Post Aa5mnLdPCCaamglW1Q by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) More posts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) Post #Aa5mnJnc1HZ75lWdea by shoq@mastodon.social
2023-09-22T21:06:54Z
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I need to broaden my #Matrix discussions.Here’s a 2.5 yo post about an 800 lb gorilla in the Matrix idea. I’ve heard people brush it off, but their needs were often niche, fanciful, or delusional. I need some engineers to help me separate the facts, legends, myths, and bullshit of a large scale federated matrix chat network. In our experience, just enabling presence can bring a Synapse server to its knees, if even if just 1 user follows a BIG room. What if many folks follow MANY big … 1/2
(DIR) Post #Aa5mnKkoTAv83NDuvg by insert@fedi.insertapp.net
2023-09-22T21:29:45.968Z
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@shoq@mastodon.social I have presence disabled on my synapse server, probably the largest room I’ve joined is the firefish support room. Performance hasn’t been too bad, storage hasn’t been an issue either, though I primarily use it for bridging and secure conversation. Considering the heavy constraints I have on storage for synapses, I would expect joining a large room to kill it
(DIR) Post #Aa5mnLdPCCaamglW1Q by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-24T12:38:30Z
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@insert>.Considering the heavy constraints I have on storage for synapses, I would expect joining a large room to kill itWhy? Also what do you mean by "large"? Many users, or high traffic?(1/2)@shoq
(DIR) Post #Aa5mnNLkones6WWRmq by shoq@mastodon.social
2023-09-22T21:06:59Z
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rooms? Hmm? 2/2
(DIR) Post #Aa5n5fT4C9JJVafIci by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-24T12:41:34Z
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@shoq @insertIn my experiences using community-hosted servers, large rooms put a big load on the homeserver during a join, but once it's synced up with the room information (members list etc) and a small amount of room history, it's fine.A large,encrypted room would take longer, what with exchanging keys and decrypting history (if enabled). But it's unusual for rooms to be both large *and* encrypted.(2/2)
(DIR) Post #Aa5nVdNOarPMYEOVJA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-24T12:46:37Z
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@shoq @insertIn my experiences using community-hosted servers, large rooms put a big load on the homeserver during a join, but once it's synced up with the room information (members list etc) and a small amount of room history, it's fine.A large,encrypted room would take longer, what with exchanging keys and decrypting history (if enabled). But it's unusual for rooms to be both large *and* encrypted. But even that would be a temporary problem.(2/3)
(DIR) Post #Aa5o1YDZJAQzoq16FE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-24T12:51:31Z
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@shoqIf you're worried about storage from high traffic rooms, there are ways of automatically deleting surplus stuff, like old media, that keep it in check pretty well. ASCII text alone takes up a tiny of space. You'd need a Wikipedia or so worth of chat history before you start about storing that.(3/3)@insert
(DIR) Post #Aa5o85YqFh5wy65J8C by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-24T12:53:11Z
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@shoqIf you're worried about storage from high traffic rooms, there are ways of automatically deleting surplus stuff, like old media, that keep it in check pretty well. ASCII text alone takes up a tiny amount of storage. You could be on your way to a Wikipedia or so worth of chat history before you start worrying about storing that.(3/3)@insert
(DIR) Post #Aa6dKLWPpaeBbiYHaq by insert@fedi.insertapp.net
2023-09-24T13:49:51.559Z
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@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz @shoq@mastodon.social referring more to high traffic considering the amount of data that would need to be added to the database, now that I fixed that though it should be fine if I join a large room.
(DIR) Post #Aa6dKMKOpkd66jwCVE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-24T22:27:16Z
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@insert> now that I fixed that though it should be fine if I join a large roomWhat was the fix? Constraining media storage as you mentioned in your other post?@shoq
(DIR) Post #Aa7IAq5RQtdTcyWKC8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-25T06:04:56Z
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@shoq > In our experience, just enabling presence can bring a Synapse server to its knees, if even if just 1 user follows a BIG roomHave you looked into the changes that @matrix 2.0 brings to the network?https://matrix.org/blog/2023/09/matrix-2-0/#chat #decentralisation #matrix #matrix2
(DIR) Post #Aa7zAX38Vb7Gc7XfkG by shoq@mastodon.social
2023-09-25T14:06:38Z
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@strypey Yes, but not sure it changes the core calculus. Someone has to pay for servers that stay vulnerable to the usage habits and whims of individual users choosing to join any given room, many of them potentially enormous. Challenging to fund, whenever I try to figure out how to scale it up. And the data redundancy and media handling are the same issues activityPub faces. I’ve never been comfortable squaring all that in my head, but I’m not an engineer. Still trying tho.
(DIR) Post #Aa8VHj0XdzFOGHnnPc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-25T20:06:30Z
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@shoq> servers that stay vulnerable to the usage habits and whims of individual users choosing to join any given room, many of them potentially enormousI'm not a server admin but this seems like a totally tractable problem. Isn't there are a way of configuring a matrix homeserver to only keep chat history for a certain numbers of months/ weeks/ days? Or to give each room a maximum storage space, so it has to delete history once it reaches that limit, starting with the oldest items?
(DIR) Post #Aa8YOMLkaFX9sYZs4e by shoq@mastodon.social
2023-09-25T20:41:19Z
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@strypey The archives are a manageable problem. it’s the total number of subscribers in a room that creates the notifies overhead. If Presence is enabled, even a modest room can bring the server to its knees. Now one might argue that no big centralized chat servers have presence, and that’s true, but it’s always been a selling point of Matrix, but it’s expensive. As it is, I subscribe to 40+ rooms on my own (big) server and loading can take 60+ secs or more.
(DIR) Post #Aa9CQUqZxU7wyiZTgu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-26T04:09:56Z
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@shoq > If Presence is enabled, even a modest room can bring the server to its kneesI presume you're talking about a Synapse server running matrix 1.8? So you're describing the performance limits of that software, in its current state, running a version of the protocol that will be out-of-date within about a year.> I subscribe to 40+ rooms on my own (big) server and loading can take 60+ secs or moreThis is why I drew your attention to matrix 2.0. Sliding Sync takes care of this.
(DIR) Post #Aa9vVJ8FRD141vVJFQ by shoq@mastodon.social
2023-09-26T12:34:08Z
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@strypey Good to know, if it works and is actually rolled-out for real in less than a few years. They move glacially. And this doesn’t make their byzantine session verifications any easier, where the messages and tips are written & for engineers, but users are totally lost..
(DIR) Post #AaAMBcPIlHAqmVJhCK by shoq@mastodon.social
2023-09-26T17:21:46Z
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@strypey You convinced me that Matrix 2 has enough long term promise that I would try once again to fix our invite bug. I don’t want to sell it short. The Sydent ID people feel it’s a template config error. Waiting for admins to try once again, but overall, this kind of problem illustrates what a maze of issues Matrix can be. Have you configured Sydent properly yourself?
(DIR) Post #AaB96flHl1BTUWs2i0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-27T02:42:10Z
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@shoq> if it works and is actually rolled-out for real in less than a few yearsPlease read the linked blog post. It anticipates and addresses almost every criticism you've made in this thread, including this one. The protocols changes are already available for testing, using an add-on to Synapse and the Element X beta.
(DIR) Post #AaB9MEm1rkAIQHdlLM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-27T02:44:59Z
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@shoq> byzantine session verifications any easier, where the messages and tips are written & for engineers, but users are totally lostYou mean the one where if you open a verified session on a device with a camera, you can just scan a QR code on a new session to verify?I'm finding it really hard to believe that you have used Element recently. Because most of your criticisms would have been fair a few years ago, but they don't describe the experience I have using it today.
(DIR) Post #AaEhCLI2lNCdeXwpoO by shoq@mastodon.social
2023-09-28T19:48:11Z
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@strypey Have you tried to explain the verification process, the keys, and the rest of the Element infrastructure to ordinary users? I have. Most of them want to hit me. Of course it’s better than it was. But it still has a long way to go. The error messages themselves could be a crowd project, but it’s unlikely to self-organize. The Element folks could craft projects like that easily. But they won’t.
(DIR) Post #AaEtFKFuGSrqlO8Zpw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-28T22:03:18Z
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@shoq> Have you tried to explain the verification process, the keys, and the rest of the Element infrastructure to ordinary users?I got one of my friend to use it to keep in touch with me while he was overseas. It wasn't hard to explain the bits he needed to know to use it. For the same reason, He got his brother onto it. A guy who isn't with all due respect, the sharpest tool in the shed. My friend was able to explain it to his brother, having only just learned it himself.
(DIR) Post #AaEtYM3zlcTVs9dj60 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-28T22:06:43Z
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@shoqBut if you think matrix is too complicated, you could always try XMPP instead. The @snikket_im server and apps might be the best place to start. Although eJabberD now supports both protocols:https://www.process-one.net/blog/matrix-protocol-added-to-ejabberd/#chat #matrix #XMPP #Snikket
(DIR) Post #AaEtpyjvDsrMkPed3Q by mahaska@kolektiva.social
2023-09-28T22:09:56Z
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@strypey @shoq @snikket_im I've been using OpenFire for a few years 😁🤪
(DIR) Post #AaFEZd7NwRuo5rft9E by jabberati@social.anoxinon.de
2023-09-29T02:02:15Z
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@strypey @shoq @snikket_im Does ejabberd support Matrix in their free version yet? The article makes it seem like it's for business customers only.
(DIR) Post #AaFPHUpp6CQ2ge13DM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-09-29T04:02:09Z
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@jabberati > Does ejabberd support Matrix in their free version yet?Good question. @ejabberd?@shoq @snikket_im