Post AZC8nnfr05Y7ICmO3c by cshentrup@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by cshentrup@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AWsnl7C10LQnQrjl1U by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-06-20T11:58:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
If you are a white leftist and you talk “both parties are the same they are both capitalist” you will loose most of your black audience. I think it ought to be obvious that this isn’t because blackfolks love Democrats (in most cases, there is always someone being simple in any group) —no. it’s because the difference between the parties is material and obvious and these are unstable times. When I hear such talk I wonder if the speaker is working on voter suppression.
(DIR) Post #AWsnl8YjvLCdfdNQ5A by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-06-20T12:04:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Voting brings me no joy — but I never miss an election out of a kind of stubborn spite. I’ve never heard anyone explain how having all the marginalized and left leaning people not vote would be more annoying to the Democrats and Republicans than if we all do vote— and for the Democrats especially in the primaries. I also don’t think voting is real political engagement, but it’s kind of the bare minimum. Even if you do a write-in for every office.
(DIR) Post #AWsnldgGDQdeBw8Mbo by Nonya_Bidniss@mas.to
2023-06-20T12:41:35Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@futurebird I feel exactly this way about it, too. In fact I really feel leftists who make these ridiculous claims are bad faith actors working to put the country in the hands of authoritarians. If that's not it, the alternative is they're simply not smart.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nhQ2FzKZtPKfZI by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-26T23:31:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird capitalism just means allowing people to trade things voluntarily for mutual benefit. it doesn't mean you can't have pigovian taxes, etc. I think people criticizing capitalism don't understand what the word means.
(DIR) Post #AZC8niVkCFUXHP0k6a by anubis2814@friendica.myportal.social
2023-08-27T18:08:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @futurebirdCapitalism and the free market are not the same thing. Two definitions of it came up in Marx's time, one being Marx himself and both are equally legitimate. They both involve someone with money using that money to invest by buying the means of production then almost always using that money to strip excess labor off of the employees though imbalanced bargaining power. Marx's version did not include the free Market as essential which is why Mutualists like Proudhon believed in a form of free market worker owned socialist cooperatives. Now add capitalism to the free market where Not only corporations have to compete with each other to survive, they also have to compete for investment from the haves, they are even more likely to steal from the have not workers just to survive, and certainly more likely to dump externalities like pollution on the rest of us..
(DIR) Post #AZC8njOKvHA00iYLCK by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T18:11:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird there's no such thing as "excess labor", except in the case of monopolies. marx didn't understand basic economic concepts like subjective value. I mean he was utterly clueless about everything economic.and yes they are the same thing, effectively. to have a market you have to have private ownership.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nk22Xev3zr835E by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T18:13:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird it is irrational to enforce worker ownership. allowing workers to sell their ownership if they feel it is to their benefit can only help them. to prevent them from doing this is harmful. I beg of marxists to take econ 101 out of bare minimum. it is an ideology totally bereft of evidence.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nkhs28Nc5ahSHg by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T18:13:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird like I just got a bunch of equity in my company, and I sold it because the cash is more useful to me at this point in time. I'm currently doing remodeling to prevent leaking in our basement. If I couldn't sell that equity, that would be detrimental to me. why do you hate workers?
(DIR) Post #AZC8nlNLXvYaAE6Zvs by anubis2814@friendica.myportal.social
2023-08-27T18:33:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @futurebird Why do YOU hate workers? Marx was about pre-distribution not redistribution (other than the stuff robbed from us (mostly but the nobles in his case) The ability to have a say in your business would mean you would have more money in the long run as things would be more likely to be air and less exploitative. Meaning you would have enough money to not have to sell that equity in the first place. You would own your own labor, not have to sell it at a reduced price to some faceless person who already had enough money and was just using that money to make more money by exploiting you.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nmD6RUxOkkJubY by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T18:37:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird there is no such thing as exploiting you. it's a voluntary transaction. You are a perfect example of the economic illiteracy of Marxism.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nmxBg9ov3fsiR6 by anubis2814@friendica.myportal.social
2023-08-27T18:45:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @futurebird Exploitation doesn't exist? Hmmm, if a corporation isn't exploiting labor its exploiting foreign labor, if its not exploiting foreign labor its exploiting the environment aka robbing the commons via externalities. We wouldn't have this climate crisis if all interactions were fair and just. Most laws against them are never enforced. When you have the power of the state over the power of the worker or just people living on the planet there is nothing voluntary about it. You pick between two shitty choices or starve and die. A company store with more steps.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nnfr05Y7ICmO3c by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T18:46:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird if they are emitting negative externalities then you need Pigovian taxes to internalize that. That's different than a VOLUNTARY agreement with a worker, that the worker is only agreeing to because it makes them better off than they otherwise would have been. You're deeply confused like all marxists.laws not being enforced is a political problem not a problem with the economic system. to fix this you need voting reform, something I'm an expert onhttps://www.rangevoting.org/LivesSaved
(DIR) Post #AZC8noPwEkPdb8LBtA by anubis2814@friendica.myportal.social
2023-08-27T18:55:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @futurebird Insulting me makes neither of us smarter. I haven;'t learned anything from you I didn't already know, and you certainly learned jack squat from me because you already know everything. I was lied to about Marx from childhood. Many Marxists translated his ideas badly using cherry picked Ideas. Most capitalists took his ideas and simplified them down to sound bite straw man ideas that of course sound stupid and unreasonable. Money is power, the more you have the more power and influence you have. The less you have the less bargaining power you have. the more balance you have in that the more bargaining power everyone has at getting what they want. Pigovian taxes will not fix that and exploitation will occur no matter what. The belief that those with out have way more fair power to bargain than they do is a big misunderstanding on your part, a just-world fallacy, unless you believe hierarchy is good and natural.
(DIR) Post #AZC8npAjQlqJwGEYpE by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T19:17:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird I've told you numerous things you demonstrably didn't already know. whether you've learned them is another matter. now you again demonstrate another misunderstanding. bargaining power is about supply and demand, not about how much money you have. https://open.lib.umn.edu/principleseconomics/chapter/3-3-demand-supply-and-equilibrium/> Pigovian taxes will not fix that and exploitation will occur no matter what.You've cited no evidence that there's any such thing as "exploitation".
(DIR) Post #AZC8npwaYq7kKgcmQ4 by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T19:39:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird The way to fix inequality is to redistribute wealth. But to do it without dead weight loss so you don't shrink the pie while redistributing it. this is literally econ 101 and you marxists never understand it.https://medium.com/@clayshentrup/market-equitism-d98565eeb845
(DIR) Post #AZC8nqhjjXq0gugQuO by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T20:03:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird > The belief that those with out have way more fair power to bargain than they do is a big misunderstanding on your part, a just-world fallacy, unless you believe hierarchy is good and natural.the statement proves you don't understand how equilibrium prices work. One of the most basic issues in the whole economics. You have utterly no clue what you're talking about.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nrOdA49Ipwkglc by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T20:05:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird > unless you believe hierarchy is good and natural."hierarchy" is irrelevant. your welfare is affected by goods and services you have available to consume. the wealth of people you transact with is utterly irrelevant to your welfare. You are profoundly confused.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nrz8yJM8fBpqgC by anubis2814@friendica.myportal.social
2023-08-27T23:01:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @futurebird No, you are confused. i can do that too.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nsb4hHhIYpa8no by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T23:04:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird but you can't do the crucial part of making a coherent argument that is actually correct.talking about hierarchy is empirical proof of your confusion. how much food you have in your belly, or the abundance of medicine for diseases, these are things that actually affect human welfare. the wealth disparity between you and someone you trade with does not directly affect your welfare. You are talking nonsense, and I can prove it.
(DIR) Post #AZC8ntBaVWu8O4fIiO by anubis2814@friendica.myportal.social
2023-08-27T23:13:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @futurebirdI'm a scientists and I understand what empirical means. You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. And instead of trying to get to a mutual understanding or at least closer to understanding my point of view you want to throw insults that I'm stupid. Which does nothing to make someone smarter or more likely to listen. Its not how the human brain takes in information. You can't prove anything. Like I said, nothing you have said is anything I didn't know. Much of it, in the system you are discussing is as correct as it can be. You sound like a Ron Pauler (which I was in 2007-2009) who watched a youtube video on economics 101 and acting like you know everything. Economics is much closer to philosophy than science, and there are a lot of different economic philosophies you just flat our ignore or are ignorant to that the biased colleges have suppressed to get donations. .
(DIR) Post #AZC8ntq05HEMPPZZho by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T23:15:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird microeconomics is more than a science, it's mostly just provable mathematics. for instance if we spend $100 buying you a benefit that you value at $70, that is $30 of dead weight loss. That is an empirical fact. so by calling economics closer to philosophy than science, you again prove that you don't understand. You cited absolutely no evidence to support anything you're saying, including this hand wavy assertion that I don't know what empirical means. try using evidence.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nuCgivNXXmBh4K by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T23:07:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird If I ask a person how much better they feel after eating a meal to sate their hunger, or taking an antibiotic to cure a painful illness, do they need to first go find out how wealthy the party they purchased it from was to make that determination? No, of course not. so hierarchy was confusion. completely missing the point. The point is human welfare
(DIR) Post #AZC8nucv9OMWr8SdxQ by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T23:17:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird and again you try to use ad hominem and labeling by connecting me with Ron Paul, rather than trying to make an actual argument about something. "you sound like somebody who just read economics 101 and nothing else" is not an argument, and it certainly doesn't excuse you for not understanding basic econ 101 concepts.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nvFuoPYQo4hmjo by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T23:19:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird it is also trivially logically provable that paying someone above the market rate for their labor is equivalent to charity. which you can be mad about, but it's equivalent to being mad that someone isn't giving away all their wealth until they are as poor as the poorest person in the universe. this isn't "philosophy", it's logically provable.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nvsYUkSkjumdxw by anubis2814@friendica.myportal.social
2023-08-27T23:22:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @futurebird Why is there a market rate? In a fair system it would be because that is what people were willing to work for, but since the 80s when unions were crushed wages all stagnated and the rich colluded to keep the market rate artificially low. We are all being underpaid because of this suppression including you.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nwZ5waUSrqgcGu by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T23:24:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird asking why there is a market rate again proves that you don't understand basic economics. Unions don't make rates fair, they distort market rates above what they would naturally be. You demonstrably understand nothing about economics.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nxKF7ICjE4kGlE by alper@sfba.social
2023-08-28T12:40:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @anubis2814 @futurebird Yup. Got it. Billionaires that can buy politicians, judges, media and PR/Lobby firms are natural and unions are unnatural. Cool. I'm here to tell you to stop digging but you don't look like you will. You seem to bet on becoming a billionaire. Good luck.
(DIR) Post #AZC8ny0QaRwrKuTxVw by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-28T13:57:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alper @anubis2814 @futurebird i never said political corruption is good. i literally co-founded one of the most prominent election reform non-profits in the usa. you're not making contact with my argument. you are confused.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nyFJh5rG55Rqim by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-27T23:25:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@anubis2814 @futurebird in an efficient market, prices work so that any two things of equivalent price could be exchanged via a hypothetical series of trades. That is trivially provable and it's the whole point. If you distort this you create dead weight loss. inefficient allocation.
(DIR) Post #AZC8nygG4vPPQe3MiO by alper@sfba.social
2023-08-28T14:30:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @anubis2814 @futurebird where did i say you are saying it is "good"? it is a part of the tug of War which the other side you called unnatural. By the way, why did you cofound that unnatural nonprofit? It doesn't add up. See? Probably not. Anyways, keep digging. Good luck. I'll stay "confused"
(DIR) Post #AZC8nzMRY59XXTn3T6 by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-28T14:31:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alper @anubis2814 @futurebird i never used the term "unnatural". you are definitely confused.
(DIR) Post #AZC8o056s0sjm0gj5c by alper@sfba.social
2023-08-28T14:56:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @anubis2814 @futurebird "...they distort market rates above what they would naturally be."
(DIR) Post #AZC8o0iSViMDk369QG by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-28T14:59:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alper @anubis2814 @futurebird ah, you were paraphrasing. my point was correct tho. unions act like a monopoly and distort prices.
(DIR) Post #AZC8o1KOEghNdgqRXs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-08-28T15:06:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cshentrup @alper @anubis2814 Is it at all important that a union generally represents the interests of 1000s of people while a private company that holds a monopoly may only represent as few as one person?Still, in either case monopoly is a natural (and often effective) strategy that emerges in any free market.
(DIR) Post #AZC8o27fHU786VtnLk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-08-28T16:21:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird Monopolies are supposed to be illegal. Sadly its not enforced as it should be.@cshentrup @alper @anubis2814
(DIR) Post #AZC8oXYgP595bHmJGa by cshentrup@mastodon.social
2023-08-28T16:21:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @futurebird @alper @anubis2814 true
(DIR) Post #AZEdq3rXGjteyTinFg by fivetonsflax@tilde.zone
2023-08-29T18:20:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@CptSuperlative @futurebird The indignant sputtering and table-thumping is too funny for me to block.
(DIR) Post #AZEdq4YmfwUX8bxKfA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-08-29T18:24:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fivetonsflax @CptSuperlative You have just shown yourself to be completely illogical and totally ignorant of Economics 101 by admitting that you are not serious but rather amused. Giggling like a small child! I am not laughing, mister.Please learn what a Pareto Equilibrium is. Your lack of random technical terms is exhausting! /s
(DIR) Post #AZEdq5KHpKUNVwBGhk by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2023-08-29T21:18:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird @fivetonsflax @CptSuperlative Wow. That was... interesting. Y'all have more patience than I. I'm rather awed.