Post AYeGYTtfjmMsjIhAPY by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
(DIR) More posts by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
(DIR) Post #AYdMzVZQ1ruoIyX5Oa by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-08-11T21:45:33.109711Z
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since hashicorp abandoned foss...what are we replacing packer and vagrant with
(DIR) Post #AYdy6OzmZL6mFF0xSy by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T04:41:23.772Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn@blob.cat I'm happily using neither, but I hadn't heard of this. Does this mean I'm going to have a busy week migrating away from Terraform at work?
(DIR) Post #AYdyd9ekcY4OE9nL9s by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-08-12T04:47:17.931725Z
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@tyil :blobcatshrug2: only if your workplace cares about the BSL. I doubt most of them do.
(DIR) Post #AYdys36fFrpQG0xAJM by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T04:50:00.168Z
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@icedquinn@blob.cat I also don't know what the BSL is... yet.Do you have a link where I could read more?
(DIR) Post #AYdzaosoz2CpAxpJ8i by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-08-12T04:58:04.945871Z
4 likes, 2 repeats
@tyil its where corposhits go when they take their mask off and reveal their FOSS interests were purely marketing.https://www.hashicorp.com/blog/hashicorp-adopts-business-source-license
(DIR) Post #AYdztyqQAiAtZXqAKm by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T05:01:32.984Z
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@icedquinn@blob.cat Thanks for the link!As far as I'm aware, the F in FOSS was missing from HashiCorps marketing scheme to begin with. It's sort-off free, but it was certainly lacking in the spirit of free software. This is always a good indicator that the whole freedom thing isn't taken seriously, and will likely vanish in the future.
(DIR) Post #AYdzzfDI4ZcWQPFOqm by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T05:02:35.837Z
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@icedquinn@blob.cat When Mitchell and I founded HashiCorp, we made the decision to make our products open sourceOnly one sentence in and they're already working hard to make sure that F is not allowed.
(DIR) Post #AYe0IACZb5ZdkKjWTY by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-08-12T05:05:55.964519Z
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@tyil it was always open core but the open side was foss. now the open core shitters are switching to licenses that make the code wholly useless, because now you're supposed to track the menagerie of exemptions if you borrow code from them.
(DIR) Post #AYe0rmFm785dtfDG0u by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T05:12:20.937Z
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@icedquinn@blob.cat It's sad to see, but this is what you get when you contribute to corpos with a CLA and no GPL variant. Too bad all the Cool Hackers(tm) love CLAs (and CoCs), and hate the GPL because they just hate not having the freedom to fuck over other people for shits and giggles (and mostly extorting profits).
(DIR) Post #AYe3pADQrm4TCxYvui by doctormo@fosstodon.org
2023-08-12T05:39:57Z
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Calm your heels there @tyil. Codes of conduct have nothing to do with the GPL, we use both. Good projects should have community moderation at their core.Back to the topic at hand. HashiCorp's BSL license is a confusing mess right from the first paragraph. They're either granting more after four years which seems unlikely or trying to retroactively revoke the MPL which is not possible.Talk about failing the foss-economics exam. God I know money in foss is hard work, but still.@icedquinn
(DIR) Post #AYe3pB6NZU1VxNGoYi by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T05:45:29.125Z
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@doctormo@fosstodon.org @icedquinn@blob.cat I put the CoC close to the CLA, as they're both ways to enforce control over your contributors' rights. Both go against the spirit of free software in my opinion, and both are abused to steer projects into less desirable outcomes for the free software community.
(DIR) Post #AYe45DmFOO8Ct4VHou by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-08-12T05:48:24.780148Z
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@tyil @doctormo cocs don't have any real legal binding on the code. they're just a way for upstream developers to feel better about.. something. idk. most of them use the same one that doesn't really say anything so i'm not sure what the point is.
(DIR) Post #AYe4JYyNNt3sg811eK by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T05:50:59.914Z
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@icedquinn@blob.cat @doctormo@fosstodon.org CLAs are basically a means of saying "thanks for the free work, now fuck off". CoCs are means of saying "we only appreciate you or your code if you agree with our (political) ideology".In theory, a "good" CoC doesn't do this, but as you said, most of them use the same one, the Contributor Covenant CoC, and it quite strongly supports the "agree with my ideology or suffer" mentality. It is used almost exclusively to abuse contributors and try to bully them away.
(DIR) Post #AYe4cl9sIrKvyOY0mm by doctormo@fosstodon.org
2023-08-12T05:50:34Z
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@tyil You are very much wrong. Codes of conduct were not developed by those in power to suppress those without. They were developed by those without power to hold those in power to account for their actions.Moderation is always abusable. But the existence of moderation is not in and of itself a sign of coercion. Quite the opposite.
(DIR) Post #AYe4clnZvF5zxX7ifg by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T05:54:27.767Z
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@doctormo@fosstodon.org They were developed by those without power to hold those in power to account for their actions.If these people had no power, how come it became so prevalent so quickly? I'd expect people with "no power" to not be able to achieve such a thing, especially not in only a matter of years.But the existence of moderation is not in and of itself a sign of coercionI agree.But the existence of bad moderation almost always is, and any moderation team that adopts a terrible CoC is a bad moderation team. Given that most CoCs are in fact terrible, it's a good rule of thumb to just avoid any project that deems it necessary to adopt one. They could be spending their time making the project more interesting, or start drama due to CoC shenanigans. I know which I prefer.
(DIR) Post #AYe5WQxqZSpjYjT9IO by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-08-12T06:04:32.048952Z
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@tyil @doctormo that's really nothing different from how projects already worked. if the BDFL is a shitheel, well, :cirno_shrug:
(DIR) Post #AYe5nnn6xFBFHJjHaS by doctormo@fosstodon.org
2023-08-12T06:04:52Z
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@tyil It happened quickly because it was the right thing to do.Sometimes morality speaks and people listen. Codification was better than lazy fair leader says goes moderation that depended on deeply flawed, socially broken people.My rule of thumb is to never be involved in a large project that does not have a code of conduct. The time spent re-litigate what is acceptable every time someone tries to push undefined boundaries is wasteful and I have code to write.
(DIR) Post #AYe5noWqDDlBZ97nrk by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T06:07:39.453Z
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@doctormo@fosstodon.org It happened quickly because it was the right thing to do.If you think that's how the world works, you're incredibly naive.moderation that depended on deeply flawed, socially broken people.Yes, so instead we shift the focus to a deeply flawed, socially broken contract. I fail to see how this is an improvement.The time spent re-litigate what is acceptableSounds like you dealt with bad moderation teams. Too bad you think the solution is even worse social contracts that are mostly used to shut people up for daring to hold opinions not shared by the moderation team.I have code to write.Then write code, don't keep yourself busy with clearly divisive politics.
(DIR) Post #AYe5yVWlCOddotBbHs by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T06:09:36.287Z
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@icedquinn@blob.cat @doctormo@fosstodon.org Good moderation is key, yes, I agree with this. A CoC never helps this, though,, it will not magically turn a bad moderator into a good one.It is a pointless document used mostly to hurt contributors for not following a desired agenda. All a CoC does is give bad moderators an excuse.
(DIR) Post #AYe6nenkThNdLqWRVo by doctormo@fosstodon.org
2023-08-12T06:16:33Z
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@tyil "how the world works"Ah, we have ourselves a stand up philosopher. 😏
(DIR) Post #AYe6nfoqh5r2VY2prk by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T06:18:50.423Z
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@doctormo@fosstodon.org I don't claim to be a philosopher, but let's look at history together then. I'm sure you agree slavery was a bad thing, right? How quickly was it solved?Or rights for gay people? Was this issue resolved on a world-wide scale within a decade?What about world peace?
(DIR) Post #AYe6vHwzJyoqnTU05A by doctormo@fosstodon.org
2023-08-12T06:17:46Z
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@tyil @icedquinn Extraordinary claims require extra ordinary proof.But I think you have an axe to grind against the branding of a document and not anything real.
(DIR) Post #AYe6vIYD5aaqeutj6G by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T06:20:07.766Z
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@doctormo@fosstodon.org @icedquinn@blob.cat I have an axe to grind against people abusing CoCs to push their very un-inclusive agenda, I won't deny this at all. You seemingly came in to talk down on anyone having any issues with CoCs in general, though. The axe grinding seems to stem from you here if anything.
(DIR) Post #AYeDp6w43plsZo3Ijg by taylan@pl.tkammer.de
2023-08-12T07:37:31.361257Z
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@tyil @icedquinn CLA = Contributor License Agreement, right? Like most official GNU projects do, but with other licenses?I don't know the terms of the BSL, but it sounds much less bad than full proprietary... I wonder why not just go AGPL if they worry about corpo exploitation.
(DIR) Post #AYeE6IQMbDoP8BQ2K0 by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T07:40:38.647Z
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@taylan@pl.tkammer.de @icedquinn@blob.cat CLA is a Contributor License Agreement, yes. I disagree with GNU using them too, not sure why you're bringing it up in the first place.As for AGPL, that'd be my default suggestion too, to ease the worries HashiCorp is supposedly trying to combat. Large corporations tend to shun anything licensed as such, and I'm sure HashiCorp knows this, and is trying to avoid it exactly because of this. I don't work for them, so I can only speculate, though.
(DIR) Post #AYeGYTtfjmMsjIhAPY by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
2023-08-12T08:08:02.748252Z
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@tyil @taylan >CLA is a Contributor License Agreement, yes. I disagree with GNU using them too, not sure why you're bringing it up in the first place.GNU doesn't use CLAs.For some packages they require a copyright assignment, but that's carefully arranged so that they only have the ability to relicense to different free software licenses to better serve free software (and can't relicense proprietary like what all CLAs are designed to allow for), plus they also grant copyright back as well.
(DIR) Post #AYeHqeQpPLycZMQp6G by taylan@pl.tkammer.de
2023-08-12T08:22:38.482027Z
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@tyil @icedquinn I wasn't sure what you meant with CLA so I was just confirming. GNU is the only project I know that practices it; I didn't know it was more widespread than that.I don't mind when GNU does it... I've done the paperwork to contribute to Emacs and Guile, though I ended up not contributing much to either.The Emacs mailing list drove me insane within like two days (don't ask, it was weird, not related to politics), and Guile is sadly quite inactive.I think there's also some political issues and disagreements at the top of the Guile command chain, but I don't want to spread rumors or guesswork...<rant>I just know that one of the co-maintainers is a big fan of the typical CoC stuff, and the exact type of CoC stuff he supports ended up being the reason I left Guix.(Guix is closely associated with Guile; the maintainers are close but not the same people. Guile has another co-maintainer who's not as fond of CoCs as the Guix people, so it doesn't have one yet...)And mind you, I used to be mildly supportive of CoCs, thinking they would be good when used by sensible people. How foolish I was to think that highly intelligent and outwardly kind people would necessarily be sensible in their politics and still remain kind when confronted with opinions they dislike...CoCs don't just drive out people who are incompatible with a civilized community; depending on the exact CoC, they can also be used to drive out anyone who doesn't conform to an extremely narrow and lopsided version of contemporary western liberal politics.You could support feminism and argue against sexism, and still be thrown out of a community due to your views being incompatible with the spirit of their CoC. After all, they're written by white middle class men who haven't got a clue in the world about how sexism or most other kinds of oppression work.</rant>
(DIR) Post #AYfRzZKov9SM4FTM2a by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2023-08-12T21:51:01.717Z
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@taylan@pl.tkammer.de @icedquinn@blob.catGNU is the only project I know that practices itWoah, really? I thought it was so common, any free software dev would have seen it (and probably signed one) sometime in their lives.I used to be mildly supportive of CoCsIt is understandable, especially if you're coming from a good place. The supposed intention people keep telling you is that they're trying to be inclusive, and that this document is just making rules more clear. I'm not against such intentions. Practice is what makes me so vehemently against CoCs, I've seen it abused more often than not, and I've been on the receiving end of this myself as well. I spoke my concerns when it was introduced in a project I loved, the proponents told me "nah that'll never be abused in this way you're saying", only for it to be abused exactly in such a way.they're written by white middle class menThis remark is funnier to me than it should be, and it is ironic that this statement verbatim is grounds in most CoCs for complete removal for a project, and several attempts to get you fired or otherwise ruin your life and career.
(DIR) Post #AYfSWwG4iG1YigAHOS by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-08-12T21:57:02.924282Z
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@tyil @taylan the fsf tends to do copyright assignment. cla's are a more modern thing.