Post Aa4oQCWktbMkd1ml4S by m0xEE@breloma.m0xee.net
(DIR) More posts by m0xEE@breloma.m0xee.net
(DIR) Post #Aa08L6Q1CtKZWmgHDc by useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-21T19:11:51Z
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Why so much hate for #Poland đ”đ± among the #Russian đ·đș propagandists, and their USA đșđž proxies?GK Chesterton had the answer more than 100 years ago:1/2
(DIR) Post #Aa08O8jL4KUXZ9AMQy by useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-21T19:12:23Z
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"I judged the Poles by their enemies. And I found it was an almost unfailing truth that their enemies were the enemies of magnanimity and manhood. If a man loved slavery, if he loved usury, if he loved terrorism and all the trampled mire of materialistic politics, I have always found that he added to these affections the passion of a hatred of Poland. She could be judged in the light of that hatred; and the judgment has proved to be right."2/2
(DIR) Post #Aa0FN32rQ5xvK6iwBk by DianaSez@freeatlantis.com
2023-09-21T20:30:38Z
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@useless_idiot I have always shared that observation. When I was young there were many jokes about Poles being dumb. I wondered why, until I knew more, then I realized that those comments originated in jealousy. Poles are often both more intelligent than their co-workers, and harder working, as far as I have seen.
(DIR) Post #Aa0GIO9VcGbPICAwbo by useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-21T20:41:00Z
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@DianaSez There is also some excessive humbleness in the Polish spirit. Might have some historical cause, but they could do without it.
(DIR) Post #Aa0GhKIV5OOuZmGxGK by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-09-21T20:45:31Z
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@useless_idiot I think they hate Poles because being Slavic people, Poles still managed to break this cycle of abuse and distanced themselves from the empire â same reason they hate Ukrainians now I think.You might be surprised, but that's the way they bring you up here â I've been eyeing Poland as a country to move to and nearly everyone, especially the older generation have been telling me: "Why Poland? They hate us!". None of these people of course ever been to Poland.
(DIR) Post #Aa0GkG7765QwTALQmW by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-09-21T20:46:03Z
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@useless_idiot I knew a few Poles in person and even online Poles are among the most fun people so I have always found this hard to believe.The real reason is probably serf's way of thinking â when your master gets attacked you have to protect him, same here. Polish officials often voice something unfriendly towards Russia â the state, not the people â but a lot of Russians take it personally.
(DIR) Post #Aa0GmZq4jLMoE1TrDU by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-09-21T20:46:28Z
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@useless_idiot So when I hear this "But they hate us" now, I respond with "Well, if you start telling them they should be part of the empire, Eastern Bloc and all that, they might even punch you in your face â and they would be right" đ
(DIR) Post #Aa0HQOuilj7TvPdvk0 by useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-21T20:53:40Z
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@m0xee Yeah, the Boyars/Aristocracy is very good at making us hate each other. Not always though: the idea to ban Russian cultural expressions got very little traction in the Netherlands, but almost everyone condemned the invasion.
(DIR) Post #Aa0IHNfO8XkDP8jZPk by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-21T21:03:07.383229Z
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@m0xeeThat's their upbringing: Russians are brought up in totally collective culture, where everyone is part of one whole. What that whole is exactly at any given moment depends on who's currently in power, but all their tyrannies maintain this collective consciousness as it's useful from control perspective. First you notice it in the language â they always say "we won WW2", "we sent a man to the space", and every single lowlife in Russia had for a moment boasted about "we took Bakhmut". And yes, they do hate individualist societies and are afraid of them, also because being an individual implies responsibility for your individual actions and your whole life, whereas collectivism offers a safe anonymity among the herd.@useless_idiot
(DIR) Post #Aa0IiXzTrOQ5F75OWu by DianaSez@freeatlantis.com
2023-09-21T21:08:08Z
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@useless_idiot I have a long-time friend who is Polish and is not particularly humble, but then, he was raised in the USA, so he probably doesn't count. He is brilliant though. All his kids are doctors and lawyers too.
(DIR) Post #Aa0OYDkEsWAzHSPr0K by m0xEE@breloma.m0xee.net
2023-09-21T22:12:11.961804Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@kravietz Well, in part it's because most Russians have been living in poverty most of the time â when people don't own anything, they don't feel responsible for anything, they also feel free to steal things as it doesn't even come to their mind that it might be something that someone else has earned hard.I've been observing it for years when my mom have been planting flowers in front of our apartment building, watering them, weeding out the lawn â some people pass by and sometimes come up with an idea to come back and dig out something for themselves đ€Š Nothing even clicks in their head that someone might have done it with their own hands â they think that if something grows here, it must be the state, municipal services who have planted it â and if nothing grows on their lawn, the state must have made a mistake and they are free to fix it.Every time people were allowed to own something, to have something private and personal, the whole system started falling apart. That's why living in poverty and depending on the state for miserable pensions and wages has been perpetually normalized â even now when people pay taxes, they are often concealed. Even if you work for a private company, it's the company who is responsible for paying taxes â this way they are telling people: it's not you, who pays taxes â it's that filthy capitalist and he gets what he deserves.The second part of this problem is lack of genuine national culture â it always gets replaced by some state-crafted surrogate. Even when attempts are made to build something grassroots, the state either tries to hijack it â as was the case even with Immortal Regiment BTW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_Regiment#First_event_with_this_nameIt wasn't originally born in the depths of President's office.Or, if these ideas have seeds of personal liberties, freedom and democracy â so the state can't bend it to its will, it tries to outright destroy it.So when I'm telling people that modern day Russia might fall apart again, no one believes me: "But there are no separatist, there are no people trying to set themselves apart",â and that is true, but also there is nothing holding these people together.There is of course and undoubtly such a thing as Russian culture â but are Russians themselves really versed in it? Do these young men who go to the war now to "protect Russian culture" have any idea of what it is. Did they ever read Pushkin or Tolstoy outside of obligatory school program? I doubt that!They are often whining like bitches when some Soviet-era monuments gets torn down and I often ask them: "Why that monument is even supposed to be there?" They don't even realize how fucked up it is for Czechs to have monuments of Soviet soldiers.Will it be language only that will hold people together? It's just delusional to think so.It sometimes got really funny in late 90s to early 2000s: "Oh, Milla Jovovich, she's one of ours!"â she was born in Kyiv and moved to US when she was still a girl, how the fuck is she one of ours? Same for Nabokov â he had to flee the country while still being a teenager, he did write his early novels in Russian â while living in Berlin, the latter ones â in English, while living in US, but he's still "one of ours". Same story with Stravinsky â well, he at least used some "ethnic"/folk motives so that at least makes some sense. But I think most people who say this "one of ours" have never listened to Stravinsky and never read anything by Nabokov other than Lolita (originally in English). And sure thing, they know nothing about their biographies, they often even consider those who do exactly the same now â flee the country, traitors.I think that "divorce" with Ukraine would be particularly hard in this regard â as no one really knows which "Great Russian writer" was really Russian â for some figures it's obvious, for others â not so much.@useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa0WqndGzFP1QiWmX2 by elston@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-21T23:46:30Z
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@useless_idiot Things change. Poland screwed up big time supporting Ukraine. Now it is flooded with ungrateful refugees. Only thing that explains Poland's motivation in all of this is they are going to take a peace of Western Ukraine.
(DIR) Post #Aa0YbbIcl5EykCkXvU by useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-22T00:06:10Z
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@elston Nobody believes that old RT story.Why would they give weapons to Ukraine if they want a piece of it? And why not take it during the chaos of spring 2022?And this is how they handle the ungrateful ârefugeesâ that Putinâs buddy Lukashenko keeps sending them: https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1704950454894153996
(DIR) Post #Aa0YnO8zUmslQ0rfto by elston@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-22T00:08:18Z
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@useless_idiot Watch out it all plays out. Poland will get a piece, Hungary and Romania get a piece and Ukraine ends up a rump state. Time will tell.
(DIR) Post #Aa0YqRvPtUv20vyW7U by useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-22T00:08:51Z
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@elston Before what date will this happen?
(DIR) Post #Aa0YuONX1QOAAn0Pom by elston@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-22T00:09:34Z
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@useless_idiot Between 2025-27.
(DIR) Post #Aa0Z3cU1wxSYWaRgMS by useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com
2023-09-22T00:11:14Z
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@elston So before 1 January 2028. Thatâs far away but Iâll put it in my agenda. Please do the same.
(DIR) Post #Aa17qnhCRpvrvkECqe by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T06:40:56.615964Z
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@m0xEEThanks, that's *very* insightful comment! I've heard about the Immortal Regiment takeover and I have friends in Russia who were civic activists and e.g. got elected to municipal councils in a genuine vote, so these people are there in Russia. The problem is that they are overwhelmed by the passive-aggressive majority who simply wants to have a tough boss above them and have no responsibility for their lives...@useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1Cbf7sWkWUmMJ8yG by bjeelka@nafo.uk
2023-09-22T07:33:46Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kravietz @useless_idiot @m0xee I don't think "collective" is the right word. Post-soviet societies are EXTREMELY atomized, that's what totalitarian regimes do to people - they kill ANY horizontal connections, any grass roots, any organizations, any institutions that are not heartless state bureaucracy. Even nuclear family. That's why divorce rates in russia still sky high. That's why russians report on their close family to KGB.
(DIR) Post #Aa1CbolChuKMevmB16 by bjeelka@nafo.uk
2023-09-22T07:33:55Z
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@kravietz @useless_idiot @m0xee Soviet human" must always stay alone and naked in the dark before Sauron's eye of state. And they don't know any other reality and don't believe it exists. They don't believe collective action is a thing. If Ukrainians brought down their dictator on Maidan - that must be secretly CIA coup. For russians democracy is some kind of a ploy, it's not real, it can't be real. People can't be subject of politics, you can do nothing, that's a law of nature.
(DIR) Post #Aa1I6cOnDTTd4JndfE by bjeelka@nafo.uk
2023-09-22T07:53:49Z
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@kravietz @useless_idiot @m0xee And that's why they hate the collective "West" - for them it's just another dictatorship that exploits you, but foreign, and hiding behind the mask of democracy. They hate their own state too, but "at least it's honest". At least putin is saying what they feel, not that nonsense fairytales about human rights. It's a zero sum game world where everyone is a slave to those who have more power and an exploitative oppressor for those who have less.
(DIR) Post #Aa1I6dEu5jA1fwBFtA by bjeelka@nafo.uk
2023-09-22T08:03:24Z
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@kravietz @useless_idiot @m0xee And that's where famous post-soviet corruption came from (both Ukrainian and russian) - it's not a sin to steal from state, because the state is the enemy, the state is a slave owner, and you are slave. You can't free yourself, because there's no such thing as freedom, but you can take whatever you can as long as you don't get caught.
(DIR) Post #Aa1Iisq6XUiz3uowYC by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T08:42:46.202564Z
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@bjeelka Thatâs a very good point, and I have just read a book on the history of serf uprisings in Poland[^1] which is a bit of an eye opener. All social phenomena widespread in the USSR - pretending to do work, workplace theft, passive resistance etc - were exact copies of the behavioural patterns under serfdom, be it in Poland or in Russia. And these patterns seemed to be the only way of resistance or protest available to people who were practically put into position of slaves by an oppressive landlord or state, respectively.[^1]: https://bookwyrm.social/book/1302546/s/bekarty-panszczyzny-historia-buntow-chopskich@useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1J0z3i9cHVZ1oeX2 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T08:46:04.672201Z
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@bjeelka I use âcollectiveâ out of any better word. Thereâs an excellent book by Michel Heller âCogs in the Wheel: The Formation of Soviet Manâ who describes the Soviet society - as perceived and as formed by the state - as a mass of nameless and disposable pieces of human resource, that have no individual rights on their own and whose only value is to be the part of the larger state machine. How would you describe it other than âcollectiveâ?@useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1MgSUbvMYQaRrlwm by bjeelka@nafo.uk
2023-09-22T08:58:49Z
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@kravietz @useless_idiot @m0xee Yeah, right, I guess it's a different sense of the word. "Collective" as "I'm a cog in a big system, so I must spin this way as they said or they will replace me" rather than "I'm a cog in a big system so the system's interests are MY interests, so I must improve the system". There's no actual team play in totalitarian society, each cog doesn't actually give a shit about the "collective good", each cog is individualist, a survivor.
(DIR) Post #Aa1MgTHWzTgb2AkqCO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T09:27:10.803801Z
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@bjeelka That would be exactly the meaning. Iâm not fluent enough in English to determine the right word for âcollective as in we believe in collective values and decide things collectivelyâ versus âwe are being treated as a mass, not individualsâ. But maybe the concept of control is the key - the collective of the first type is driven by its members, the one of the second type (Soviet) is driven from outside.And youâve got a very good point about survival - they indeed are survivors, even as part of the âmass collectiveâ. This is I believe because the idea of the âcollective of nameless cogsâ is fundamentally flawed from psychological point of view, as regardless of how much you feel empowered by a larger organisation, you always feel an individual person on your own. This creates a constant centrifugal force in the such ânameless collectivesâ as its members still need to realise their own interests even if theyâre denied any subjectivity or even the very presence of any individual interests.@useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1Mpz20Jdpk6s1luS by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-09-22T09:11:10Z
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@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee does it relate to the "laying low" phenomenon in China?Some Chinese employees and youth don't seem to see a future and thus only do the minimum necessary.
(DIR) Post #Aa1NqKb4EfOcwr9qeu by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T09:40:06.834363Z
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@t_mkdf I see no reason why it would be a different phenomenon - if you look at it from a side, itâs really rational posture: all freedoms are taken away from you, including freedom of movement which is the ultimate freedom that allows any free person to go away from unsatisfactory or abusive conditions. You have no rights to protest about abuse, you have no rights at all (under serfdom even oneâs daughter or wife were subject to lawful abuse by the landlord). You have no right to accumulate personal wealth, and your earnings (even though you donât have actual salary) arenât in any way correlated to the amount of work you do. So even from purely energetic balance, the most rational choice is to do as little work as possible that doesnât get you punishment, which is also expense of energy. This way serfsAlso an important thing Iâve learned from the book was that the conditions of serfdom in Poland have changed dramatically between 15th to 17th century. Before serfdom was largely transactional: the landlord gives you protection and you pay back in unpaid work and share of your harvest, while the absolute amounts were negligible, like a few days of work per year. After 17th century these increased by orders of magnitude, up to three days per week (!).Most interestingly, there were many quasi-religious theories used by the nobility to explain why serfs should be serfs and nobles should be nobles, starting from misinterpretation of Bible to claim that serfs are ancestors of Ham while others are ancestors of others Noahâs sons. This had some similarity to the American highly edited âBible for slavesâ.At the end of the day however, any abusive situation can go only for so long and at the end of the day they abuser is always at risk of being impaled on a pitchfork, as it happened a lot during serf uprisings in Poland.@bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1PcYhPCt6qXWgPKq by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-22T09:54:44Z
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@kravietz Maybe "mass society", as in Mass Society Theory, is the closest term that ever gained traction in the West to describe what you mean ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_societyBut it's not exactly a well-known term.@bjeelka @useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1QIclUTq0NJQeUme by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T10:07:41.907679Z
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@andiias Very interesting, maybe itâs time to make it more popular :)Iâve just found that thereâs a Trotskyist term that seems to describe exactly what weâre talking about:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucratic_collectivism@bjeelka @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1QJVcsVYnPSe2tUm by bjeelka@nafo.uk
2023-09-22T10:00:51Z
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@kravietz @useless_idiot @t_mkdf @m0xee Yeah, this is exactly how it works. But if your whole society has lived under these abusive relationships with... well... itself for many centuries - it starts to develop some kind of learned hopelessness ideology, the notion that this is how the world works in general and it can't be any other way. This is of course based on experience, but this ideology, or rather anti-ideology of cynicism is exactly the root of most problems these societies have now.
(DIR) Post #Aa1R2Nuo1W9UZrpUg4 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T10:15:58.395299Z
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@bjeelka And that âstarts to develop some kind of learned hopelessnessâ has very good foundation from evolutionary biology point of view. Itâs a classic survival bias: those who we see in Russia today in their majority are descendants of those who complied. We donât see as many descendants of those who resisted, because their ancestors were killed or emigrated. And since many of these features, such as obedience to authority are likely heritable traits, such bias obviously changes the composition of the society favouring those who are more keen to comply.I realised that quite a while ago when visiting North Caucasus - people there like to believe theyâre descendants of proud Circassians who bravely fought against Tsarist army in 18-19th century, but at the same time you donât see much of that bravery among them today. But then you realise that during the Muhajir (Circassian genocide) only 5% of the native population (!) survived in former Circassia with the rest physically exterminated or exiled to Turkey, Jordan etc. This means that todayâs Circassians are in their majority descendants of not those who fought, but of those who complied or otherwise made deal with the occupiersâŠ@useless_idiot @t_mkdf @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1R3hcuDsYa065MA4 by bjeelka@nafo.uk
2023-09-22T10:08:50Z
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@kravietz @useless_idiot @t_mkdf @m0xee We Ukrainians are alive and exist as a nation today because some of us (not all though) managed to preserve through centuries this idea of things CAN be different, that abuser CAN be impaled on a pitchfork, and what comes after that is not necessary even more evil abuser coming, but freedom is possible in principle.
(DIR) Post #Aa1S6vtNjubt4GtcI4 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T10:25:44.256771Z
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@bjeelka Itâs never âall of usâ of course, because each society is a complex mix of various character traits. But in dynamic systems, and society is hell of a dynamic system, what matters is the significant part (not necessarily a majority) that is able to drive the population towards a specific state (attractor). In case of Ukraine and Poland that attractor is non-submission to external controllers, in case of Russian society the attractor is leaning more towards submission, as result of historic forming of these societies.For example, the same book on Polish serf uprisings describes a notable phenomenon of serfs escaping from exceptionally abusive landlords, and one of the popular destinations was⊠Zaporozhian Sich, or more generally the territories of todayâs Ukraine where no established rule of either Tsar nor Polish king nor Polish magnates was established. I assume the same process happened from the Muscovite direction too. This way Sich naturally attracted people of different ethnic backgrounds but united in their entrepreneurial and non-submissive character traits.@useless_idiot @t_mkdf @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1pr2nqfwoalfGSky by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-22T14:31:14Z
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@kravietzMass Society Theory seems to have had its day, although I haven't had time to look into the why more closely ...https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/9780470674871.wbespm473 (last two sections)I'm not nearly as well read as you with regards to communism, but it seems to me that Bureaucratic Collectivism very quickly became a term used by communists only. I was trying to find an approach attempted through social psychology, instead. It seems to me that's where the phenomenon you describe belongs. @bjeelka @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1s8HXfKU7tJM2goC by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T15:19:34.073359Z
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@andiias Very interesting reading⊠What they describe seems to echo what Erich Fromm described in âEscape from Freedomâ, in the context of the authoritarian regimes.But these are just general ideas that sometimes match, sometimes donât, as noted at the end of article.The primary problem with these theories is that they seem to be trying to make a general theory out of a phenomenon that is multi-variate and thus extremely sensitive to local specifics of the analysed population, local meaning both geographically and temporally (at this given period).Due to how dynamic systems work, the components that make the theory consistent with evidence for population X at time M, will be likely no longer consistent for even a neighbour population Y, and even less so for both at time M+1.To describe modern populations correctly we need to talk of statistical clustering of various social features (âpopulation X has 40% people tending to prefer authoritarian ruleâ) while remembering they do change over time. @bjeelka @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa1vAAaGTCpyAlqke8 by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-22T15:42:12Z
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@kravietz Excellent points. I have myself over time become suspicious of grand theories.The only caveat (and it's one I'm only smelling, I can't prove anything) is that I'm not sure the phenomenon of why and how manipulated masses act can be fully expressed as data, as variables. If that isn't the case, even the best-researched statistics will still be limited, and we may still need theorists to describe, rather than to calculate, what's going on. @bjeelka @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa2AjKrJl4MJUK3K6K by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-09-22T11:06:32Z
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@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee I would leave evolutionary biology out of it.The time span is just too short. But the structural and cultural thread is certainly there.
(DIR) Post #Aa2AjLeEpBUTw2wOLw by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T18:47:56.855969Z
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@t_mkdf @bjeelka I wouldnât separate biology from sociology and psychology, as these are both closely connected - even as the reference to ânature vs nurtureâ hints. While we describe ânature vs nurtureâ as a âdebateâ, I donât think it really is one. We call it debate because we like dichotomies but itâs really matter of balance between the two and our inability to position the balance in one particular point of our liking.Quoting from âThe WEIRDest People in the Worldâ (Joseph Henrich, 2020) which Iâve just started reading:Beliefs, practices, technologies, and social nors - culture - can shape our brains, biology and psychology, including our motivations, mental abilities and decision making biases. You canât separate âcultureâ from âpsychologyâ or âpsychologyâ from âbiologyâ because culture physically rewires our brains and thereby shapes how we think.He gives very specific, biological examples of how literacy physically changes human brain, thickens corpus callosum and moves some typical activity zones (such as face recognition) to other regions. These changes are induced by a voluntary (well, not for school children) act of learning to read and write.Of course this doesnât directly impact on genetics (that would be Lamarckism) but it doesnât have to - if traits such as obedience to authority (or attitude to risk-taking, or empathy, or egoism etc) are at least partially genetically driven, then distribution of these traits in given population will significantly impact the social system it will erect. Thereâs evidence they are heritable to some extent.[^1]And the distribution may be just as well result of its evolutionary suitability at some point in the past (just as colour of human skin was distributed geographically) but also in secondary order, it could be result of social actions. To put that bluntly, if a society physically exterminates people more keen to show empathy or less obedient to authority, distribution of individuals with these traits dramatically falls.[^1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886913001384@useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa2MBftCGDFmJgeBxA by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-09-22T19:22:51Z
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@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee as a former life sciences phd: nope, not in that timeframe.You'd have to do very thorough (and dark) eugenics to get to that.
(DIR) Post #Aa2MBr3AlSlkvoOoWu by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-22T20:56:18.924534Z
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@t_mkdfI assume this applies to the last paragraph â can you elaborate, why not? I'm not in any part supporter of eugenics, just as I'm not supporter of mass killings, but Soviets (and Nazis) did not have such constraints and we're talking about long-term social consequences of their crimes. If they exterminated millions of people from each population, I can't see how it could have not changed its genetic distribution.@bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa2R2HKug6CfKbwz7Q by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-09-22T21:50:46Z
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@t_mkdf > life sciences phdWow, I didn't know not only that there is PhD in that, but there is an intersection of natural science and social sciences. Interesting đČ@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot
(DIR) Post #Aa37laT6aWOJm64MyW by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-09-23T05:49:33Z
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@m0xee @kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot biophysicist to be precise.Anyhow: of course there is nature AND nurture.But genetic differences between distinct populations are smaller than genetic differences between individuals (except when you are a Habsburg on a family reunion).
(DIR) Post #Aa3JwsRTIlSk9dSHmi by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-23T08:05:56.748427Z
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@t_mkdfI'm completely abstracting from Nazi and Soviet goals and methods. These were morbid alone and both of them indeed had nothing to do with science (regardless of what Soviets claimed of "scientific Marxism" and Nazis of "scientific racism").Soviet 70 years long campaign of mass killings and repressions however resulted in very tangible bias in the society, for example almost complete collapse of small and medium scale farming which turned 1990-2020 Russia into a food importer (only after 2014 they partially rebuilt large scale farming, with help of Western companies). Their efforts to create New Soviet Man kind of worked, just not quite the way they claimed â in 1930's Soviet press used the term Homo Sovieticus in entirely unironical sense, claiming the Soviet upbringing actually leads to creation of a new human race, superior to the bourgeois one (again, echoes of Lamarckism with early 20th century racial theories).It was only in 1980's when Soviet dissidents such as Mikhail Heller started to use the term "Homo Sovieticus" to describe the society stripped from any own identity, any responsibility, entirely opportunistic and ready to pray to any regime, and ready to switch their beliefs on daily basis. As we see today, Heller's description was kind of prophetic.There's certainly a cultural factor here. What I can't explain by culture alone is that Russians and Ukrainians (or Poles), who are genetically very close indeed, at the same time show drastically different attitudes towards authority and drastically different model of constructing society. And these patterns not only survive through generations, but are actually reinforced by huge waves of migrations, just as the one that happened in 2022 from Russia.At the same time as we can clearly point at haplogroup clusters that distinguish Western Slavs from Eastern (speaking of Poles or Ukrainians makes no sense at this level), would you categorically exclude the possibility that genetic traits determining e.g. obedience to authority aren't distributed along with these haplogroups? @m0xee @bjeelka @useless_idiot
(DIR) Post #Aa3K2uDvagqxPvzkbA by subpanel@mastodon.social
2023-09-22T18:02:43Z
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@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee https://youtu.be/QUHNKCkXYes?si=ZiG6oCGJvj153KW1&t=506https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BDhttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/LDARhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_actionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%95%D1%84%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82_%D1%85%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D1%84%D1%84%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82_%D1%85%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%97_%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%96 https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyuczona_bezradno%C5%9B%C4%87 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%8B%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%89%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8Chttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Security_Service#Creation_of_the_FSB https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D0%B0_%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%97_%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D1%96%D1%97 https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalna_S%C5%82u%C5%BCba_Bezpiecze%C5%84stwa_Federacji_Rosyjskiej https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebranding https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/RebrandingWAIT OUT
(DIR) Post #Aa3K2v5SNffg5x2V28 by subpanel@mastodon.social
2023-09-22T22:17:54Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee [continued] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80#Ukrainian
(DIR) Post #Aa3QMEAcFmGAVX2gqW by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-09-23T08:20:51Z
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@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee yes.There is a lot of evidence for cultural and historical trends leading to this.And none for genetics.The grandkids of russian immigrants to the US will be hardly any different on the "political submissiveness" scale than those with Irish, German or Polish ancestry.From my family's history: the compliance with the Nazis was very much a factor of assimilation into German society. The ones growing up Slovene Vs the one grown up in the Hitler Youth
(DIR) Post #Aa3QMExXJtOKxFvl68 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-23T09:17:45.041961Z
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@t_mkdf But any immigrants to the US will be at the same time emigrants from Russia/Poland/elsewhere, so specifically those who could not bear the conditions at home. While I agree thereâs not much evidence for the ânatureâ impact on societal systems, I donât see much studies looking into it either - the study on âobedience to authorityâ is from 2013, and the below article indicates these studies at all started around 2005, calling it âgenopoliticsâ:https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160932723000315 So it seems to be a very young discipline and while I do understand all the concerns about association of anything relating to genetics and culture with eugenics, I donât see any such risk in studying these relations in contrast to trying to actively change genetic composition of a society. One reason to study them is right in front of our eyes: Russia. Who everyone in 1991 naively believed will happily turn towards democracy and become a peaceful country. It was all based on an assumption that we all have absolutely identical perception of the world, identical emotions and social norms. But the last 30 years clearly demonstrated that talking to Russians about democracy, human rights and rule of law was just as effective as discussing colours with a colour-blind person: they may listen you with attention and kindly agree, but their perception of the world is dramatically different from yours.There certainly is a cultural aspect to it, but I think persistence of this effect goes well beyond culture alone. If we accept that e.g. sexual orientation is outcome of a complex mix of ânature and nurtureâ factors, then I donât see why we shouldnât bee researching the same factors in social attitudes. Whatâs in it for myself is not to try to change Russiansâ genetics or anything like that, but learn how to talk to them in a way that will get to them and how to coexist with them peacefully while not putting my own safety at risk of someoneâs naive ideas like Wandel durch Handel.@bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa3YhT2GyjQOKImLdQ by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-09-23T10:06:50Z
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@kravietz @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee to my understanding a lot of these studies have been disproven (see criticism of the "bell curve").So you see the emigration as proof of your line of thought:But a) this emigration is rather recent and b) did probably not alter the genetic composition of the societies they migrated from.And c) what about the oppression of the Muscovite State then? Did it have a genetic impact or not? And why don't migrants from zarist russia pass on this obedience?
(DIR) Post #Aa3YhTpu0D7ioDzyzY by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-23T10:51:13.973154Z
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@t_mkdfWell, the case of migrants is IMHO easy to explain â let's hypothesise that I myself have either an inherited or novel mutation that makes me less risk averse, more prone to adventure and less obedient to social norms. I live in a highly conservative country with moral norms being an antithesis of these features. Of course, I'll be much more likely to emigrate as the composition of my individual features is incompatible with the features of the environment.This way I remove myself from the gene pool of my home population, and this heritable or novel mutation no longer reproduces there. But of course wherever I've moved to, I'm still willing to reproduce and these mutations will enrich the target population as my descendants will reproduce here too.At the same time, if I'm lucky enough the target population will have completely different social norms, in which case my "anarchist mutation" will not really have a chance of manifestation simply because the environment is less incompatible than the original one. I think this very well explains the phenomenon of migrants: activation of specific social features very much depends on the environment. @bjeelka @useless_idiot @m0xee
(DIR) Post #Aa4oQCWktbMkd1ml4S by m0xEE@breloma.m0xee.net
2023-09-24T01:22:01.680092Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@bjeelka Extremely atomized! That too is a product of lack of genuine national culture â everyone feels that what we have now is fake, there is no real sense of national unity. We are told that we, unlike those Western individualists, always have collective in mind â nothing can be further from truth than this and everyone who has ever lived in Russia knows that it's utter bullshit. When Russian gets slightly wealthier so he can afford living not in a barn or a concrete box, the first thing he does is erect a fence. Look at the "elites" we have now â they are a perfect example of this. Not even fences, but concrete walls that you can't even see through, up to four meters high (!). There is this popular investigation by Navalny about an "elite" apartment building that didn't have windows on one of it's side because that side faces the estate occupied by Igor Sechin, head of RosNeft đ€ŁAnd everyone does that â the first thing after escaping involuntary "collectiveness". This is why even Moscow had been a city of fences at one point â in late 2000s early 2010s I had to take a 3 block long side-route to get to the other side of otherwise impassible fence, and it wasn't some industrial zone or territory special in any other way â just normal apartment buildings and the adjacent school, that is no joke! There are no real communities and not a speck of trust in their neighbours. Now these fences are mostly gone â torn down by Moscow's government because this makes the city not look "European", and yet it's not because people got different, but because they got forced into this "collectiveness" again.This only just started a decade ago or so, when still scarce middle class became capable of collective action â people started trying to decide for themselves, not waiting for the state to make decisions for them. And simultaneously the most popular protests started â people started realizing that they just don't want the state who always knows better. And eventually all of it got crushed â middle class became few again, a lot of people just left, those who stayed are trying to keep low profile. And the society is as atomized as it ever was đ©@kravietz @useless_idiot @m0xee