Post AXbf60vUTOn72rnXJQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) More posts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) Post #AXXbDem0UefftvAVxQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T05:04:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
"I just read Anand's new book The Persuaders [Anand Giridharadas: https://thepersuadersbook.com/]. He evinces or quotes a theory of messaging that says; you should start with an appeal to shared values, then identify a problem... then identify a villain."#CoryDoctorow, 2022https://www.teamhuman.fm/episodes/229-cory-doctorowHuh?#podcasts #TeamHuman #ThePersuaders #PR #messaging
(DIR) Post #AXXc41B4RLR6RdrMgK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T05:14:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I seldom disagree with @pluralistic, but he seems to be endorsing this. I agree on points 1 and 2, but I can't think of anything more horrific than point 3. Orwell pilloried the scapegoating of a villainous Other in 1984, with the Two Minutes Hate. As a tool for manufacturing unity, it's short-termist, and profoundly authoritarian tactic.(1/?)
(DIR) Post #AXXe861kYDNqYJZY8m by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T05:37:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Trying to create unity by scapegoating an Other was the main mistake the US Democrats made in 2016. They tried to make Agent Orange into a Jokeresque supervillain. Sadly for them, this *didn't* convince the undecided to vote for a Mrs Freeze, ready to trash entire countries to revive her husband's dying political legacy. Instead, as it turned out, the "basket of deplorables" were so alienated, that presenting Agent Orange as a man who wanted to watch DC burn just made him more attractive. (2/?)
(DIR) Post #AXXefZJYgNYcwQrZTs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T05:43:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
The Democrats other big mistake, of course, was not running Sanders against the Orange Menace instead. That would have allowed Clinton to keep her powder dry until 2020, by which time more people would have forgotten her disastrous legacy as Secretary of State. Or 2024, if Sanders won, as I believe he would have. Precisely because he would have *refused* to campaign on a platform of scapegoating the Other, and instead focused on building bridges to reach the "basket of deplorables".(3/3)
(DIR) Post #AXXgeAve3vP8vg8od6 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T06:05:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
> I seldom disagree with @pluralistic... and never, ever twice in one day. But here he is, in 2022, defending the honour of Canonical:"If Mark Shuttleworth... were to have a stroke tomorrow and someone else took it over and... said 'great, let's put spyware in everything', the people at the boardroom table would [say] 'you're the boss, but listen, as soon as people know, they're just going to change app stores'. And then he can say 'you know, I would like to do this, but I guess we can't'."
(DIR) Post #AXXh8ZPvZz4FZAnbOa by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T06:10:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I'm sorry @pluralistic , but on this point you've either forgotten a crucial chunk of Canonical's history, or you slept right through 2012:https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/ubuntu-spyware-what-to-doShuttleworth put Amazon spyware in Ubuntu, for the very same reason Goggle put it in Android. To make money. If anyone in the Canonical boardroom pushed back, it didn't stop him. Neither did a virtual insurrection from a huge chunk of the community supporting and promoting Ubuntu (myself included).(2/?)
(DIR) Post #AXXhoC4YlSYnKJeTvE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T06:18:22Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pluralisticThat was when I finally realized RMS was right; Open Source *does* miss the point of software freedom. The Amazon Lens debacle was the ultimate proof that focusing on source code availability was necessary, but not sufficient, to protect privacy - or any other human rights - in the digital era. As were the various other Canonical betrayals; the nonfree Ubuntu One server, proprietary blobs in their default kernel etc. I switched from Ubuntu to Trisquel and never looked back.(3/3)
(DIR) Post #AXXsKXiioTOhH4V9CC by downbeatdan@mastodon.nz
2023-07-10T08:15:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey That would be an interesting alternative history....
(DIR) Post #AXYFHPeMexVIK0wK8G by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-10T12:33:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@downbeatdan> That would be an interesting alternative history....Hmm. I have very wanting to get my teeth into a novella...
(DIR) Post #AXb7vnjrLv8ClGsdKS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-11T21:54:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Totally agree with @pluralistic here: "... we now have this world where that foment and dynamism has ended. We live in an ossified time. A time when tech, entertainment and other sectors have merged not just with each other, but with the military and the state, so that we have just an increasingly concentrated, dense ball of corporate power that is intermingled with state power in a way that is very hard to unwind."#CoryDoctorow, 2023https://www.tni.org/en/article/seizing-the-means-of-computation
(DIR) Post #AXb89tiJvxDRLaskGu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-11T21:55:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Totally agree with @pluralistic here: "... we now have this world where that foment and dynamism has ended. We live in an ossified time. A time when tech, entertainment and other sectors have merged not just with each other, but with the military and the state, so that we have just an increasingly concentrated, dense ball of corporate power that is intermingled with state power in a way that is very hard to unwind."#CoryDoctorow, 2023https://www.tni.org/en/article/seizing-the-means-of-computation
(DIR) Post #AXb89zb63j0DavY3qS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-11T21:57:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pluralistic"I think that is down to a growing sense that Big Tech is not an isolated phenomenon, but is rather just one expression of the underlying phenomenon of increasingly concentrated corporate power in every sector."Cory Doctorow, 2023https://www.tni.org/en/article/seizing-the-means-of-computation
(DIR) Post #AXb8oObOVkfSjFxAae by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-11T22:04:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pluralistic nailed it. I'm sure he's seen the 2003 film The Corporation. IMHO this remains the most accessible piece of media exploring the corporate takeover of our economic lives (and thereby much of our political lives too), following the neoliberal coups of the 1980s.Official filmmakers' edition can be watched or downloaded here:https://archive.org/details/The_Corporation_#documentary #TheCorporation
(DIR) Post #AXb97WsPyEz9tV2Vma by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-11T22:07:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
This!"And I think that our challenge is to get people to locate their criticism in the right place, to understand that it's unbridled corporate power and the officials who enable it, that it's not the special evil of tech or a highly improbable mind-control ray. Or, I'm sure it goes without saying: it's not immigrants, it's not George Soros, it's not queers. It's unchecked corporate power."@pluralistichttps://www.tni.org/en/article/seizing-the-means-of-computation
(DIR) Post #AXb9JuB3AKcxdOeioK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-11T22:10:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Also, this!"I think that technology that's responsive to its users’ needs, technology that is designed to maximise technological self-determination, is critical to any future in which we address our major crises."@pluralistichttps://www.tni.org/en/article/seizing-the-means-of-computation
(DIR) Post #AXbN5HYVMVzV9hY2To by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-12T00:44:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
That quote about fascism being the merger of state and corporate power - commonly misattributed to Mussolini - seems relevant here.https://politicalresearch.org/2005/01/12/mussolini-corporate-state@pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXbQFfSpcqDe44XR5c by nwchapman@sfba.social
2023-07-12T01:05:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @pluralistic The Spectacle writ large
(DIR) Post #AXbRU0on7z3CImDIvI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-12T01:34:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nwchapman > The Spectacle writ largeThat reminds me, I've been meaning to reread Society of the Spectacle. It's been more than 20 years, and I barely understood it the first time. Still want to read Revolution of Everyday Life too.@pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXbT3OqJtdwmu1Mmae by nwchapman@sfba.social
2023-07-12T01:49:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @pluralistic You can find those online over here, and I would also encourage you to read the item I'm linking to directly, Revolutionary self-theory: A beginners' manual - Larry Law, as well as the Spectacular Times pamphlets. https://libcom.org/article/revolutionary-self-theory-beginners-manual-larry-law
(DIR) Post #AXbUxqIZ6WcgE23Wa0 by ellenor2000@mastodon.top
2023-07-12T02:13:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @pluralistic new acronym idea: GAMAMAT (Alphabet, Apple, Meta (Facebook), Amazon, Microsoft, Alibaba, Tencent)
(DIR) Post #AXbcKcbCu4mc4qaIRE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-12T03:35:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nwchapman > I would also encourage you to read the item I'm linking to directlyHuh! Revolutionary self-theory was one of the first situationist pamphlets I read. Back in the 90s, local anarchist bookshops used to photocopy and bind them, and sell them for 50c. Debord's 'Comments on the Society of the Spectacle' was the second, if memory serves. There used to be a thriving community around Nothingness.org, and SI texts can still be found there (no HTTPs):http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SI/
(DIR) Post #AXbczL72p3xziUtMTw by nwchapman@sfba.social
2023-07-12T03:43:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey I picked all those up at the anarchist bookshop in Redfern, in Sydney
(DIR) Post #AXbf60vUTOn72rnXJQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-12T04:06:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ellenor2000 > new acronym idea: GAMAMAT (Alphabet, Apple, Meta (Facebook), Amazon, Microsoft, Alibaba, Tencent)TenCent absolutely must be included:https://yewtu.be/watch?v=51fWzJ-A5w4I'll give NZ$100 to anyone who can come up with an acronym that is the name of a monster or demon from folklore or mythology (of any culture). @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXbfna0Vv0hEIbvBdQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-12T04:13:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ellenor2000 > new acronym idea: GAMAMAT (Alphabet, Apple, Meta (Facebook), Amazon, Microsoft, Alibaba, Tencent)TenCent absolutely must be included:https://yewtu.be/watch?v=51fWzJ-A5w4I'll give NZ$100 to anyone who can come up with a similar acronym that includes those companies, and is the name of a monster or demon from folklore or mythology (of any culture). @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXbgsGgdHOjnmNQCEC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-12T04:26:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nwchapman > I picked all those up at the anarchist bookshop in Redfern, in SydneyAwesome! I got mugged in Redfern once. I was in Sydney for anti-WTO protests in 2002(?). I was meeting some people from our sister IMC there, who hosted our Aotearoa Indymedia site, so I had our annual hosting donation in cash in my pocket. Dumb move in hindsight, but moving cash between countries was really hard back then!
(DIR) Post #AXcP7vpoyBgrj0zyoy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-12T12:40:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jonathanharker > there's an unfortunately necessary sequel too [to The Corporation]Ooh, I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing!@pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXetNtYEc7dyDVDjiy by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-13T17:30:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey@pluralistic But there is, perhaps, an over-willingness to treat them as harmless cranks, as though we can start from their shared frustrations with the world and just gently nudge them in a more sensible direction.These common anxieties are a shared coordinate that is, I think, far more superficial than we would want it to be, because, while we're all worried and skeptical [about] what people in power are doing, Flat Earthers have very, very different ideas about who's in power and what they're trying to do with it.Flat Earthers are not otherwise empty vessels who believe one kooky thing; they believe that thing because it suits their purposes.Flat Earthers have an agenda.—Dan Olson, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44
(DIR) Post #AXfIE1BTsSk1qexsJc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-13T22:09:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> perhaps, an over-willingness to treat them as harmless cranksNot in my experience. What I see is a race to condemn people as a "basket of deplorables" as soon as they diverge from the approved neoliberal talking points. Also, we're not talking about Flat Earthers here. Like Young Earthers, that's a rather... special case.@pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXfU5WHu44C99rgOpc by chris@s.the-brannons.com
2023-07-13T23:29:35.488523Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @LeBonk @pluralistic Oh, the deplorables are quite real. I was raised to be one. I know right-wing talking points so well that I could probably have a successful run in conservative talk radio or journalism and receive some of that sweet, sweet wingnut welfare.But then there’s also the fact that a lot of the bigotry you see from the “basket of deplorables” is literally just based on fear and ignorance. A lot of these people are deeply hurting. The person who raised me to be a racist shitlord certainly was. People who are hurting are even more vulnerable to fear. Add to the mix that there is a class of fear-stokers in the media, pointing the finger at some other powerless group, be it gay people, or black people, or whoever, and saying “Don’t mind the man behind the curtain who is literally robbing you blind. Look at these people over here instead. They want to destroy your way of life blah blah blah.” Divide and rule, a time-tested strategy.Oklahoma – the place where I grew up – had a very healthy socialist movement and political party in the early 1910s. It was destroyed by World War I and the Red Scare of the early 20s. Part of the reason Oklahoma is full of deplorables now is that the ruling class destroyed the alternative almost a hundred years ago.And none of this should be taken as an excuse for or endorsement of the behavior of so-called “deplorables”. I don’t wanna dialogue with these people. The ideology that I was exposed to from a very young age quite literally destroyed my soul. It explains, but not excuses.We need a society that works for everyone. Once we have it, my suspicion is that the “deplorable” mindset will wither on the vine. The fire will die out for lack of fuel.
(DIR) Post #AXfU5X4p8BKJbaZT5E by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T00:22:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chris> Oh, the deplorables are quite real.This is a value judgment, that you seem to have mistaken for a statement of fact. It's also a snapshot of an ongoing process potentially subject to change, which you seem to have mistaken for an eternal truth.@pluralistic @LeBonk
(DIR) Post #AXfUUeVadYsZtU4KTA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T00:26:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chris> Oh, the deplorables are quite realThis is a value judgment, that many people seem to have mistaken for a statement of fact. It's also, as you say, a snapshot of an ongoing process, potentially subject to change. Which many people seem to have mistaken for an eternal truth. To the point of seeing maiming or killing such people as a morally acceptable (once they're all safely conceptualized as "nazis" and therefore subhuman). Which of course feeds their fear of us.@pluralistic @LeBonk
(DIR) Post #AXfWqaEPQ5IcuLcMro by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T00:53:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chris> I don’t wanna dialogue with these peopleI totally understand, and you don't have to. But some of us are willing to, and it makes me sad when we are condemned for this. I'm inspired by the work of Daryl Davis, and some of the invective directed at him by "liberal" crypto-conservatives is truly shocking to me.> We need a society that works for everyoneAgreed. But to get that, it helps to turn confused/ misled enemies into allies.@pluralistic @LeBonk
(DIR) Post #AXfX6SyWAMrF2Il5Lk by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-14T00:56:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @pluralistic The point is that people who believe in the real out-there shit (like, for example, pretty much anything involving George Soros) don't believe in it because they were convinced by actual evidence (and therefore it's foolish to assume they'll definitely be convinced by better evidence); they believe in it because it justifies all the other things they actually believe in — and, more importantly, the things they want to do to people.It doesn't matter to a committed white nationalist how many times you sit down and debunk the ridiculous white nationalist conspiracy that the world is secretly being taken over by Jews, because, when they say that, they aren't really saying that it's true. What they're saying is they want to persecute Jewish people.—Abigail Thorn, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwS_FMZ3nQFar from experience producing his idea of theJew, it was the latter which explained his experience. If the Jew did not exist, the anti‐Semite would invent him.—Jean-Paul Sartre, Anti-Semite And Jew: An Exploration of the Etiology of Hate (1944) (https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmWQf9NTdtaq52vjB8PmznDJkBP3fsNDiD1fn7848kJz5p)
(DIR) Post #AXfXzNeNfIwQRsWaC8 by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-14T01:05:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @chris @pluralistic Attempting to deradicalize members of the far-right is certainly a noble goal and a viable strategy; my intent was not to deny that. However, it cannot be the only strategy.The point is that our primary goal should be to defeat fascism, not to convince fascists. The latter can certainly be helpful (in certain situations) for achieving the former, but we need to accept that there will always be people who we will never convince (perhaps because they're high enough on the desired fascist hierarchy that they'd have some meaningful amount of power over many others and they understand the value proposition of having other people's shit)
(DIR) Post #AXhFriI9cvu7I9F6Ho by chris@s.the-brannons.com
2023-07-14T05:58:09.702182Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @pluralistic @LeBonk I keep going back to what Dr. King said to his jailers. Essentially,you should be marching with me, not fighting me. The same guys who areoppressing me are oppressing you too. We're really on the same side here,even if you don't know it yet. Now there is a guy that the latte liberalset loves to quote and refuses to hear.He was such a threat to the status quo that they defanged his memory.Enough people were listening, almost. Now every weaksauce centrist triesto claim him as one of their own.On the other hand ... we call them names like Nazi, sure. But the race-baseddehumanizing rhetoric that I soaked up like a sponge while growing upin the southern US is so, so much worse.And the people listening tothat rhetoric have demonstrated a willingness to use violenceto get what they want, even though they have no idea why they want it and noidea why it is not in fact the thing that would solve their problems.If you want to know what dehumanization of the other really looks like,go find -- not buy -- a copy of The Turner Diaries and read that puppy cover to cover.TL;DR: it's a blood-drenched fantasy wherein everyone who isn't certified100% Aryan by the American Kennel Club is referred to as "subhuman" or"humanoid" on almost every page.Now I will not claim that everybody in the southern US is a dyed inthe wool racist who sleeps with a copy of the Turner Diaries or Mein Kampfunder his pillow.Far from it. In fact, a lot of good ol' boy racists are justifiably horrifiedby the Turner Diaries.But I can assure you that the number of people who resonate with astatement like "Mexican immigrants are here to steal our jobs and rape`our` women" is very far from zero, and it's a short leisurely stroll fromthere to "Hey dudes, let's do a Turner Diaries IRL."Climate change will exacerbate these problems, as even morepeople go looking for a racial or ethnic other to blame for their trouble.Contrary to the fantasies of some hairshirt-wearing hippies, it will notcause us to willingly and gladly rush to embrace the joys of voluntarysimplicity in a bucolic setting,while channeling our inner Thoreau and E.F. Schumacher.Three generations back, my cracker hillbilly forbears were one or two stepsup from serfdom. Voluntary simplicity is a fantasy for the privileged.
(DIR) Post #AXhFrj2Eraldb4nu7M by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T20:52:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chris > Climate change will exacerbate these problems, as even morepeople go looking for a racial or ethnic other to blame for their troubleIronically enough, given the jumping off point for this discussion, @pluralistic wrote a column addressing exactly this issue we are discussing. Here's the podcast version:https://craphound.com/news/2023/05/14/the-swivel-eyed-loons-have-a-point/@LeBonk #podcasts #CoryDoctorow #SwivelEyedLoons
(DIR) Post #AXhGRuU7lqpBX66LUO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T20:58:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> they understand the value proposition of having other people's shitThis is the key point. Fascism is a symptom, of a disease we might call capitalism (a feudalism ruled by whoever has the most capital, instead of hereditary aristocrats). Fascism is the capitalists' final line of defence against economic democracy, when bread and circuses fail to keep the plebs in line.@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXhGlXd4SQ6KRGeAtc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T21:02:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonkAnyone who thinks they're fighting fascism by fighting indoctrinated working class white men, instead of fighting capitalist power, is *also* a useful idiot for the latter. Just like the former.(2/2)@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXhHQeRW1sQfRZqRH6 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T21:09:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chris> If you want to know what dehumanization of the other looks likeOh I know. While I was at high school, our freaks & geeks social group included a bunch of the 'trenchcoat mafia' types, who it turned out were being indoctrinated with white supremacist ideas by some older guys they were doing war gaming with. I spent a bunch of time trying to deprogram them before I realized this. So when I finally met these older guys, I proceeded to deprogram them.(1/2)@pluralistic @LeBonk
(DIR) Post #AXhHkZKojLt1ORD1nM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T21:13:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chrisI used exactly the method @pluralistic talks about in that column/ podcast I just linked to about the swivel-eyed loons. I spoke to them with respect and compassion, as fellow humans, and leaned heavily into the stuff they *weren't* wrong about. While calmy debunking the disinfo they'd been feed, and firmly rejecting the bigotry sprinkled in with it.(2/3)@LeBonk
(DIR) Post #AXhIFChqudfIBnajqa by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T21:19:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chrisYears later, I ran into the ringleader of the war gaming group, dancing to hiphop at an inner city club. He thanked me for showing him the blinders that had been put on his thinking. He was a smart guy, and very charismatic in his own way. If I'd just written him off as a "deplorable" and told my trenchcoat mafia friends to avoid him, he could have gone on to become a very effective organiser for the National Front, or some other local white supremacist group.(3/4)@pluralistic @LeBonk
(DIR) Post #AXhIgfL2ZEJIoD14E4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-14T21:24:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chrisTo this day, I'm very proud of what I achieved with that group, especially given I was a teenager, and only just beginning my own political education. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't intimidated by those older guys at first. It would have been *much* more comfortable to avoid them than to engage with them, especially given I knew there was no certainty I could influence them. But I'll never regret trying, then or since.(4/4)@pluralistic @LeBonk
(DIR) Post #AXl6VSQDpPM8kKAW1I by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-16T17:26:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey@chris @pluralistic "antifascist action helps corporations actually" is not a take I was expecting herePreventing fascists from recruiting and spreading fear, hate, and violence toward vulnerable people is more important than just trusting that every member of the working class will be on board with ending capitalism. How are we gonna do that if we keep telling the fascists' biggest targets that their struggles don't matter?
(DIR) Post #AXl8TLuJHKf1s1Mkam by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-16T17:48:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey@chris @pluralistic And it was certainly a good thing that you did, but you have to realize that you probably had an easier time doing that due to your proximity than a rando on the internet would have.Again, we cannot trust that everyone who's staked themselves in fascist ideas can be calmly and rationally led out, and (and this is the important bit) our goal should be to minimize the harm they do to their targets.This is a fight on many fronts, and deradicalization is one of them — but it is only one, so please keep it in perspective. It sends an awful message when we spend more time trying to get bigots back on our side than we do the people they are bigoted against.—Ian Danskin, The Alt-Right Playbook: How to Radicalize a Normie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g)
(DIR) Post #AXlMblCqV4aA0awIqm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-16T20:26:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonkI think you've either missed my point, or confused me with someone else you've argued about this with.Maybe try reading to understand, rather than reading to condemn?@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXlMuG8wDRz3AcvsVE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-16T20:30:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> you have to realize that you probably had an easier time doing that due to your proximity than a rando on the internet would haveThis is a very good point. It's worth pointing out that all this happened before anyone involved knew the net existed (although I think some of them had used a BBS). But my point that it's possible *and* more effective than the 'punch a fascist' approach. Which feeds their sense of victimhood and probably helps them with recruiting.@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXlNNT8sxr0RstpuLo by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-16T20:35:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> It sends an awful message when we spend more time trying to get bigots back on our side than we do the people they are bigoted againstOnly to people who can't see their way out of false dichotomies. No one is a more passionate anti-smoking advocate than an ex-smoker. Similarly, ex-fascists are an incredibly powerful force for turning fascists into antifascists. What better way to help protect anyone they're bigoted against (which is everyone but themselves BTW).@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXpIxx6DLA1y540Hho by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-18T18:04:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey@chris @pluralistic Elaborate your point then? Because it really sounds like you're saying organizing against fascists ("indoctrinated working class white men"), and thereby defending the communities they target, just plays into the hands of capitalist power (rather than being an extant vector of the fight against capitalist power), and so we shouldn't bother trying to protect said communities (which are already made more vulnerable by capitalism)
(DIR) Post #AXpK9j3tSNxtyQ617Q by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-18T18:17:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey@chris @pluralistic The spectacle of antifascist violence can sometimes bring attention to fascists and recruitment, it's true. The antifascist response to that is that, although it might bring some recruitment, if you can't hold a meeting or you can't pass out flyers because you keep getting shut down, then attention is all well and good but you won't be able to capitalize on it. In addition, the first time a fascist gets punched it gets a lot of attention, second time a bit less attention, third time even less.We also need to be careful not to oversimplify the reasons why people join fascist movements; if being a victim of violence was all it took for somebody to sympathize with your political cause, then a lot of other political movements would find their ranks filling up a lot faster than fascism's are.—Philosophy Tube, The Philosophy of Antifa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwS_FMZ3nQ&start=2203)
(DIR) Post #AXpM7NlFsfyVEwO8nY by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-18T18:34:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey@chris @pluralistic Unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of ex-fascists (especially not of the current online/alt-right strain of cryptofascism (yet)) so the rest of us still have to find something else to doAnd, of course, the deradicalizations of ex-fascists can be incomplete. Peter Cytanovic (the screaming guy from that one photo everyone uses of the Charlottesville Unite The Right rally) eventually befriended a Muslim woman who did calmly talk him down, but, while he's no longer a white nationalist, he's still (as of 2019) "a deep, deep Catholic," "a socially conservative person," and he's still not fond of "the whole transgender thing", so it's understandable that diverse/leftist communities might still not want him around.
(DIR) Post #AXpgVIZBmDoPGH3l0C by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-18T22:28:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hans> is there anything Canonical could change that would make you comfortable with Ubuntu again?TBH I doubt it. The only thing Ubuntu has over Debian is better funding. But IMHO it's precisely that funding source - Shuttleworth, Canonical, and their OS(A)E (1) business model - that leads to the ruinous compromises discussed in the posts you're replying to.(1/2)(1) Open Source (Almost) Everything:https://tom.preston-werner.com/2011/11/22/open-source-everything.html
(DIR) Post #AXpgvqv4fxLJKnxTdY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-18T22:33:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansPerhaps I'm being cynical, and admittedly I haven't been following Ubuntu closely for years. So let me try to give a more serious answer to your question.(2/3)
(DIR) Post #AXph69RkeCZNgu9a9A by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-18T22:35:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansI think it would require a much greater separation between Shuttleworth/ Canonical and the Ubuntu Foundation, and a shift to a much more bottom-up democracy in the way UF decisions are made. Taking software freedom more seriously as a set of guiding values. Putting serious funding into reverse engineering etc, to progressively replace non-free bits of existing Ubuntu (esp. kernel blobs). Supporting FSF campaigns, eg against DRM, with serious funding/staff time not just pretty words.(3/3)
(DIR) Post #AXpqcO6SaaeC0Ado7U by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T00:21:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> Unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of ex-fascistsRight, and creating more of them is work that pays itself back exponentially.@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXpqjHsQ8Zj8iZMdeq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T00:23:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> the deradicalizations of ex-fascists can be incompleteTwo points on this.A political "radical" - from the French for "root" - refers to someone who aims to address the causes of problems, rather than endlessly battling superficial symptoms. Calling fascist recruitment "radicalization" makes us Useful Idiots for the corporate PR flacks who aim to demonise anti-corporate radicals as being equivalent to fascists.(1/2)@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXprPgR1Dmuj2tlNRY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T00:30:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonkSecondly, your comment points to a common inability to understand two things. One, that there is a real and important difference between fascists, and every other kind of right-winger, whether nationalist, conservative, or propertarian ("classical liberal"). Because of this, moving people from one to the other *matters*.(2/3)@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXprvkK0J0XOMplqVs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T00:36:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonkSecondly, the difference between states of being and directions of change. Moving people from fascist to ultra-conservative is a significant achievement in itself. But it's only the most urgent step in the process, not the end of it. I once joined a drug law reform campaign run by a Boomer who, while never a fascist, but had run as a candidate for National (NZ equivalent of US Republicans). He still had a few right-wing ideas, but had become *very* socially liberal.@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXps3bq5j8ZUNNWqdk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T00:38:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> Elaborate your point then?I started trying to do this, but it turned into a blog length rant. I'll finish it later and post a link with a TL;DR.@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXrancCDK4r1wdaGGG by hans@social.gerwitz.com
2023-07-19T07:46:00.899223Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey makes sense. I’m still learning (well, I should say “beginning the neverending journey of learning) this crazy mission to align capitalist forces and open source. I’m not sure how wide the venn diagram of priorities is, but it’s certainly not a circle.
(DIR) Post #AXrandEjSCSlAjlmpE by hans@social.gerwitz.com
2023-07-19T07:49:20.213590Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey what's driven me here is a hope in this overlap between "I don't care if you share the non-differentiating stuff, just make profit" and "the F in FOSS should reflect true freedom". There's a lot of middle-ground compromise that makes both sides unhappy, but I also see some true common ground around increasing access to technology.Maybe I'm just too bright-eyed and naive, still.
(DIR) Post #AXrandqJCUWL3HLnOa by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T20:34:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hans> crazy mission to align capitalist forces and open sourceWhether this is possible or desirable depends on your definition of "capitalism". By Marx's original one (an analogy with feudalism where power is not hereditary but tied to concentrated wealth), it certainly isn't. But if you're using the more common definition, where it's a hand-wave at business and markets more generally, then I'm a strong believer in the platform cooperative approach:https://platform.coop/about/benefits/technologists/(1/?)
(DIR) Post #AXrbFdCdAoHbAw8cZE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T20:39:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansI advised Loomio to become a worker-owned cooperative company when they started up in the wake of Occupy. Just over 10 years later, I'm in the process of setting up a co-op with a couple of friends to host fediverse instances. This structure puts democratic decision-making in place of a top-down corporate hierarchy, and allows us to put a social mission in place of a profit motive. That mission, for Loomio and for us, includes respecting people's human rights and software freedoms.(2/?)
(DIR) Post #AXreq8BXl5A1YMj2bA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-19T21:19:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hans> middle-ground compromise that makes both sides unhappyI chose the phrase "ruinous compromises" intentionally, as a reference to this essay by RMS on approaching compromise strategically:https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/compromise.htmlI hope the articles at these two links, and the context I've provided, will help you to sustain and focus your idealism as you continue to work in this space : )(3/3)
(DIR) Post #AXtnUm0YJ0fAatOYDY by hans@social.gerwitz.com
2023-07-20T19:41:56.535882Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey thanks! I am “only” in design but have grand dreams of bringing the benefits of FOSS sharing to design and vice-versa. Can’t hope to do that without a nuanced understanding of FOSS.
(DIR) Post #AXtnUmebu4hob88Xei by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-20T22:05:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hans> I am “only” in design but have grand dreams of bringing the benefits of FOSS sharing to design and vice-versaDesperately needed, for a long time. There's a few people and projects who have been working on that for a while. One is Máirín Duffy (@mairin), one of your counterparts at Red Hat. Another is a Free Code UI design tool:http://penpot.app/Here's a video that combines the two:https://peertube.kaleidos.net/videos/watch/950c184b-b05d-44d5-8b50-621fb30e5db7
(DIR) Post #AXtw6nejQSaiLJpe1g by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-20T23:42:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @hans Nice to meet you @hans! Here is a brain dump from me on the topic in case it is helpful :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtldPqWzTZw
(DIR) Post #AXtwlS56Xp1jIrYHzs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-20T23:49:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mairin> Here is a brain dump from meNice one. I was trying to remember where I knew your work from. Were you interviewed on the podcast @cwebber was doing a few years ago?@hans
(DIR) Post #AXu5a9OYZvP1kcKvce by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-21T01:28:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @cwebber @hans Yes I was! LibreLounge :) https://librelounge.org/episodes/38-user-interfaces-with-m%C3%A1ir%C3%ADn-duffy.html
(DIR) Post #AXu9YNXbPfQcrRyiAq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-21T02:12:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mairin> Yes I was! LibreLounge :)Ah-hah! That was it. I was a regular listener. Is that where you talked about that UX hackathon (was it Broccoli Con?)@cwebber @hans
(DIR) Post #AXvZoujuXcc8QMEz5c by LeBonk@wetdry.world
2023-07-21T18:40:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @chris @pluralistic My point was that semi-reformed ex-fascists are still probably not the kind of people that queer people, people of color, and other common targets of the right are gonna want to have around, not that all rightoids are the same or something, because even if the individual being deconverted no longer wants to throw them in concentration camps, they may still harbor some lingering bigoted sentiments that can still have negative effects.I think the disconnect is that we're coming at this from different angles. As I understand it, you're approaching this from the deconversion side (in which every little bit of progress matters), whereas I'm coming at this from the angle of protecting diverse communities (which are probably not a good holding space for de-converts, partially because of the potential threat posed to those communities and partially because anyone coming out of such a toxic belief system probably needs somewhere more neutral anyway)
(DIR) Post #AXvqzdZ4R4iDYzrwau by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-21T21:54:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LeBonk> you're approaching this from the deconversion side... whereas I'm coming at this from the angle of protecting diverse communitiesPerhaps you've mistaken my motivation here? I'm not interested in this for the benefit of the deprogrammed. That's just a bonus. I care about deprogramming precisely because it reduces the danger to the rest of us. So as I've already pointed out, this is exactly the same tunnel we're digging, just from opposite directions.@chris @pluralistic
(DIR) Post #AXvvffKGg3Sf0NF236 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-21T22:46:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mairin> Here is a brain dump from me on the topic... https://yewtu.be/watch?v=mtldP…This interview is also available for your podcast app (@AntennaPod on Android is great!):https://www.opensourcecreative.org/ep050/@hans
(DIR) Post #AXw92XK7tWO2FcPYY4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-07-22T01:16:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mairin @hans If either of you have matrix we accounts, we'd love to have your expert input in this chat room, specifically for fediverse UX:#fediverse-devs-ux:matrix.org#fediverse #UX
(DIR) Post #AXwFUEfDSqh2DBroO0 by mairin@fosstodon.org
2023-07-22T02:28:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @hans I'm in 😃