Post AXt2uALmF77VU5veoy by Colman@mastodon.ie
(DIR) More posts by Colman@mastodon.ie
(DIR) Post #AXt2Ttvag6qP1R9kyu by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T13:18:46Z
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We’ve been travelling by train instead of flying, and this article this article backs up what I’ve experienced, that it is 2-4x more expensive to travel by train than plane.The Greenpeace director of policy says this is because of fuel taxes, but that just can’t be the whole story. Anybody know what’s going on? I worry trains are not as environmentally friendly as portrayed.https://news.sky.com/story/trains-to-europe-may-be-better-for-the-climate-but-theyre-four-times-more-expensive-than-flying-12924080
(DIR) Post #AXt2uALmF77VU5veoy by Colman@mastodon.ie
2023-07-20T13:23:36Z
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@john flying is massively subsided? Train ticketing isn’t optimised for long distance travel? Might actually be priced to discourage it?
(DIR) Post #AXt3L18YbarKjFY6sK by maz@mastodon.online
2023-07-20T13:28:27Z
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@john Economy class is just billable ballast is one hypothesis https://youtu.be/BzB5xtGGsTc
(DIR) Post #AXt4y8ZwyEhX3ba0Qa by AggroBoy@mastodon.social
2023-07-20T13:46:43Z
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@john I’m no expert, but things that might contribute:The infrastructure cost of owning and maintaining a rail network is probably comparatively high.They have a captive market of commuters who simply can’t choose not to travel. Planes have these too, but many fewer. So I’d guess downwards price pressure is lower for trains.The way the train network is set up in the UK means there’s effectively no competition, where budget airlines compete furiously.
(DIR) Post #AXt5F883tcf4aKdcI4 by AggroBoy@mastodon.social
2023-07-20T13:49:44Z
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@john I have the same worry about trains. I’m sure modern, electric ones, running at or near capacity are environmentally great. But quieter routes (or times), which are often served by older trains, must be worse?
(DIR) Post #AXt6rXusZFUrWOM080 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:07:57Z
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@bhawthorne because price is often correlated with energy use of the entire system. It suggests there might be inefficiencies associated with trains that are not taken into account, in CO2 per mile calculations. A small difference wouldn’t suggest much, but the difference is large a enough that it deserves a double-take.
(DIR) Post #AXt6zUfgW5H5m22KOG by apsmith@fediscience.org
2023-07-20T14:09:23Z
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@john the main problem with planes is not their per-mile inefficiency (they’re not bad, and a packed passenger airplane is better than a single-occupancy car) but that it makes it easy for us to travel thousands of miles repeatedly. But trains are much better than planes generally assuming similar occupancy levels.
(DIR) Post #AXt7Rn95QIzPB9HZjc by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:14:31Z
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@Colman the train networks in mainland Europe are surely optimised for the sort of travel people do in Europe, but are still more expensive than flying. Even Frances specialist TGV network…
(DIR) Post #AXt7VytpfFH6n8943U by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:15:17Z
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@AggroBoy yeah, there’s an awful lot of empty trains trundling about.
(DIR) Post #AXt7bOOaIXvPJW6qzw by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:16:13Z
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@apsmith but to have an operational train network, you can’t assume anything like similar occupancy levels, right?
(DIR) Post #AXt8BSTWbiT8OLcN8K by apsmith@fediscience.org
2023-07-20T14:22:47Z
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@john city subways and suburban commuter rail in my experience are usually quite full; long-haul trains maybe not.
(DIR) Post #AXt8hNmlZwkP76qBNY by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:28:33Z
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@apsmith in my experience, long-haul trains are often full enough, but the short haul regional branch line trains are frequently nearly empty.They’re small (like 3 carriages), but they a still dozens of tons of steel to move about for a handful of passengers.
(DIR) Post #AXtA2amSYgtDS7NHeK by apsmith@fediscience.org
2023-07-20T14:43:31Z
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@john these patterns probably vary country by country, or even by region, maybe depending on the rail network operator’s decisions or government regulation. I guess airlines are allowed to vary their flights day by day depending on demand, while rail schedules are more set. They can still vary train length by demand though.
(DIR) Post #AXtAGWfwcN3Gm6yHRo by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T14:46:02Z
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@john I don't have a lot of time today, but it was easy to find the data.Here's an article about how travel by rail in Europe cuts CO2 emissions by almost 90%.https://www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htmAnd another about how in the US it cuts 50% to 70%. We have older engines and less electric rail here so that makes sense to me.https://kleinmanenergy.upenn.edu/news-insights/traveling-across-the-united-states-the-old-fashioned-way/Trains are better for the planet than aircraft. They're essential for mitigating climate change.
(DIR) Post #AXtAQSJvfHSSADPOee by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T14:47:51Z
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@john @john I don't have a lot of time today, but it was easy to find the data.Here's an article about how travel by rail in Europe cuts CO2 emissions by almost 90%.https://www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htmAnd another about how in the US it cuts 50% to 70%. We have older engines and less electric rail here so that makes sense to me.https://kleinmanenergy.upenn.edu/news-insights/traveling-across-the-united-states-the-old-fashioned-way/Trains are better for the planet than aircraft. They're essential for mitigating climate change.
(DIR) Post #AXtAmOWMTJUUkbgWqe by Colman@mastodon.ie
2023-07-20T14:51:49Z
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@john “surely” is doing a lot of work there. An awful lot of work.
(DIR) Post #AXtAqwlh5DJa7p1ktk by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:52:06Z
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@bunny_jane sure, these are to sorts of stats I’m familiar with, which are in tension with the high price of rail travel.
(DIR) Post #AXtB00odP7b7Hgj2VU by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T14:54:11Z
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@john but have I cured your doubts about trains being environmentally friendly?
(DIR) Post #AXtB0s6tFygyZefrou by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:54:29Z
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@Colman okay, so they aren’t optimised for the exact routes they were designed and built for? I’m sure they aren’t perfect, but they are what exists.
(DIR) Post #AXtBTw6VUF6PMIM0P2 by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T14:59:44Z
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@bunny_jane I’m sure trains are better for CO2 emissions on most routes, I never doubted that. And I don’t really doubt they are better overall environmentally. What causes me to doubt the more extreme claims of environmental benefit is the cost, which just seems to be handwaved away? Maybe it’s so complicated it doesn’t lend itself to good summary?
(DIR) Post #AXtDgk4JkFCthkZ1aS by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T15:24:22Z
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@john OK how about this: I went and looked up a trip I might want to take soon, and train and air are comparable. Not 4x the cost. And keep in mind this is before airline baggage fees. Two checked bags would close the gap. Amtrak allows two bags free because weight is not an issue.Amtrak would be even cheaper, but in the 1970s the train lines were owned by the same people who owned airlines, and they thought air was more profitable. So they literally tore up tracks and sold it for scrap.
(DIR) Post #AXtEpnmxNpHvnoKNEW by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T15:37:15Z
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@bunny_jane the article I linked to is about Europe,and compared a lot of trips. 2x is their figure.
(DIR) Post #AXtHZ97B8immsrXGsa by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T15:30:54Z
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@john Cost for train and air travel is determined primarily by political factors, like taxes on trains and subsidies for planes.
(DIR) Post #AXtHZ9ksl6Xqs06ylU by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T15:35:29Z
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@john Its all politics either directly or indirectly. Like in the US during the cold war air travel was subsidized due to a belief that having lots of air infrastructure was important if the Soviets ever invaded. In the 1980s President Ronald Reagan busted unions in airports, which means airlines can pay their employees less. Meanwhile trains are better unionized. After September 11th 2001, airlines were given a government bail-out.I only have US examples, but I know its similar in Europe.
(DIR) Post #AXtHZASU8zQJ3EVnjE by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T15:54:48Z
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@john okay I forgot about labor costs. A 3 hour train ride requires paying the staff for three hours of work. The same trip might take less than an hour on a plane, so you only have to pay the staff for that much work.
(DIR) Post #AXtHZBBrQHifJxk2SG by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T16:07:51Z
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@bunny_jane there’s labour costs and land costs. I’m not sure how they factor environmentally. Land is probably a fairly significant negative.
(DIR) Post #AXtJChshubmFxUC848 by bunny_jane@plush.city
2023-07-20T16:26:10Z
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@john It's like a 15 foot stripe through the land. It's less impact than a single highway.How much land is required for airports? Multiple 2.5km runways. Huge parking lots. Huge buildings. It's disruptive to ecosystems in ways that a train station plus tracks wouldn't be. There's constant noise that deafens wildlife. Birds get threatened by jet engines. There's fuel run off. There's extra effects from such a concentration of tarmac and concrete, like heat islands, that a rail doesn't have.
(DIR) Post #AXtKTcgqZAcojdHFOi by john@sauropods.win
2023-07-20T16:40:31Z
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@bunny_jane if you’re counting airports, which you should, you also need to count railway terminals, smaller stations, marshalling and storage yards. Trains going at 150mph through the countryside isn’t entirely benign either.Again, I’m not saying trains are less environmentally friendly that planes, just that I worry the difference isn’t as stark as I hope.