Post AYeUOttXcbqPp5xZGy by Lazycog@mastodon.online
(DIR) More posts by Lazycog@mastodon.online
(DIR) Post #AYPl8zyM2dYxtAocAC by nanoelquant@c.im
2023-06-29T20:48:25Z
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Precisely. #Ukraine #NATO #neutrality #bullshit
(DIR) Post #AYPl93Sb4eXKhpzJDc by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-04T11:14:10Z
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@nanoelquant I think this leaves out the part where #NATO started a 20 year #bullshit war in #Afghanistan, disasterous involvement in #Libya, and key NATO members invaded #Iraq because they wanted its oil. Sure, joining NATO could stop #Russia from invading, but then you're contributing to invading other countries.
(DIR) Post #AYPl94U3GjIJsdfz7o by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-04T11:24:13Z
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@nanoelquant And also consider that #NATO and #US directly supported terrorist militants in Kosovo, where they remain problematic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army
(DIR) Post #AYeUOqSqNPhrBQRhk8 by nanoelquant@c.im
2023-08-04T16:45:04Z
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@eighthave kind reminder - for us, there is no "but". In order to have these funny idle talks about whether some war is bullshit or choice between militants and genocidal morons it is necessary to stay alive. For Ukraine and for other countries near russian border the question of NATO is the matter of existence, other things, if any, go later.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOrOytGD85je8MS by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-04T21:10:14Z
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@nanoelquant Switzerland and Sweden have been neutral for centuries, they were not taken over by the Nazis or Soviets, unlike all of their neighbors. So saying military alliances will save a country from invasions is overlooking actual history. It is not that simple.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOsLTNmzz190qX2 by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-05T08:05:10Z
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@nanoelquant Joining military alliances also means getting dragged into the wars of other countries. You can see that over the history of #NATO. Right now, it is plain to see how Putin is leaning on Belarus to join in the war of Ukraine, and tried with Kazakhstan too.Consider #Trump does not seem to like NATO and could be the next US President https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/04/john-bolton-trump-nato-2024NATO won't let Ukraine join until the war is settled. After that, its not clear Ukraine benefits. Neutrality might work better
(DIR) Post #AYeUOtAWJzpdZStc6C by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-05T08:27:14Z
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@nanoelquant And Austria and Finland provide possible examples of how neutrality could work for Ukraine. Austria was neutral while Soviet tanks rolled into our neighbors Hungary and Czechoslovakia. They did not invade Austria, even though militarily, it would have been simple for the Soviets to take over Austria. They had done it before. I know at lot less about it, but #Finland's situation during World War Two looks quite similar to Ukraine's now. Finland was neutral yet not invaded again.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOttXcbqPp5xZGy by Lazycog@mastodon.online
2023-08-05T08:43:39Z
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@eighthave @nanoelquant This is not true in Finland's case. Soviet Union tried to Invade Finland and partly succeeded and took a big chunk of Finland. Finland fought back with the help of Sweden and was an Ally of the axis powers (Yes, Nazi Germany). The fighting back was enough to cause Soviet Union enough damage that the Soviets decided not to advance further.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Warhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War
(DIR) Post #AYeUOudypwzW97geem by nanoelquant@c.im
2023-08-05T16:03:14Z
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@Lazycog @eighthaveIndeed. Moreover, AFAIR the neutrality of #Finland after #WWII was, basically, forced by conditions of negotiations rather than voluntarily chosen. And now Finland decided to join #NATO (as well as Sweden), probably because they remember their history quite good.The purpose of soviet invasion to Hungary and Czechoslovakia was completely different.For Ukraine, neutrality has *already* failed.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOvQXvNq6ZkPRM8 by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-05T21:55:22Z
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@nanoelquant @Lazycog Austria's neutrality was also forced by a deal between the Soviet Union, France, UK, and USA. But it has worked, and is immensely popular in Austria now. Finland's situation now is quite different than both Ukraine and Austria. Finland was already spending more on than NATO's 2% requirement, and it has a long border with Russia. It will be interesting to see how the Finns feel about NATO when they have to join in some pointless yet devastating invasion like Afghanistan.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOw75NDrohgJPf6 by nanoelquant@c.im
2023-08-06T14:23:28Z
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@eighthave @Lazycog "But it has worked" when you don't lock your door, but there is no thief, technically it also "works".Before ca. 1990, there was actually no choice for Austria, then before ca.2000 there was no need (the Cold war was like "won"), later there was no sense (Austria found itself mostly between democratic EU/NATO states which would obviously not plan invasion). Technically, the discussion now is purely theoretical, even if hypothetically russia occupies Poland and Czechia, the formal Austria status would not be too much important anymore (I mean, that the course of military actions on such scale would be barely dependent on formal questions).But the things are notably dependent on the geographic location.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOwycACgXNhMA64 by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-12T08:18:09Z
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@nanoelquant @Lazycog yes exactly, Austria was forced by military invasion and occupation to become neutral. That occupation was mostly Russians and directed from Moscow. Now, neutrality is immensely popular with Austrians, and all but one minor political party fully support it. It can work very well, much better than any military alliance, so #Ukraine really should keep it in consideration, especially because its clear they won't be allowed into #NATO any time soon.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOxqquY4Q5ujTdY by nanoelquant@c.im
2023-08-12T08:31:56Z
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@eighthave @Lazycog I think that not Austrians will decide when NATO will consider acception of new members or other forms of collaboration. Neutrality is not about absence of 'fast ticket' somewhere, it is about strategic plans for decades ahead - in this question, what is the point to declare " we will be neutral forever"? Unless you are surrounded by NATO countries, surely.Right now Ukraine implements NATO military standards just to be able to use Western military assistance - so, the coherence is *already* vital, isn't it?
(DIR) Post #AYeUOy4K6SqUlh2EdM by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-12T08:25:23Z
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@nanoelquant @Lazycog we also have a giant monument in one of the main squares of #Vienna thanking the #Soviet army for liberating us. We have to keep it forever as part of the treaty that ended the occupation. People hated it for a long time, but in the end, it does not really limit our freedom, and it was an important symbol for the #Soviets. I think that it was a brilliant move by the Austrian negotiators to accept it.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOywCs7wnSoFGca by szbalint@x0r.be
2023-08-12T08:42:01Z
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@nanoelquant @eighthave @Lazycog Austria joining NATO would also be about contributing to the common defense of democratic Europe. And Austria would need to clean house in terms of the free-for-all security/spying situation in Vienna.Essentially Austria is not neutral right now, we just simply refuse to contribute our fair share. It’s very convenient to say “ah but we’re neutral” and not have to deal with strategic decisions.
(DIR) Post #AYeUOzpVYWBQEK7Qoq by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-12T08:51:21Z
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@szbalint @nanoelquant @Lazycog That logic presumes that NATO decreases war. The evidence is pretty clear that NATO just shifts wars outside of NATO. That is not anything I think a democratic and anti-war Europe should take part in. That line of reasoning is exactly what the PR firms of NATO weapons industry is spending lots of money pushing. Austria contributes by supporting global diplomacy, there is a good reason why things like the Iran Nuclear Deal is handled in Vienna.
(DIR) Post #AYeUP0ka8Jpx5Kp0mO by eighthave@social.librem.one
2023-08-12T08:57:12Z
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@szbalint @nanoelquant @Lazycog The hard part is that there is big money in selling weapons, and not for selling neutrality and peace. That gives the military industrial complexes around the world big money to spend to sway opinions to keep the money gushing towards weapons, both in #NATO and in #Russia. And more NATO members means more money to spend on proxy wars like Ukraine, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, etc.