Post AW1aF9x0vWWwBTMabw by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
(DIR) More posts by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
(DIR) Post #AW1SwRsFMjCcafGSMi by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T19:08:42Z
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So, #Twitter has Elon. #Bluesky has Jack. Makes #Google look pretty good, eh?
(DIR) Post #AW1TAnGQdPm2z6Poyu by jeffjarvis@mastodon.social
2023-05-25T19:10:50Z
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@lauren Hell, even Zuck's not looking so bad, eh?
(DIR) Post #AW1TCanZx3FGu3mMYy by wndlb@mas.to
2023-05-25T19:11:04Z
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@lauren The days of 'don't be evil' have...faded. Not a conspicuous hellhole, but still
(DIR) Post #AW1UdNdJ6p0HqMJOL2 by tequila0341@ohai.social
2023-05-25T19:27:35Z
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@lauren to be fair, YouTube's role in radicalizing people is quite underestimated.
(DIR) Post #AW1UjCpsAMYS5ry1Xk by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T19:28:43Z
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@tequila0341 That is widely assumed, but as far as I can tell totally unproven.
(DIR) Post #AW1VNdKL5hwjq3Ujx2 by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T19:35:58Z
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@laurenThere’s no question in my mind that Elon Musk is a poor excuse for a human being. The problem I have with your comparison, is that the financial model on which #twitter, #facebook, #linkedin, and probably all corporate, monolithic social media companies are based was pioneered, and zealously, aggressively defended by #google. Sergey, Larry, and Eric may cry, “De Debbil made me do it!” But they had a choice whether to sell their soul. Sell, they did.
(DIR) Post #AW1Vhy65ZsoO31WfJI by didek@101010.pl
2023-05-25T19:40:00Z
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@lauren All of them just look bad.
(DIR) Post #AW1Vlj2FWHBWUaWOAq by didek@101010.pl
2023-05-25T19:40:40Z
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@lauren All of them look just bad.
(DIR) Post #AW1WG8NhqdNln03dp2 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T19:45:46Z
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@Hippasus500 That financial model is what keeps so many crucial services free to use for people who can't afford to spend money to access them. Absent a viable micropayments system, it remains the primary viable approach, not only for large sites, but for most smaller ones. Most of the complaints about tracking abuse, etc. are false hype. Complaining about ads on Google while other sites are pushing fascists is bizarre.
(DIR) Post #AW1X6bEdoc0UKtppp2 by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T19:55:16Z
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@lauren This is not an easy topic for me, Lauren. I can’t disagree with you regarding the services that Google offers without requiring a direct payment from its users. After all, I still rely on my gmail address.It’s not the ads I object to. It is the hoovering of personal data that began with Google’s drive to personalize ads. The GDPR is an attempt to reclaim for European citizens privacy that #surveillancecapitalism compromises.
(DIR) Post #AW1XLQuEV8KWe1MWjw by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T19:58:02Z
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@Hippasus500 What personal data in particular are you referring to? And how would you compare that data with the kinds of data (e.g. PII and more) held by financial institutions, credit agencies, and data brokers -- which are typically only lightly regulated?
(DIR) Post #AW1XXlmCjNSQqeUPw0 by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T19:58:35Z
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@lauren Google’s advertising business fundamentally requires uncompromising access to personal information that I, and I’m willing to guess that many more if they truly understood the scope, would not willingly sacrifice to obtain the services Google offers.
(DIR) Post #AW1XXmZ7nUabINNUBc by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:00:13Z
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@Hippasus500 Again, what is that "personal information" to which you refer, and how does it compare to the data held by those other entities I mentioned?
(DIR) Post #AW1XsxmJIuIY9Ue3Wq by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:04:02Z
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@lauren As an example, there was a time (I don’t know if Google still does this), they scanned plaintext email without seeking their users permission in order to build their targeting databases. That’s pretty invasive, imho.That LLMs are built by scouring the Internet for relevance is equally dubious. That’s a slightly different debate, so I don’t want to distract from the main thought, but it is related.
(DIR) Post #AW1Y5B25qjiejeqqjA by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:06:18Z
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@Hippasus500 Do you object to email being scanned for malware, phishing attempts, etc.? Because virtually every major service is "reading" your email for those purposes.
(DIR) Post #AW1YMsXZLHiOax0yae by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:06:22Z
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@lauren I’m familiar with the notion that anonymizing the data protects individual identity. But it’s the taking of the data without permission in the first place that I find objectionable.
(DIR) Post #AW1YMuGytvdPy5Gl0q by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:09:22Z
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@Hippasus500 I think the problem is that so many people lose a sense of relative perspective. Again, I ask for your opinion on the data held by those other entities regarding individuals "without their permission."
(DIR) Post #AW1YOcr8cxXYWv085Q by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:09:53Z
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@Hippasus500 Which, I will add, is almost never anonymized in any way.
(DIR) Post #AW1YYMuCmmsbxL56iu by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:11:25Z
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@lauren Regarding financial institutions: I agree the regulations there are too little, and I’m not comfortable with the trade of information for services offered, there either. And I’m certain that organizations whose business is not primarily social media, engage in behavior that is dubious. But at least what the individual obtains in return for the information offered a bank (say) is assurance their money is “safe”.
(DIR) Post #AW1YhI4y6F4XarN0m8 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:13:11Z
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@Hippasus500 Are you familiar with the activities of data brokers? The kind of personal data they hold? What they do with it? All without any permission from you of any kind.
(DIR) Post #AW1YqLHnXtfg96gg9w by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:12:54Z
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@lauren The world is not a perfect place. But we all would be better off if the GDPR (such as it is), and CA’s data protection laws, were more widely practiced.
(DIR) Post #AW1YqPQS9eyGz6leCm by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:14:45Z
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@Hippasus500 "The world is not a perfect place" in this context is what many years ago might have been characterized as a "cop out".
(DIR) Post #AW1ZXtFL9pzvvMIqBM by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:22:38Z
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@lauren That’s fair. <rueful grin>As I said, this is not an easy topic for me.
(DIR) Post #AW1Zd1eVKf4pRUWQYS by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:23:37Z
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@Hippasus500 Understood.
(DIR) Post #AW1ZzlkGdlU4lg3wIK by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:27:41Z
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@lauren They are contemptible.But their business would not be possible if #surveillancecapitalism had not become the model for how to do business on the Internet. Developing, promoting, and defending its mechanisms is Google’s original sin.
(DIR) Post #AW1aF9x0vWWwBTMabw by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:30:30Z
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@Hippasus500 Those firms I mentioned and their practices predate not only the Internet firms, but the Internet itself.
(DIR) Post #AW1al54YbFS2Jx73ce by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:36:13Z
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@lauren I confess my ignorance. I don’t know the history of the data brokering business.But I’m sure you’d agree the scale of what is possible on the Internet has surely benefited their business model.I used to argue with a friend about our right to privacy.He claimed it’s a myth. The only viable path is to assume we have none, that everyone knows everything about us, all the time. And we must behave accordingly.I find that terrifying.
(DIR) Post #AW1bKTA51rVPAQZRpo by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:42:39Z
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@Hippasus500 I've worked inside Google twice, and I have a fairly good understanding of internal processes there. The care they take with user data is extraordinary, and the kind of "personal" data Google has is a pimple compared to the mountain of what those other firms I mentioned buy and sell en masse every day, usually without the knowledge of the individuals involved.
(DIR) Post #AW1bzqwJWnAMmnrgcy by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:50:02Z
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@lauren Firstly, all email should be end-to-end encrypted. But that horse was out of the barn, well…a long time ago.
(DIR) Post #AW1c1meORg8K3yP4M4 by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:50:35Z
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@lauren Tools to scan for malicious content should be available from reputable sources and should be operable without requiring sophisticated knowledge of how email works.
(DIR) Post #AW1c3hdS3x5V5VsUuO by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:50:54Z
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@lauren Individuals should be taught from the get-go that using these tools are to their advantage for their protection against the malefactors of the world. Email should not be stored on server farms otherwise beyond the reach of the individuals whose data is kept there.After all, for all the things wrong with the USPS, at least I don’t have to go to post office to read the letter from my sister.A lot of “shoulds”. A lot of water over the dam…
(DIR) Post #AW1cHMt00LnSn0fNEe by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:53:17Z
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@Hippasus500 Completely impractical. As you obviously know.
(DIR) Post #AW1cUqhuRRf92huK12 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:55:42Z
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@Hippasus500 Most people *barely* know how to use basic email. Even with all the efforts of centralized scanning and tools, malware and phishing still live on quite happily. It is completely impractical to expect ordinary nontechnical users to handle these tasks, any more than it is to assume they will handle their own backups.
(DIR) Post #AW1capZvYEifHO1ga8 by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T20:56:48Z
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@lauren To directly answer your question. I object to anyone reading my email for any purpose.But that demands a level of personal engagement that is…impractical considering the nature of email.Few are both capable and willing to do that. And of them? Well, I know I fall short.
(DIR) Post #AW1cjKJVA9iMv3OVe4 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T20:58:19Z
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@Hippasus500 There it is. Even given capable machines -- and more and more people don't even have that -- anything beyond basic usage just isn't going to fly for most users. The techies like us will take care of ourselves one way or another -- but we are not typical, and it's everyone else I worry about, not us.
(DIR) Post #AW1cu9L8IqiS4QJmqW by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T21:00:13Z
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@lauren I agree about the sophistication of the vast majority of email users.As for the practicality…I remember a discussion about how easy it would be to develop some system. It was just a “small matter of software.”
(DIR) Post #AW1d3q9CVzH7RSMFBg by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T21:02:04Z
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@Hippasus500 "Small matter of software." How often I've heard that heart-rending phrase over the years ... and I knew it was going to be a bad day each time.
(DIR) Post #AW1d5bG2qSW1qFOkUK by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T21:02:19Z
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@lauren We seem to be having multiple conversations simultaneously (chuckling).
(DIR) Post #AW1dEkD8vW60DROwBU by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-25T21:04:04Z
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@Hippasus500 Working As Intended.
(DIR) Post #AW1ddotkdXXPzbHuLY by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T21:08:34Z
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@lauren Once upon a time, I promised my boss that the two young hotshots working for me would have a MS-DOS version of Eudora in 6 months. Eighteen months later we were almost ready to distribute it to the rest of the company and post it on Internet.
(DIR) Post #AW1dvM9yDxO84gEi2a by Hippasus500@federate.social
2023-05-25T21:11:42Z
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@lauren Lauren, as much as I’m enjoying our multiple conversations, I’m going to have to step away to do…believe it or not…laundry. (Retirement is not all its cracked up to be).I like to think we’re on the same side of things. Mostly, I think we are.jwn2
(DIR) Post #AW7E2APCtPJ7mpi2zY by tequila0341@ohai.social
2023-05-28T13:49:16Z
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@lauren Plenty of cases: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/08/technology/youtube-radical.html
(DIR) Post #AW7HTgTA5WG6ubN83E by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-05-28T14:28:25Z
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@tequila0341 First, that's a four year old article, and YT has made enormous strides in control over that sort of content since then. And there's zero proof that any of these people wouldn't have ended up in the same place without YT -- there are plenty of other sites that directly radicalize. People love to blame their own problems on Big Tech and the Net. I'm pretty sick of it. Years ago it was comic books! Yes, comic books! Calls for bans, congressional hearings! After that it was violence on TV! Then lyrics in songs (Tipper Gore!). It's always the same story. Try to blame someone else for your problems, ideally someone like Big Tech with deep pockets.