Post AVv2C6DjmDm4M8nMpM by davevolek@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by davevolek@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AVtc4LELIM9acol5ZA by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-21T20:31:16Z
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On this day in 1871, the Paris Commune, a hotbed of radical working class politics and watershed moment in revolutionary anti-capitalist history, was crushed by the French National Army. 20,000 people were killed and 44,000 arrested.
(DIR) Post #AVv2C3TZyrfDqPBTbU by scandrof@aus.social
2023-05-22T03:15:09Z
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@yogthos I think I would vote for every single one of these policies:"The Commune governed Paris for two months, establishing policies that tended toward a progressive, anti-religious system of social democracy, including the separation of church and state, self-policing, the remission of rent, the abolition of child labor, and the right of employees to take over an enterprise deserted by its owner. All the Roman Catholic churches and schools were closed. Feminist, socialist, communist and anarchist currents played important roles in the Commune. However, the various Communards had little more than two months to achieve their respective goals."Paris Commune - Wikiwand - https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Paris_Commune
(DIR) Post #AVv2C4t8jJhiDy9P5E by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T10:21:38Z
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@scandrof yeah, the commune actually had a really good system figured out
(DIR) Post #AVv2C5YyDnAGJhioHg by soc_i_ety@mstdn.ca
2023-05-22T14:49:46Z
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@yogthos @scandrof The problem was? Did they think they could bring the really good system in by force? Did the failure to do so lead to a conclusion that the way forward would have to be more an evolution than a revolution? Faced with the overwhelming might of reaction, did this lead to the belief that the path to the good system required wining the massses over democratically as espoused by Eurocommunism or Democratic Socialism?:mastodon:
(DIR) Post #AVv2C6DjmDm4M8nMpM by davevolek@mastodon.social
2023-05-22T16:04:03Z
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@soc_i_ety @yogthos @scandrof History says that revolutions by force seldom produce the results we are looking for.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnZif3nIWj4gUHQ by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T16:08:16Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof history also says that reformist approach never achieves the desired results, one thing revolutions do consistently achieve is improving the lives of the majority of the people who have been oppressed by the capitalists
(DIR) Post #AVvgnaLeioUQg0vd3o by soc_i_ety@mstdn.ca
2023-05-22T16:26:49Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @scandrof There are limited examples. Reformism brings some good to many, i.e. the New Deal. Revolution might also bring some good to some for a while, i.e. Cuba. What revolution brought in lasting peace and prosperity to meet the needs of people?:mastodon:
(DIR) Post #AVvgnb2u815Iq9AATI by davevolek@mastodon.social
2023-05-22T16:32:22Z
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@soc_i_ety @yogthos @scandrof These revolutions brought new promise, but eventually disappointment settled in. When I read the Wiki article of the Paris Commune, it seems the leaders had high ideals, but few skills to implement them. We need to learn new tools of governance.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnbkVVtxl1NYzR2 by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T16:35:58Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof it's great to discuss what an utopia would look like, but the reality is that there is no path towards any utopia under capitalism. And I'll take proven and tested methods for abolishing capitalism any day.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnctlEyxWaMttUu by soc_i_ety@mstdn.ca
2023-05-22T16:42:46Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @scandrof I would take proven methods too but none appear to have yet demonstrated success any more so than democratic ones.It has been an interesting conversation. I sincerely wish anyone endeavouring to end oppression "all the best!":mastodon:
(DIR) Post #AVvgndVgxxIgU0eBcW by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T16:45:56Z
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@soc_i_ety @davevolek @scandrof again, I implore you to read about what communist revolutions have accomplished, and look at what their results are still accomplishing today https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience
(DIR) Post #AVvgne6Yksn6KLtd5M by soc_i_ety@mstdn.ca
2023-05-22T16:54:06Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @scandrof Will do! Although, I have read some, I will read more on this.I also consider the concept of Gramsci of a war of transition. Every time society becomes more democratic, every New Deal, also lifts millions out of poverty.All the best!:mastodon:
(DIR) Post #AVvgnedWmJA7ybJxTM by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T16:58:50Z
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@soc_i_ety @davevolek @scandrof the question to ask is why things have regressed so far back from the New Deal, and another important aspect to recognize is how much western lifestyle is supported by colonialism.And pretty much the only place where meaningful poverty reduction is happening is in China https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-povertyAll the best.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnfDgbs5NmkEppg by soc_i_ety@mstdn.ca
2023-05-22T17:02:13Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @scandrof Good question! I think we are aligned that Capitalism is problematic. The means to the end of changing the world is my only question. :mastodon:
(DIR) Post #AVvgnflMaf1ZTBzjKC by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T17:09:53Z
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@soc_i_ety @davevolek @scandrof right, the question is what the right way to transition from capitalism is. I'm personally disillusioned with what the western left has been able to accomplish in the past century. Capitalism in the west today is as brutal as it's ever been and I don't see any real power in the hands of the people.I don't know what the solution is, but whatever people are doing now is clearly not working.
(DIR) Post #AVvgngIKc5Ob7RQ3iC by davevolek@mastodon.social
2023-05-22T17:12:19Z
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@yogthos @soc_i_ety @scandrof I have a solution that warrants an investigation. But it requires that some average people need to put some effort to bring it into effect. Complaining about the elite won't work. Expecting the elite to fix things is naive. This new democracy will be built by the people--and for the people.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnh3plTORUldzkm by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T17:23:04Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof I think the real question is around creating a vision that's inspiring enough that a critical mass of people subscribes to it in order to achieve systemic change.There needs to be a common idea of what people are working towards, and how that will be achieved. Then this idea needs to be communicated in a way that actually gets people motivated to work towards it.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnhcDhctnDPjSLo by davevolek@mastodon.social
2023-05-22T17:26:15Z
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@yogthos @soc_i_ety @scandrof The Occupy movement of 2011 met many of those requirements. While it seemed to have the skills at organizing protests, it did not have the skills of governance, probably not even internal governance.My alternative democracy need not find mass appeal. That will come later. It only needs 1% of the population to start building it.
(DIR) Post #AVvgni73qxZKl4A5QG by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T17:45:03Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof I certainly would love to see this work, but until it's tried and proven we won't know how it works out in practice.I do think it's worth noting that most revolutions start out as peaceful and well meaning movements. The reason they turn into revolutions is because these movements are met with lethal force from the security forces of the state.I highly recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds for a bit of historical perspectivehttps://valleysunderground.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/blackshirts-and-reds-by-michael-parenti.pdf
(DIR) Post #AVvgnj4GIqvLifrMhM by davevolek@mastodon.social
2023-05-22T17:50:02Z
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@yogthos @soc_i_ety @scandrof The TDG will be an experiment in a new democracy. We will learn and keep ways that work, replace ways that do not work. But to not conduct this experiment because the TDG is not proven will mean more Paris Commune situations that do not pan out. Or perhaps fascist takeovers.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnjhbwYOpgiGn20 by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T18:09:07Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof that's another important aspect to be aware of, any idea is competing with other ideas such fascism that are rapidly spreading within western society.This is a large part of the reason why successful communist movements turn militant.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnkGhq4TLRYgojY by davevolek@mastodon.social
2023-05-22T18:16:29Z
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@yogthos @soc_i_ety @scandrof If we get to the stage of a right or left takeover, the losing side will not be easily suppressed. Unlike communism. Whether democracy continues to bumble along or there is a valid takeover, that future has already been written. So much depends on the players int he back rooms--which is not us. But we can start building a new democracy.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnko1qB7x6uHQfo by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T18:36:41Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof there is no historical basis to suggest this would happen. In fact, history consistently shows that communists movements are the only ones that have successfully defeated the right.Building democracy is how communist movements start.The reason that revolutions are successful is because communists engage with the masses and educate them.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnlSRPvSB8FBhfE by davevolek@mastodon.social
2023-05-22T18:43:10Z
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@yogthos @soc_i_ety @scandrof When my grandfather returned to Slovakia in 1965 for a two-week visit, he was followed by agents the whole time. Some relatives would not take him in. Communism has its good points. It also had its dark points. We need to learn from the experience, and go beyond what today's ideologies are proffering.#tiereddemocraticgovernance
(DIR) Post #AVvgnm6qzfmP9a5yee by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T18:56:14Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof again, it's important to understand the historical context here, the reason USSR was a militant society has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with the fact that it existed under siege from the west through its entirety.Western powers invaded USSR in 1918, then it was plunged into WW2, and then the Cold War right after.There is no example of a communist society being allowed to develop peacefully.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnmjUg0gj5QApsm by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-22T23:23:33Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof it had to do with also the violent wars waged by the Bolsheviks. They repeated the mistakes of Maximilian Robespierre all over again. If you purge all your opposition, you are preventing the development of a democratic and socialist society.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnnGog7LKkllRp2 by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:27:08Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof history does tend to rhyme as they say, I do think that it's important to recognize that USSR was the way it was because of the conditions it originated from.It's important to separate the problems of USSR from the idea of communism in general. If there ever was a systemic change in the west, it would look very different because social norms, material conditions, and many other things are different. Each set of conditions is unique.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnniozzkE9croTQ by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T18:58:00Z
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@davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof and if your idea for this new democracy would actually take power away from the capitalist ruling class, then it will fight it the same way it fights against communism.The west is a dictatorship of the capital owning class, it is not a free and democratic society.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnnusHBNyl0VRGC by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-22T23:33:12Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof I would say there is nothing wrong with the idea of communism, but I oppose violent revolution. Only through a unified political labor movement can revolutionary change occur. Also you need to prevent a new class from forming. The USSR suffered from an oppressive neobourgeois dictatorship and was not communist or socialist in any meaningful sense. If you disagree, tell me why the USSR dissolved and fell prey to Neoliberalism. If you want communism or socialism or whatever the fuck you call it your faction need to out-compete your rivals, not start a war with them and purge them.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnoXrwCZshwka2a by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:41:24Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof nobody was accumulating capital in USSR and exploiting people to do so. USSR suffered from many problems, but being under a dictatorship of neobourgeoisie was not one of them.Also, it's not really a sound argument to claim that the dissolution of USSR 70 years after the revolution was rooted in USSR being formed through a violent revolt.And of course, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and China are still around. So, clearly this was not inevitable.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnp6xpieOSnAbk8 by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:28:31Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof in my view USSR demonstrates that a socialist economy can function at scale, and we should learn to understand both the positive and negative aspects of this experiment in order to do better going forward.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnpElMitAqyopto by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-22T23:43:09Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof china is a market economy. Vietnam and Laos are poor countries. All of them are dictatorships
(DIR) Post #AVvgnpzCa42HB0XvHc by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:44:12Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof China allows aspects of market economy, but pretty much all of the core economy is state owned. Also, some of the biggest companies in China, such as Huawei, are owned cooperatively.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnqLtDiBSJNA2e8 by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:43:08Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof having grown up in USSR, my experience is that most people simply didn't care about politics, and that's what allowed liberals to ultimately run a counter revolution.I think that lack of active political engagement in the workplace was one of the main flaws of USSR. Workers should've been much more engaged politically at work, and this should've been connected with the general politics.
(DIR) Post #AVvgnqYeSGOMwx8EXQ by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-22T23:46:04Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof china is a mostly capitalist country by all realistic assessments. If you disagree, why do they have billionaires?
(DIR) Post #AVvgnr9WFBsmnINg0G by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:47:00Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof it's absolutely not, and China having billionaires doesn't make it any more capitalist than having public healthcare makes Canada communist
(DIR) Post #AVvgnrkO27NCddd7T6 by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-22T23:47:54Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof billionaires are proof that capital accumulation still exists in china
(DIR) Post #AVvgnsT3M36OsAWn5c by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:49:06Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof yes, but that does not make China capitalist or mean that capitalists are the class that holds power. China made compromises so that it could exist within the global capitalist system.Until global capitalism is abolished, it's not clear to me how a country could meaningfully do better.
(DIR) Post #AVvgntI6IFw3QUPYem by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-22T23:55:35Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof you could try having an international labor movement that makes all nations collectively move towards socialism. The revolution or whatever you call it has to be international and has to be led by the proletariat! The people have to free themselves, and organically form their own movement! You can't just have a bunch of blanquists come in and poof the opposition goes away and then socialism. You need a vital, popular mass movement that happens in response to late capitalism and the horrors of fascism to reorganize society in a democratic and socialist direction using existing systems and institutions in combination with the weaponization of their labor-power.
(DIR) Post #AVvhCgUJ23xOxQwVZQ by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-22T23:58:19Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof I'm just going to point out that western left has been talking about this sort of stuff for over a century now, and what do you have to show for it today?Capitalism is as strong and brutal in the west as it's ever been, it's managed to roll back many of the rights that workers carved out, often through violence I might add.And now there's a growing popular fascist movement that embraces violence. Things are not looking good it seems to me.
(DIR) Post #AVvhCh5WnfjOosMEaW by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-23T00:01:36Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof I agree, I just think democracy and socialism are fundamentally intertwined. Capitalist democracy and authoritarian socialism are the only two things that have been tried, and what always happens is that they decay into authoritarian capitalism. We need a democratic socialism!
(DIR) Post #AVvhChg2buwEe7ROV6 by yogthos@mas.to
2023-05-23T00:03:42Z
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@jacobrogers256 @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof public ownership of the means of production is a prerequisite for any meaningful democracy, and I simply do not see why anybody expects the oligarchs to simply hand these over peacefully
(DIR) Post #AVvhCiCIfyk6GAX9ma by jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt
2023-05-23T00:04:07Z
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@yogthos @davevolek @soc_i_ety @scandrof that's why you weaponize labor-power, and support democratic reforms! General strikes are key!
(DIR) Post #AVvhCipIKzw0D6mIYy by gabriel@mk.gabe.rocks
2023-05-23T00:20:32.896Z
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@jacobrogers256@tech.lgbt I think @yogthos@mas.to has a serious point in an age where production is vastly separate from workers through specialization, automation, and global supply chains.I'll admit I struggle to imagine what the people "reclaiming the means of production" even means without some serious decentralization of many things that are quite difficult to decentralize.