not to its existence.
(DIR) Post #AaS4ds7Je30RHdVO6K by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T06:42:19Z
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@denki Why is cheap printers bad for society? I mean, they do get used to do something.
(DIR) Post #AaS4tiQPRnlZrDzVCK by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T06:45:11Z
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@troed Are we done with (1) now? Does that mean that you accept that planned obsolescence exists?
(DIR) Post #AaS5LuXxyKRTYqyDey by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T06:50:16Z
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@troed Cheap printers are not bad for society.Planned obsolescence, however, is. Mainly, this is because of the additional garbage that it produces which has to be cleaned up (by society) at some point in the future while causing problems in the mean time. This (externalized) cost is not paid by manufacturer or consumer and therefore the market cannot optimize for it.
(DIR) Post #AaS63mFECVd6YP7f5E by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T06:58:13Z
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@denki No - because the definition of it is that evil manufacturers are colluding to make more money off poor consumers who don't know any better.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
(DIR) Post #AaS6C48bYfk2Mhyd7Y by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T06:59:41Z
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@troed Where do you read this in the definition?"In economics and industrial design, planned obsolescence [...] is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life or a purposely frail design, so that it becomes obsolete after a certain pre-determined period of time upon which it decrementally functions or suddenly ceases to function, or might be perceived as unfashionable."
(DIR) Post #AaS6H2z3HChcEYsrdA by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T07:00:36Z
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@denki Next paragraph:"Planned obsolescence tends to work best when a producer has at least an oligopoly. Before introducing a planned obsolescence, the producer has to know that the customer is at least somewhat likely to buy a replacement from them in the form of brand loyalty. In these cases of planned obsolescence, there is an information asymmetry between the producer, who knows how long the product was designed to last, and the customer, who does not."
(DIR) Post #AaS6Tz92rPEM5njAYK by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T07:02:56Z
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@troed This is not the definition as can be easily derived from words like "tends to work best" or "In these cases of".
(DIR) Post #AaS6pwiYZ7Jow3oFMG by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T07:06:54Z
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@denki Feel free to look up as many other definitions as you please. You'll quickly find that people claim smartphones belong there - which we've previously shown is not true.https://www.economist.com/news/2009/03/23/planned-obsolescence
(DIR) Post #AaS7FN1VtkujlEndi4 by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T07:11:30Z
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@troed This is irrelevant. I did not claim that smartphones belong there. Nor is the existence of planned obsolescence reliant on smartphones being examples of it.You are conflating the definition of a term with opinions that people have about what that term applies to.
(DIR) Post #AaS7XEXZakJPl2vRI0 by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T07:14:45Z
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@denki The definition of a term is what people consider it to be. That's how languages work.(example: 'gay')
(DIR) Post #AaS838BRuMvGH124Aa by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T07:20:29Z
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@troed I agree.You are just conflating "what people consider it to be" with "what people consider to be examples of it".
(DIR) Post #AaS8IXzoDleMfkwGki by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T07:23:15Z
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@troed 'Gay' is a good example.Just because some people consider someone to be gay who isn't does not change what is considered gay.
(DIR) Post #AaS8gNiY5U2rkEEM2y by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T07:27:36Z
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@denki That is _exactly_ how the meaning of the word changed from happy to homosexual.
(DIR) Post #AaS8nlNSWFJL9RsylE by denki@mastodontech.de
2023-10-05T07:28:56Z
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@troed From one homosexual being (incorrectly) classified as happy?
(DIR) Post #AaSl3sc9B14gUIrsjA by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T14:37:23Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer These incentives are still part of the reasons, because, has more people switch to those alternatives, the volume of production will allow for better prices. And then, you can remove incentives. That's what happened with EV also: the new models are cheaper because now the prod chains are well established, at the beginning it was not the case, so you had to push people to switch by giving tax relief/money as incentives
(DIR) Post #AaSlrHy1hhYbJ9f6a8 by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T14:46:33Z
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@StephaneHuart @denki When on this graph did incentives start?https://avenston.com/en/articles/pv-cost-history/@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaSmTr4lcQdhCSCkXg by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T14:53:01Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer Hum, the thing is, the answer is in the article you posted "The US federal government allocated more than $8 billion to research and development of solar energy technology". This is not "incentive" to buy, but incentive to research, and this is still state fostering innovation.
(DIR) Post #AaSnIyVFlRn30Hy9IG by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T15:02:45Z
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@StephaneHuart @denki Hmm now you switched argument. Let me finish the first one.If solar cells drop in cost at 50% per 5 years - what is an incentive paying you twice the market price for your energy worth?Five years. That's the maximum increase in adoption speed that incentive creates. It doesn't make or break the technology.https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/evolution-of-solar-pv-module-cost-by-data-source-1970-2020And yes, you are missing the point. In the 70s we weren't looking to replace nuclear with solar - but we did start to question the dependency on oil due to the oil crisis in the Middle East.BUT - I'm all in favor of publicly funded basic research (which is very different from the type of innovation the thread started with). That is, research that comes out of higher education institutions. The argument is that once technology with market appear exists, there's no further intervention needed. People install solar panels because it makes economic sense.@echo_pbreyer
(DIR) Post #AaSo4JwLsaON6GDjVp by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T15:11:11Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer Ok, I see where you are going. Thanks for the clarification. I think we agree at least on state funded research and public university work. It's just that IMHO, it goes against the idea that was suggested elsewhere in this thread that public sector is bad at fostering innovation, so I think it's part of the same debate. State funded researchs and higher education instits are public sector fostering inovation and have been a very strong driving force
(DIR) Post #AaSpQkbRWpDE7NhSDo by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T15:22:36Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer What I still don't get is your point regarding "buy incentives". Your article still mention buy incentives as a reason for price falling, and even producers aknowledge that incentives are helping the market to grow. Do you really think that without any state subsidies or incentives EV would be as popular as they are now?https://www.seia.org/solar-industry-research-data
(DIR) Post #AaSpQlJ2ui5gIc6HBY by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T15:26:33Z
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@StephaneHuart That's what the calculation was regarding. You speed up adoption by a set amount of time. It would've happened automatically anyway due to the cost falling.
(DIR) Post #AaSpQnMfGEAogPoC6S by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T15:25:33Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer -> "California,Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York. Because of their outsized portion of the market, policy and incentive changes in any of those states could rattle the market and stymie national growth"-> "The solar industry is expected to nearly triple in cumulative deployment by 2028, as the Inflation Reduction Act provides key tax incentives and long-term certainty that will spark demand for solar and storage and accelerate the transition to renewable energy"
(DIR) Post #AaSpkWVpctBwD0VHge by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T15:28:03Z
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@troed @denki @echo_pbreyer Regarding "If solar cells drop in cost at 50% per 5 years - what is an incentive paying you twice the market price for your energy worth?"I see that as a "chicken and egg" thing: if the incentives were not there, the price perhaps would not have dropped because of the volume of production increase..
(DIR) Post #AaSpkXC162w4JqEyRM by troed@masto.sangberg.se
2023-10-05T15:30:09Z
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@StephaneHuart Thus the graph :) Cost has been falling at a similar rate for 50 years. Solar PV cost drops because of similar forces as silicon manufacturing. We don't need GPU incentives for that.
(DIR) Post #AaSqbnIZwiAvcOhq6K by StephaneHuart@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T15:39:45Z
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@troed Yeah, but before you had public funding for research in the 70, so that was helping also. And if i am not wrong there were big incentives that appeared around 2008, which happened to be an inflexion point in your graph. That is matching the big incentives packages in the US, China, etchttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_incentives_for_photovoltaics