Post AWVJD7mffYFhIEg8sy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) More posts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) Post #AWCfnzpughl6LXwZ7Y by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-31T04:54:51Z
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Finally got around to checking out Revolt Chat. It's basically a free code Discord clone. If they were going to federate with other chat servers, matrix is probably the best choice, given it's a room-orientated UX and needs a concept like Spaces. If anyone thinks that Revolt could be federated with XMPP, I'd be interested to hear some details on how that would work.https://revolt.chat#chat #RevoltChat #XMPP #matrix #federation
(DIR) Post #AWEAjLb5e4Ge7sEWMS by dan@social.coop
2023-05-31T22:16:05Z
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@strypey which protocol to use isn’t really the issue when it comes to rooms, both have that baked in. The bigger issue is to implement federation at all, because that means way more work for developers of those chat siloes like Mattermost, rocket.chat, etc than they are used to. Within their siloes they can do breaking changes whenever they want and can more or less dictate which clients to use. With federation they actually have to adhere to standards they don’t fully control
(DIR) Post #AWEFHoYSt55NbChDBQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-31T23:07:12Z
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@dan> which protocol to use isn’t really the issue when it comes to rooms, both have that baked inRooms in XMPP are an add-on (the MUC XEP) and AFAIK rooms are tied to the originating server. If that one server goes down the room is dead. Not so in matrix. XMPP has no concept of Spaces (groups of rooms and user accounts) AFAIK.> The bigger issue is to implement federation at allAgreed. But given the above, the suitability of a federation protocol to their use case is a big factor in that.
(DIR) Post #AWIT9ROVI3ZRRQmHVw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T00:01:21Z
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@msavoritias> xmpp has "federated rooms"Intriguing. Did this precede matrix or is it yet another "me too" addon prompted by it? How many XMPP servers and clients implement these federated room XEPs?> No matrix client implements the whole specYou mean other than Element?> matrix could be built tomorrow on top of xmpp and nobody would know the differenceWhat about Spaces? What about user verification and session management? @dan
(DIR) Post #AWIWLXaYNwxVzSsKSu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T00:37:11Z
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@msavoritias> matrix could be built tomorrow on top of xmpp and nobody would know the difference. Besides being lighter for servers and fasterWe can't compare apples with apples on this, until;a) we've got an XMPP server that implements the XEPs needed to support every feature in Element... and...b) a 2nd gen matrix server like Dendrite or Construct is feature-complete enough to fully replace SynapseUntil then, the jury is out on whether either protocol is more server efficient.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJDHjd1yWKMCbSvqK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T08:38:15Z
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@msavoritias> element could easily built something and standardize itThey did, it's called matrix ; )Without Spaces, it's simply not true that...> matrix could be built tomorrow on top of xmpp and nobody would know the difference@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJDOxAU29gaDnYSXo by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T08:39:36Z
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@msavoritias> Element doesnt implement it eitherImplement what?@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJDttDImpaAvxcnDs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T08:45:10Z
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@msavoritias> user verefication and state management and stuff basic functionality nowdaysI don't think we're talking about the same things.* user verification: the process by which you verify that the person you're getting matrix messages from is who you think they are* session management: the processes by which you confirm that each session with access to your chats, is you logging in on a different client@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJHc4a6BOOcnJ30ZE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T09:26:44Z
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@msavoritias > True dendrite when it releases, says it will be more efficient. I mean it has been said to release for years nowThis would be fair comment if all they ever produced was blog posts. If you look at the repo, you can see that the code is in constant development and new features are being implemented all the time. You can use it right now, but like any XMPP server, it doesn't provide all the functionality that Synapse+Element does.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJHpB8Z7SRUtLQ01Y by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T09:29:07Z
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@msavoritias> Matrix at its core is a DAG that copies everything there is, from the beginning of time, to all servers participating in a roomThis is a critical feature for a network that intends to replace IRC, for large-scale public conversations, with permanent records. What you're admitting in this copypasta - seemingly without realizing you're doing so - is that XMPP's supposed efficiency over matrix is mainly (if not entirely) because it's does a whole lot less stuff.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJHsZEA0bhETVeQts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T09:29:47Z
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@msavoritias> Matrix at its core is a DAG that copies everything there is, from the beginning of time, to all servers participating in a roomThis is a critical feature for a network that intends to replace and decentralize IRC; large-scale public chat rooms, with permanent records. What you're admitting in this copypasta - seemingly without realizing you're doing so - is that XMPP's supposed efficiency over matrix is mainly (if not entirely) because it's does a whole lot less stuff.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJHvSNDwoIy5SGhNY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T09:30:01Z
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@msavoritias> Matrix at its core is a DAG that copies everything there is, from the beginning of time, to all servers participating in a roomThis is a critical feature for a network that intends to replace and decentralize IRC; large-scale public chat rooms, with permanent records. What you're admitting in this copypasta - seemingly without realizing you're doing so - is that XMPP's supposed efficiency over matrix is mainly (if not entirely) because it's doing a whole lot less stuff.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJIAmujrPaS8VFsVk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T09:32:55Z
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@msavoritias > i bet prosody has all the features. Hard to test though since i dont know of an xmpp client with millions of VC moneyThis is a lazy excuse. Jabber (the originator of XMPP) also took VC money, and XMPP clients have years more than matrix clients to do this stuff. The fact that they're playing catch-up is on them, not on the matrix devs for using the resources they had available to fund their work.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWJIKKFlHAZ68qdVpY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T09:34:48Z
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@msavoritias BTW this...> copies everything there is, from the beginning of time, to all servers participating in a room... is what I meant by federated group chats. Which you said XMPP can do with that XEP you linked. So can it, or can't it? And if it does, is it still a whole lot more server efficient than matrix? @dan
(DIR) Post #AWJMFXuvRiAct8rnyy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T10:18:45Z
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@msavoritias Look, I've been using XMPP apps since the early 2000s, when it was still called Jabber. I've been using matrix software for about 5 years. You obviously haven't even used the matrix apps you're so keen to criticize. I can't be bothered debating fanboys. We're done here.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWKVwzCOyvwqhPn1xA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-03T23:42:09Z
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Me:> I can't be bothered debating fanboys. We're done hereThis was unkind and uncalled for, my apologies @msavoritias. I'm genuinely interested in comparing the pros and cons of the two protocols, from both the UX and server host POV. But it's fair to say that I'm bored with the standard 'why matrix sucks' talking points popular among many XMPP partisans. It's undeniable that XMPP has had many cons for the average person using it, and that - not VC money - is why matrix is popular.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWKtUm9GJA710zP052 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-04T04:05:52Z
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@msavoritias > software projects without money are usually done on the spare time of one or two peopleVC money isn't magic pixie dust that you sprinkle on a software project and *poof*, a shiny, user-friendly app appears. It just pays people to work fulltime on the project. Volunteers can achieve exactly the same results, they just take longer (unless they're unemployed and on welfare or whatever), and as I said, XMPP apps have had years longer than matrix apps (plus the Jabber VC).@dan
(DIR) Post #AWNUBRXsloQMEaU080 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T10:06:29Z
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@msavoritias > The problem was the tech. Was it though? I mean for tech people maybe. But non tech people didnt care. They use whatsapp which is xmpp for the last 15 yearsYou make my point for me. WhatSap etc provide apps with good UX on top of their unfederated XMPP, so people use them. The pro-federation XMPP community provided terrible UX for years, so people didn't. There's no point moaning about matrix stealing their lunch. Work on decent UX (eg Conversations, Snikket) to compete.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWNUSsjcvx87U3I90y by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T10:09:36Z
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@msavoritias > My main problems with matrix are cultural too btw. Not technicalCare to expand on this?If you mean taking VC money, I'm not a fan of this, but I don't think it's a ruinous compromise for a company building software on an open protocol. The fact that they're actively working on features that would prevent lock-in (eg account portability, P2P matrix) seems to back that up.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWNUd4o4uEDJosEchE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T10:11:30Z
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@msavoritias > i dont think matrix and xmpp target the same space.Architecturally that is, as a protocolAgain, you're making my point for me. I don't see XMPP and matrix as being in competition (although chat apps using either one are in competition with apps using either). They're good for different things. Just like XMPP and ActivityPub are good for different things.@dan @joinjabber
(DIR) Post #AWNVevofP43MT9xUlE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-05T10:23:01Z
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Me:> I'm genuinely interested in comparing the pros and cons of the two protocols, from both the UX and server host POV@msavoritias> What tech areas do you have in mind for comparison?It's not just about the "tech". User eXperience is not about tech. UI implementation is an aspect of UX, but by far the least interesting one. You talked about projects using Discord instead of an XMPP or Matrix network. Understanding *why* they choose is also part of studying UX.@dan @joinjabber
(DIR) Post #AWSdzeIlUIzjebE5U8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-07T21:49:58Z
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@msavoritias> Xmpp can be discord just fineNo, it can't, for reasons we've already discussed. Notably the lack of an equivalent of Spaces (in matrix)/ "servers" (in Discord). Even matrix can't until their group voice/video chat is stabilized.@dan @joinjabber
(DIR) Post #AWSeNGv04tSk58NIKu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-07T21:54:14Z
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@msavoritias>.obviously people use matrix and discord more because of advertisments and stuff and money involvedNot only is this not obvious, it's not even true. You keep telling yourselves this lazy excuse as long as you like. Or you can do the UX work to discover the actual reasons and address them. ModernXMPP and @snikket_im are examples of XMPP people doing this. @dan
(DIR) Post #AWSeuqWshLG25F6QnQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-07T22:00:00Z
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@msavoritias> matrix has paid to get gnome and mozilla and stuff on the platformCitation please?> After they pulled people in the bridges to irc and xmpp were abandonded never to be developed againYou're getting confused with Slack, who did exactly that. Or, once again, you're just showing me that you don't use matrix and your comments are uninformed. There are bridges in active use between matrix and a number of other platforms. I still see IRC users in matrix rooms.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWSi7c2s9zxUmzqU1Q by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-07T22:36:14Z
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@msavoritias> We are comparing matrix who got 30 million in funding only at one point vs xmpp who has basically nothing and people are working day jobs to eatWe're going in circles here. I've already explained that VC money isn't magic pixie dust. There are also XMPP based apps who've taken VC, including the original Jabber (now owned and funded by Sisco) and Jitsi.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWSiYYxfjZg52lGQPQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-07T22:41:07Z
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@msavoritias> The main cultural reason is lack of privacyAgain, this is pure bias talking.> The uploading the keys to the serverThis is an optional feature of Element, not a requirement of using matrix.> copying data everywhereThis is a feature, not a bug, especially for people wanting a replacement for public IRC rooms. For private chats, it's E2EE and only copied to the homeservers used by the people in the conversation. Just like in XMPP.@dan
(DIR) Post #AWTjKIjzXVqFnIaXFw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-08T10:24:27Z
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@msavoritiasAre you're enjoying arguing in circles? If so, just scroll up to see the answers I've already given to all the points you've brought up in your last few posts. You don't need me to keep reposting them.
(DIR) Post #AWTjkCNVom7LaeQGBc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-08T10:29:07Z
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@msavoritias> snikket doesnt do anythinp different with ui. Unless you mean same app in all systems. Which i disagree that should be a goal to begin withThis comment tells me you don't know anything about Snikket and you don't understand the first thing about UX. I suggest you educate yourself.https://snikket.org/faq/https://www.nngroup.com/articles/ux-basics-study-guide/
(DIR) Post #AWTk8wzq90Fh7k9Wts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-08T10:33:35Z
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@msavoritias> the best ui/ux in the world cant help you if yoy dont have the network effect, money, outreachThen why is Mastodon so much more popular than Diaspora, GNU social or Friendica, despite the fact they've all been around much longer?You can keep telling yourself this lazy excuse as long as you like. Or you can do the UX work to discover the actual reasons and address them. The question is, do you actually want to increase usage of XMPP apps?@snikket_im @dan
(DIR) Post #AWTlpd22LcFnbx5vMW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-08T10:52:31Z
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@msavoritias> Jitsi is not xmpp federatedNow you're just embarrassing yourself:https://community.jitsi.org/t/jitsi-meet-what-is-xmpp-used-for/27364/2Honestly, you're trying to teach Grandma to suck eggs. Give it up.
(DIR) Post #AWVIGAchTBXV0su4P2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-09T04:30:35Z
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@msavoritias> here is libera chat themselves saying the bridge for irc in unmaintainedI already read this and that's not what it says. It says that there are some issues, but...> EMS are working very hard to find a solution to the long-term sustainability of the bridge, and the work they’re doing is appreciated... we will continue to work closely with EMS to find a solution that is minimally disruptive to Libera.Chat usersAgain, you're embarrassing yourself.
(DIR) Post #AWVJD7mffYFhIEg8sy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-06-09T04:41:08Z
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@msavoritias> They paid mozilla to move to matrix> Paid fossdem to use matrixThe links you've posted as evidence for this say nothing of the sort. So now you're blatantly lying, and hoping if the articles you link are long enough nobody will bother to read the whole thing and notice your lies.Now that you've moved from desperate straw-clutching to blatant lies, I suspect someone might be paying you to spread FUD against matrix.If you post any more of this bullshit, you will be muted.
(DIR) Post #B3EWYJ5YAlGnGBEo76 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T03:59:58Z
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As you may have heard, Discord replacement Revolt has been renamed Stoat, much to the surprise and chagrin of the people using it, who apparently received no warning;Stoat is designed as a centralised service, like Signal or Wire. According to this blog post;https://blog.fermi.chat/discordAlts/revolt/... although it's technically possible to self-host it, a bunch of the code it depends on is under proprietary licenses, and the clients are hardcoded to point to stoat.chat, not your instance.(1/2)#Discord
(DIR) Post #B3EXEjd9scqxk1BmdM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T04:07:38Z
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As you may have heard, Discord alternative Revolt has been renamed Stoat;https://stoat.chat/updates/long-live-stoatStoat is designed as a centralised service. So in theory the operators could sell it to Discord, or Xitter, or anyone, at any time.To be clear, they show no signs of doing so, and claim they're getting plenty of donations to cover costs. But this was true with Gitea ... until it wasn't. Devs with control over the project accepted VC money, leading to the Forgejo fork.(1/2)#Discord
(DIR) Post #B3EXtuZC7nd9X1yAOu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T04:15:03Z
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The claims in this post are from a blog post written by one of the devs of Fermi, a client for Stoat competitor Spacebar. I haven't fact-checked this yet, so take with a grain of salt;https://blog.fermi.chat/discordAlts/revolt/Although it's technically possible to self-host Stoat, the client apps are hardcoded to point to stoat.chat, not your instance. Also a bunch of the code it depends on is under proprietary (Source Available?) licenses, and can be hard to find, as it's not all in one repo.(2/?)
(DIR) Post #B3EYro1Fb5GwbGeV7o by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T04:25:54Z
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There's a massive opportunity here, for someone to build a UX that would be comfortable for someone used to Discord. 100% Free Code, and connected to a federated server that can provide all the necessary functionality. Whether that's using;* XMPP for interop with the Jabber network, * Meg/Olm for interop with Matrix rooms* ActivityPub for interop with the forumverse (Lemmy, PieFed, Discourse, nodeBB, etc).* Something else(?)(3/?)#Discord
(DIR) Post #B3EZJZrtnqySovWLce by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T04:30:30Z
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It could be fun to have a friendly competition where one team designed a Discord-a-like UX and interface, maybe using PenPot. Then a team from each protocol camp put together the apps and server using their preferred protocol. Reusing existing components would speed things up, like an AP team building the apps as clients for a fork of the Lemmy server.Throw everything at the wall and see what sticks!(4/4)
(DIR) Post #B3EZZlSQTz9pOfKBJA by evan@cosocial.ca
2026-02-12T04:33:48Z
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@strypey We're moving forward with end-to-end encrypted messaging over ActivityPub. https://github.com/swicg/activitypub-e2ee/ MLS, the encryption technology, was meant to scale to hundreds of thousands of people, but my guess is that AP E2EE chats will more likely scale to the more personal handful, max a couple of dozen. I don't think it's a Discord replacement, but it's in the mix.
(DIR) Post #B3EboxwcXR6aNPp9W4 by Adam@social.lein.us
2026-02-12T04:57:58Z
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@evan @strypey Because we don't already have enough incompatible interpersonal electronic messaging systems, huh? :-O https://bookofadamz.com/the-smartest-messaging-method-is-not-a-segregated-mess-of-whatsapp-signal-telegram-sms-slack-teams-facebook-instagram-wechat-etc/
(DIR) Post #B3EcAQR5npk6p4JGfA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T05:02:53Z
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@evan> We're moving forward with end-to-end encrypted messaging over ActivityPubI'm aware and watching with interest.> I don't think it's a Discord replacement, but it's in the mixAs @reiver pointed out in a post I replied to earlier, E2EE is not needed by the majority of communities leaving Discord, who use it more like a web forum than a chat room system. Even if their Discord "server" is not public, it's not necessarily sensitive enough to need to overhead of E2EE.
(DIR) Post #B3Ecumkz99KrN1ijgG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T05:11:15Z
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"Over 20 years into the 21st century, and that hasn’t really happened. In fact, personal communications seem to be more fragmented and segregated than ever!"@Adam, 2022https://bookofadamz.com/the-smartest-messaging-method-is-not-a-segregated-mess-of-whatsapp-signal-telegram-sms-slack-teams-facebook-instagram-wechat-etc/Putting on my tinfoil hat for a sec, I think this was intentional. Enabling people to communicate freely, with no central control or surveillance, goes against the interests of the corps who've dominated tech development over that time. Govts aren't keen on it either (see ChatControl). So ...@evan
(DIR) Post #B3EjRdZAw9So9EFEfI by worik@mastodon.social
2026-02-12T06:24:20Z
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@strypey @evan @reiver Mēh! We got the entire web, aMost, on HTTPS.How painful is that? (it was hugely painful in the day, but no more)My point is encrypted by default can work. The protocols already exist, and the libraries. I think it is a sensible default But I (probably) am not the one to do it.
(DIR) Post #B3FA4lIOjMVQDpiK24 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T11:22:48Z
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@kitkat> MLS may be a "open" standardI'm not sure what the scare quotes about "open" are meant to imply. MLS was published as a standard by an IETF working group.> but it doesn't work in decentralized systems as isIf it did, there would be no need for the SocialCG E2EE taskforce, to work through how to use it with AP.@Adam @evan
(DIR) Post #B3FCRzIL349kCxtADw by evan@cosocial.ca
2026-02-12T11:49:24Z
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@strypey @kitkat @Adam No, that's fair. MLS is really sensitive to race conditions -- if you receive two important messages out of order, your conversations can become illegible.The way we're handling this is that the initiator of a conversation keeps an ordered feed of all the messages. They become the arbiter of ordering, for good or ill. It's not perfect, but it seems to work OK, and it maintains all the benefits of MLS.
(DIR) Post #B3FMhAArscgJpsGlX6 by evan@cosocial.ca
2026-02-12T05:17:40Z
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@Adam @strypey We looked at several models of integration. Letting people send private messages from one ActivityPub account to another made the most sense.https://swicg.github.io/activitypub-e2ee/integration-models.html
(DIR) Post #B3FMhAyUu6NeJnUOtE by Adam@social.lein.us
2026-02-12T13:44:16Z
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@evan @strypey Every ActivityPub server already uses email to send private messages for notifications, password resets, etc., right? Every AP server already requires an email address for every registered user, right? Why not use the open standard private messaging system that we already are using?
(DIR) Post #B3FMhFRMIjqMAT1VQm by evan@cosocial.ca
2026-02-12T05:18:05Z
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@Adam @strypey That said, MLS is an open standard, so it's entirely possible that we can bridge to other carrier protocols and maintain E2EE.
(DIR) Post #B3FMs1X8LZNQDorYAq by Adam@social.lein.us
2026-02-12T13:46:16Z
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@evan @strypey What's missing from the existing standard protocol for "type message press send" that can't be added and justifies a new protocol that does the exact same thing? If you want to make the ActivityPub identity an email address, GREAT, install Dovecot on the server. I would love that actually.
(DIR) Post #B3Fa8ag0kgBvFoFFwm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T16:14:51Z
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@Adam > Every AP server already requires an email address for every registered user, right? Why not use the open standard private messaging system that we already are using?I suggested this a while back;https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediverse-ideas/issues/72But checking that page, I see you beat me my a year ; )> What's missing from the existing standard protocol for "type message press send" E2EE. In theory, you could build AutoCrypt into AP servers for this. But nobody has (yet).@evan
(DIR) Post #B3FeIoZsK49350VQ80 by evan@cosocial.ca
2026-02-12T11:45:32Z
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@worik @strypey @reiver You're right; ActivityPub is encrypted from one end to the other.The problem is data at rest. AP activities are stored on the sender's server and cached on the receiver's server in the clear. If your server admin, or mine, decides to go spelunking in their database, they can violate our privacy and read our messages.This is no better or worse than unencrypted email. However, a lot of people on the Fediverse have accounts on servers they don't trust.
(DIR) Post #B3FeIpyj79cNQN8mVE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2026-02-12T17:01:28Z
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@evan> If your server admin, or mine, decides to go spelunking in their databaseOr there's a security flaw that allows a Bad Actor to go spelunking in that database, or suck it all out and feed it to a Trained MOLE, or run it through XKeyScore, or whatever.However much education we do, many people will assume not-public = reliably private. The more we can make that true, the better.But worth noting that @worik supports your goal;> My point is encrypted by default can work@reiver
(DIR) Post #B3FeM8IzQr2X8IBqPQ by Adam@social.lein.us
2026-02-12T17:02:11Z
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@strypey @evan Yeah, what we should be working on is upgrading SMTP's encryption like we did with HTTP to HTTPS. Chatmail has implemented tons of that already: https://github.com/chatmail (Autocrypt, SecureJoin, TLS, Anonymous PGP, etc.). That seems much smarter than making the messaging mess even messier.
(DIR) Post #B3FeYPHu7LLPHIXDs0 by Adam@social.lein.us
2026-02-12T17:04:24Z
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@strypey Yay you found that article! I had also posted something similar on Mastodon's github, but nobody saw it I guess: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/discussions/24532