Post AX4E0W59xbw7MHiOSe by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
(DIR) More posts by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
(DIR) Post #AX3NsqdXyVRP799C6q by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T14:28:40Z
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I and others have talked a lot about the #Facebook / #Meta #FediVerse issue over the past few days, analyzing their strategy, and possible responses, and why pre-emptive blocking isn't an effective measure.This leaves the question of "what *should* we do?" So....ITT: actually effective measures for building the resilience of the FediVerse and #ActivityPub, informed by the experience of the #OSS movement.(This is going to be a long one)
(DIR) Post #AX3NssBcDKHpv65uqm by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T14:40:05Z
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Front-note: I think there's something very close to the difference of views here, so I'll try to articulate what motivates my "side".Corporations and capital aren't all-powerful dark gods, vampires, demons, or the One Ring. They're systems that can be analyzed, outsmarted, and outmaneuvered.We have many more options than separatism, and slowing an inexorable advance. We can fundamentally alter the rulebook, and in fact, we have in very significant ways.So with that, let's get started...
(DIR) Post #AX3NssytG7haNv9Gee by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T14:48:25Z
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Part 1: Protecting the protocols (#ActivityPub):For the less technical, the protocols are essentially the "laws of physics" for this space. The key goal is to keep them under the control of #OSS and the #FediVerse.As currently designed, they prevent the doomsday speculations I've seen floating around (algorithmic curation, surveillance, etc).There are two aspects of this: governance, and adoption.
(DIR) Post #AX3Nsu9CvFY60Cz1NI by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T14:53:16Z
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On the governance angle, one of the most effective moves we could make is already underway (hat tip to @tchambers): the @activitypubtestsuite: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l46VNMY_ULZmf0lGPKJ86a_umHqGv--WA0fynVjQaRQ/editEstablishing robust test-suites to define common protocols is a time-tested method within the #OSS world for preventing things like #EEE. This is used, among other things, for the Java language and JVM specs, the major implementations of which are controlled by corporations. It is a part of keeping them open.
(DIR) Post #AX3Nsv77KVTH010rku by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T14:58:00Z
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An extension of this is to establish a robust governance structure for extending and revising the protocols. These have been successfully employed by the #OSS movement on important parts of the commons, and frequently resist attempts at hegemonization.This is *extremely* important where corporate entities are undertaking development of OSS and open standards. Discussion of legal templates are beginning: https://indieweb.social/@franktaber@mas.to/110602490063783403
(DIR) Post #AX3Nsw2trfgxtE30oy by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T15:04:01Z
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As to the question of what sort of governance structures work best, a common model has emerged in #OSS that most closely resembles labor unions:A tiered structure, but with accountability flowing *downward* towards the community. Developers/committers/members are appointed based on a clearly-defined process based on experience and domain knowledge, who in turn elect a core team tasked with strategy, but who make non-binding *recommendations*, not decrees.
(DIR) Post #AX3Nsx3e6Nsn1pP7ce by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T15:09:38Z
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Adoption is key in preventing an #XMPP-style de-invention scenario.Google was able to remove XMPP from the commons by absorbing most of the user base into their own platform, while most external servers fragmented, producing a hub-and-spoke situation. They then just turned off their XMPP integration.This is also why the "block anyone who doesn't block #Facebook / #Meta" proposal actually *accelerates* this process.So we need to ensure that #ActivityPub remains robust and interconnected.
(DIR) Post #AX3NsyVKivclVzMkPw by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-06-25T15:13:17.828962Z
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> This is also why the "block anyone who doesn't block #Facebook / #Meta" proposal actually *accelerates* this process.The Fediverse is deeply contaminated with people that will block and defederate you for even suggesting this is a bad idea
(DIR) Post #AX3W2GdhT0rm00DmsK by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
2023-06-25T15:13:33Z
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@emc2 "Google was able to remove XMPP from the commons by absorbing most of the user base into their own platform"sorry how is this part of an argument for federation with meta lol
(DIR) Post #AX3W2HO8gM0sK1wsG8 by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T15:15:43Z
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@smallpatatas Read my whole post.
(DIR) Post #AX3W2I04PKM2DfhANk by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
2023-06-25T15:17:42Z
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@emc2 I did
(DIR) Post #AX3W2IZsGCzi0iRlBo by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T15:25:57Z
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@smallpatatas So then you admit to being the kind of bad-faith actor who clips things out-of-context and discards arguments inconvenient to you.
(DIR) Post #AX3W2JAO4SCXpxWv6O by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
2023-06-25T15:26:46Z
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@emc2 You haven't thought through the algorithmic or surveillance aspects either, would you like responses to each post individually, or
(DIR) Post #AX3W2JqZXbwfwnGbr6 by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T15:28:24Z
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@smallpatatas I have, and I have discussed them in detail in other threads. My focus here is on effective actions.
(DIR) Post #AX3W2KZwouF2DWUqa8 by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
2023-06-25T15:30:53Z
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@emc2 your claim here is that the protocol protects against algorithmic influence and surveillance. I'll grant you that it prevents some additional surveillance in the context of federation with meta but it absolutely does not prevent algorithmic influence.So given that it's your claim here, I have to assume that it's your conclusion elsewhere, meaning, no you haven't
(DIR) Post #AX3W2LASd9Rs2la0Ui by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T15:37:28Z
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@smallpatatas You can address my arguments on the threads where I and others make them.
(DIR) Post #AX3W2Lqe6JC09bJhFQ by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
2023-06-25T15:39:10Z
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@emc2 that's a gish gallop by another name. No, I'm not digging through your entire post history. You made the claim here, I'm addressing it here.
(DIR) Post #AX3W2MZJQEvCO8DMrw by emc2@indieweb.social
2023-06-25T16:40:01Z
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@smallpatatas These comments demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of how this works.Facebook gains no surveillance abilities by federating that they don't possess today.Facebook can't force my instance to use their algorithms to serve content, and the long-term moderation infrastructure that is being discussed here will make that both open and customizable.
(DIR) Post #AX4E0W59xbw7MHiOSe by smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca
2023-06-25T17:40:13Z
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@emc2 @damon Yeah so unfortunately that's not how it will work in practice.If facebook prioritizes certain kinds of content, that stuff will inevitably be what gets shared and commented on more often, and given the size of the potential userbase, they'll effectively be able to set the tone and the topics for the wider network. Plus, you'll find you get more engagement when fb boosts your stuff, so in this way you'll be encouraged to 'dance to their algo' as I like to call it.In terms of surveillance: at present, your social graph here is separate from whatever social graph fb has on you on their platform. Once federated, they can merge these two data sets, making whatever data they may have grabbed from the Fedi far more valuable.In addition, due to the fact that you'll often need to click on a profile to view it "on the original page" means fb will quickly be able to link your fedi profile with their wider web surveillance apparatus.
(DIR) Post #AX4E0YUkzPbGqFhrdY by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-06-25T18:12:06.814673Z
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> If facebook prioritizes certain kinds of content, that stuff will inevitably be what gets shared and commented on more often, and given the size of the potential userbase, they'll effectively be able to set the tone and the topics for the wider network.The tone and topic a user experiences will always be set by who they choose to follow. By that logic the largest community on the Fediverse controls the tone and topics of the Fediverse, so should they be defederated?You like your community here? You can keep it just as it is. Nobody is taking your friends away. Your home timeline will look exactly the same: the same friends accounts posting and boosting content they enjoy.If you're worried your peers may start using those services which may cause your social network to split someday help make the experience here better than there
(DIR) Post #AX4E0ZzHRPbtTCzkqu by jeff@federated.fun
2023-06-25T18:19:49.930640Z
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@feld @damon @emc2 @smallpatatas >The tone and topic a user experiences will always be set by who they choose to follow. By that logic the largest community on the Fediverse controls the tone and topics of the Fediverse, so should they be defederated?according to fediblock no, facebook is right to block them, as this what they've always wanted and they just got their wish granted. it's just they who are getting fucked raw this time.
(DIR) Post #AXQjXBuow2HribOhEW by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-06-25T17:59:07Z
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@emc2 great observations in your thread.One thing makes me wonder.. you mention governance, without mentioning what exists. This is some general thing that happens so often.There's the #W3C SocialCG, the #SocialHub developer community, and the #Fediverse Enhancement Proposal proces, the #FEP's.https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCGhttps://socialhub.activitypub.rockshttps://codeberg.org/fediverse/fepIt's frustrating as I promote these places for years and always see even #ActivityPub devs tooting without mentioning these.