Post AVek3GfAnXlsBWSnlQ by pkreissel@chaos.social
(DIR) More posts by pkreissel@chaos.social
(DIR) Post #AVeUSxBaEp2C2WqiPY by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T17:03:44Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
Well well well if it isn't cryptocurrency spam coming from the biggest, open instance on the #Fediverse. đI wonder if this is at all related to challenges with moderating an instance of *checks notes* 200k active accounts? Or with moderating new accounts on the only instance actively promoted in the official apps? :thinking_rotate: Thankfully we can always defederate! What's that? It's the biggest instance so there are real concerns about a lot of people losing connections? Whodda thunk it!
(DIR) Post #AVeUSzFYZ1OuRQiusi by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T17:06:42Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
The size of mastodon.social means that it is hard to moderate current accounts there.The fact that it is promoted as *the* instance by the official apps, combined with the fact that in the public mind fedi is Mastodon, means it's difficult to effectively moderate new accounts.And its size also means that bad actors are not compartmentalized into small, manageable groups on defederate-able instances.This is bad.
(DIR) Post #AVeVwIZpswI0jekXw0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-05-14T17:24:13Z
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@rysiek kinda the opposite. This makes us easy to block the instance and fix the problem. If the same spam bots attacked across many instances at once it woulf be much harder to manage since we woukd have to silence many instances as they pop up.
(DIR) Post #AVeW7tYyiBowdCsVv6 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T17:26:17Z
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@freemo I strongly disagree. If you're an admin, go ask your people with accounts on your instance how they feel about the biggest instance on fedi â where they are bound to have a lot of contacts, follows, etc from â getting defederated from. And see what happens.
(DIR) Post #AVeWDs17NCB3ZctD9M by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T17:11:12Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
There was this blogpost I wrote about this huge instance issue, but maybe I should not toot (ha!) my own horn?Ah screw it, seems on-topic and important:https://rys.io/en/168.html
(DIR) Post #AVeWDsYnLz7FG4e6ds by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T17:22:32Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
The size of mastodon.social is breaking the moderation story of the #Fediverse.Moderation on fedi relies on:1. instance admins and moderators being able to manage bad actors on their own instance;2. instance admins being able to defederate from insufficiently moderated instances.Mastodon.social's size and the speed new accounts are set up there means that 1. is unworkable. The size of m.s. and the clout of some of its users means 2. is a hard decision.
(DIR) Post #AVeWX94ICXlTxWZ7VQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-05-14T17:30:51Z
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@rysiek the solution for spam is a silence not a suspend, so thry can still folllow and interact with whoever they want with none of the spam, and easy since yiu only need tk silence a single instance
(DIR) Post #AVeWi00gDhlB3D3EoK by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-05-14T17:32:26.480183Z
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@rysiek It also relies on having enough tools, like mastodon moderators/admins are helpless when spam waves aren't centralised on a single instance but instead use a bunch of different open-registration servers or a spam software directly targeting ActivityPub.
(DIR) Post #AVeWpkUNoIj9EKdjkW by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T17:33:09Z
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@freemo does silencing an instance mean that if a spambot on it @-mentions me, I don't get a notification?Because I don't think that's the case.
(DIR) Post #AVeWy2InSurwnFAk3E by freemo@qoto.org
2023-05-14T17:35:41Z
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@rysiek Actually that is exactly what it means, you wont get notifications from the server except for people you follow.
(DIR) Post #AVebCWPCjpik1nKeR6 by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-14T18:12:36Z
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@rysiek It's got to be stopped, and it will only get worse the more it grows.I've been keeping an eye on the meter at https://instances.social/mastodon.social and it currently shows mastodon.social as 13.8% of all Fedi users.I know it will be painful for people to defederate from 1 in 7 users, but it will be a lot less painful than 1 in 4, or 1 in 2, or wherever it is heading for on the current course.
(DIR) Post #AVebCX2COqudyjZnDU by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T18:14:23Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@FediThing I wonder if a coordinated one or two day temporary defederation from m.s by a lot of other instances, announced ahead, would provide enough of a shock to the system for this to start getting fixed?
(DIR) Post #AVebEyAwSecyjZpPJA by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-14T18:17:25Z
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@rysiek Yeah, might be worth considering!I'm waiting for the next update of the official app to see if they fix the onboarding. If they leave it as it is, with m.s still promoted as the main way to sign up, that will say a lot about their intentions (IMO).
(DIR) Post #AVebEyna8zXIfPuGXI by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T18:18:11Z
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@FediThing wait, did they mention they are considering removing m.s as the blessed default?
(DIR) Post #AVebEzPVrxsSZ3eYeu by selea@social.linux.pizza
2023-05-14T18:23:31Z
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@rysiek @FediThingReally? Did they?
(DIR) Post #AVek3GfAnXlsBWSnlQ by pkreissel@chaos.social
2023-05-14T17:07:58Z
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@rysiek Spam has nothing to do with the size of the instance. They might as well run distributed attacks.
(DIR) Post #AVek3HKeJKwqG9rvPc by stanford@social.arclight.pro
2023-05-14T20:02:12Z
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@pkreissel @rysiek Starting a distributed attack would also spread the moderation load.If I would like to start spamming in the fediverse, massive instances like mastodon.social would be my go-to place.1. They federate with a lot of other instances, so the reach is great.2. The moderation team is already busy with their "normal" users. No way they are able to manage my automated spam within a reasonable timeframe.3. Due to the fact that they are that massive, many other instances hesitate to take any action against the instance itself.And even if they do, I still have a good reach locally on the instance.
(DIR) Post #AVemG9St4VlpX6zKPA by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-05-14T19:34:13Z
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@rysiek @pearlbear do you have an idea beyond closed registrations for detecting & handling spam? Because these attacks are constantly evolving, and a lot of people are working hard to fight back the attacks & fix federations to propagate suspensions quicker too â defederating can't be the answer because then the attacks will just move to other instances.
(DIR) Post #AVemGA5AmAOZRqtu52 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T19:47:12Z
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@thisismissem let's start with closed registrations on the biggest instance out there, which happened to be the source of three major spam attacks over the last 10 days.I'd like to see a fedi where the biggest instance is no larger than 5% of the active accounts; m.s currently is at ~13%. That's simply dangerous.Defederation is not the solution, but it is sometimes necessary with badly moderated instances.@pearlbear
(DIR) Post #AVemGAoY3Sgvia88o4 by louis@emacs.ch
2023-05-14T20:27:03Z
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@rysiek @thisismissem @pearlbear I wonder why Mastodon gGmbH doesn't even consider closing sign-ups on mastodon.social or even doing manual approvals even for a few days until this gets all sorted out and at least some automated solutions are in place.What do they have to loose? Is there money involved?This would show a sincere effort on their side and everybody would be supportive.But I get it, doing so would be an admission that there is an issue with the size of mastodon.social, attracting all the spam bots like a UV insect killer lamp.
(DIR) Post #AVemRUIDyRx3JcPEsy by downey@floss.social
2023-05-14T20:29:06Z
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@louis They did manual approvals a few waves back, but only for a few days and apparently without taking any further precautions, and without any public apology or announced plans.@rysiek @thisismissem @pearlbear
(DIR) Post #AVemaECdANWY1DxQPo by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-05-14T20:30:42Z
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@louis @rysiek @pearlbear as mentioned, closing signups wouldn't prevent these spam waves, but it would add friction to people new to the fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AVenDgICf9LsQpNPgu by louis@emacs.ch
2023-05-14T20:37:49Z
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@thisismissem @rysiek @pearlbear Don't you see the friction mastodon.social are causing to the whole Fediverse by the inaction of Mastodon gGmbH? It has much bigger implications than a few users who need to wait for a manual approval for a few hours. Mastodon.social is pissing off a huge number of Fediverse users and admins right now and the number gets bigger with every wave."Causing friction" sounds like a corporate representative-speak from Facebook or Twitter.Also, I don't believe that closing sign-ups won't prevent these spam waves for most of these accounts were created recently.
(DIR) Post #AVenPkMJN15QWB3FwW by louis@emacs.ch
2023-05-14T20:40:00Z
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@thisismissem @rysiek @pearlbear Btw. re: friction. I still receive Spam reports to this minute thanks to the frictionless approach of mastodon.social.
(DIR) Post #AVenSGwXC4ko9hCO3s by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-05-14T20:40:29Z
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@louis @rysiek @pearlbear the spam would just move to the next instance that's well connected, or they'd change the attacks to use multiple instances all at once; keeping the spammers targeting m.s is a good thing for the entire fediverse as we build out better tools to fight spam across the entire fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AVenrSbywoQXaHb1t2 by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-05-14T20:45:01Z
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@louis @rysiek @pearlbear that'd be because suspended accounts aren't immediately federated to announce that status to recently interacted with instances: that's changing soon, Claire did up a PR for this that'll hopefully be merged & shipped soon, which will mean as soon as m.s suspends, all other instances recently contacted by that account will receive the suspension notice too.
(DIR) Post #AVeoLnyi4VGSXThExc by louis@emacs.ch
2023-05-14T20:50:30Z
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@thisismissem @rysiek @pearlbear If what you describe would be true they would have already done that. I think you are engaging in conjecture.There are currently 12,137 known active Mastodon servers and mastodon.social is the only one with regular spam issues. For us in fact it is the only one since we started operating and now it is a daily issue.Your narrative is sugarcoating at beat.
(DIR) Post #AVerPHVV2YM4quNnSi by codesmith@techhub.social
2023-05-14T17:18:51Z
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@rysiek Do you have an opinion on what a more healthy max user count would be? Besides "less."
(DIR) Post #AVerPIEsJqeR7dc2Bk by salarua@ohai.social
2023-05-14T20:55:31Z
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@codesmith @rysiek i think Pixelfed pledged to close registrations for their flagship instance at 10k users, but i can't find a source for that. i think this is an acceptable upper limit, because if the 90-9-1 rule applies, there'd be 9000 lurkers, 900 people occasionally active, and 100 people frequently active. that's manageable for a team of several mods
(DIR) Post #AVerPmNmFJb6bw0ZEG by ocdtrekkie@mastodon.social
2023-05-14T19:55:37Z
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@rysiek @thisismissem @pearlbear It's not dangerous: While there are a lot of accounts in number, there are very few in influence. Most community members are elsewhere. Raw numbers is far from a useful measure, especially when a lot of them are bots.
(DIR) Post #AVerPnC7E9rb83Ylgu by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T19:57:48Z
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@ocdtrekkie I disagree as I have seen it before:https://rys.io/en/168.html@thisismissem @pearlbear
(DIR) Post #AVerPoEzKxkuNFuZo8 by ocdtrekkie@mastodon.social
2023-05-14T20:03:29Z
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@rysiek @thisismissem @pearlbear We are so far from having a monoculture problem it isn't even funny. There's two healthy forks of Mastodon, and multiple entirely different breeds of software such as Misskey, Pleroma, and their related forks. And literally dozens of clients.People taking alarmist positions about mastodon.social are being hostile for the sake of hostility.
(DIR) Post #AVerPotOui58OaoqnY by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T20:12:03Z
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@ocdtrekkie if you want to say that I am "being hostile for the sake of hostility", just go on and say it, don't hide behind "people taking alarmist positions".You are entitled to see what I say this way. I am allowed to draw analogies with a very similar network that had a very similar active accounts distribution, and then got almost killed by the flagship instance removing itself from the equation.We don't have to agree, and at this point I don't think we will.@thisismissem @pearlbear
(DIR) Post #AVerPpSqmuREAXPA3M by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-05-14T20:27:12Z
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@rysiek @ocdtrekkie @pearlbear I'm almost certain that m.s ain't going anywhere anytime soon, and there's definitely no plans to drop activitypub (because that'd be very silly)But still, even if m.s disappeared overnight, that still leaves >85% of the fediverse intact, which certainly shouldn't be a death knell.
(DIR) Post #AVerPq6YPICI9fyrwG by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T20:30:28Z
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@thisismissem I was so certain identi.ca was not going anywhere that I quit :birdsite: cold turkey about 7mo before identi.ca got pump-io'd.> But still, even if m.s disappeared overnight, that still leaves >85% of the fediverse intactHow many of these 85% of accounts have important contacts on m.s? Identipocalypse also left ~90% of the network intact, and yet most people who remember this remember it as a calamity for the network.@ocdtrekkie @pearlbear
(DIR) Post #AVerPqfeIoGnuWOtdo by pearlbear@social.overlappingmagisteria.org
2023-05-14T20:33:05Z
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@rysiek @thisismissem @ocdtrekkie My concern is primarily new(er)users who sign on to m.s just because it's the default, or just because it was easiest (I started at m.s.) As it gets bigger and more difficult to handle, these users are the ones who are going to get caught in the middle, and may end up leaving the #fediverse because of it.
(DIR) Post #AVerPrcqkhcos86Auu by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-14T20:57:43Z
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@pearlbear Yes and I also worry that trolls will target Black and queer people specifically. The crypto spam is just annoying, like all spam, but after the very specific targeting of high profile activist Black women who moved to Mastodon from Twtr (leaving their new address on Twtr) after the November exodus, I worry that will be repeated. @rysiek @thisismissem @ocdtrekkie
(DIR) Post #AVerwxPgFsLyNVidHM by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T21:00:09Z
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@Lucinda basically, Mastodon-the-company is making promises all around, to others on fedi and to new people joining fedi being funneled onto m.s, that m.s will always be moderated amazingly well.And I don't think they will be able to keep these promises. Which, due to the "Mastodon-is-fedi" thing, will reflect very poorly on all of fedi.@pearlbear @thisismissem @ocdtrekkie
(DIR) Post #AVerwy1xxWyiIFdCxE by vfrmedia@social.tchncs.de
2023-05-14T21:02:27Z
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@rysiek @Lucinda @pearlbear @thisismissem @ocdtrekkie trolls are *constantly* targeting folk on here; but they more often use their own smaller instances, behind the scenes instance admins are constantly defederating those. To be fair many medium-size/larger instance admins /do/ stomp on troll accounts quite quickly as they don't want to risk being defederated
(DIR) Post #AVerwztX1rQ64fhV5M by vfrmedia@social.tchncs.de
2023-05-14T21:06:20Z
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@rysiek @Lucinda @pearlbear @thisismissem @ocdtrekkie there's however a problem due to the international nature of Fedi, timezones and potential language barriers, I remember a few years back trolls from Western countries targeting Japanese run instances to take advantage of the 8 hour time differences. The solution to this is to recruit a very multicultural range of mods who know multiple languages and are active in different time zones (which some instances do now have)
(DIR) Post #AVetbCbZI9Nx2328Nk by peterkal@mastodon.social
2023-05-14T20:56:17Z
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@rysiek Mastodon getting bigger makes Spam inevitable. The team is handling it well, especially if you consider how understaffed they are. I don't wanna go into the was-it-right discussion for the default instance, but always complaining about a reasonable decision at the end kills the platform.
(DIR) Post #AVetbI0DDx4LlvbNzM by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T20:57:49Z
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@peterkal > I don't wanna go into the was-it-right discussion for the default instance, but always complaining about a reasonable decision at the end kills the platform.I disagree that was a reasonable decision, and I have historical example of why an instance that is the home of >10% of all active accounts is dangerous to the whole network.
(DIR) Post #AVetbLeNf3yz5NQ0W0 by peterkal@mastodon.social
2023-05-14T21:04:57Z
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@rysiek Why was the decision not a reasonable one? The problem is that decentralization is hard for many potential users to understand and that action solves it. If you agree or not is a different topic and has nothing to do with reasonableness. 1/
(DIR) Post #AVetbMC3dqvAlpAu0W by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T21:05:55Z
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@peterkal > Why was the decision not a reasonable one?Because trying to decentralize through centralization is not going to work.I'm tired of making the same arguments over and over again, so I put them in a blogpost:https://rys.io/en/168.html
(DIR) Post #AVf2JLK72N04RlQZ72 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T20:18:48Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
I want to be clear I am not advocating de-federating from mastodon.social today. I used de-federation as an example to underline the problem related to the size of m.s.And as many people have noted in replies to this thread, there are many other tools at admins'/mods' disposal, like silencing an instance.Defederation is a nuclear option and should only ever be used as an absolutely last-resort.
(DIR) Post #AVf5g5qt1d7szCITzs by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-14T19:05:56Z
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@FediThing @rysiek Defederation should be a nuclear option only for virtually unmoderated servers in my book. Blocking larger servers doesnât do any good, doesnât encourage users to migrate or set up own servers, and seems self-defeating. Better would be help mid to smaller servers do better distributed outreach and onboarding and teach users on big servers the value and ease of moving to smaller servers. And I say this as an admin of a small/medium server.
(DIR) Post #AVf5g6bgDeYZKKBqvw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T00:04:22Z
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@tchambers> Defederation should be a nuclear option only for virtually unmoderated servers in my bookFunny, I've been arguing this too, but I'm starting to come around to @FediThing's position. The combination of John Mastodon's decision to funnel most newbies into his mega-instance, with the persistent crypto-spam coming from it, is the final straw for me. Something's got to give.(1/2)@rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVf6QrY21dAoEVmNEG by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T00:13:06Z
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@louis @rysiek @pearlbear there's a fix coming soon for this, it's already merged on main, just needs to be deployed to m.s
(DIR) Post #AVf6S0RQRf4m6aEbI0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T00:13:16Z
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@tchambersI suggest drafting an open letter and getting it signed by other server admins. Tell John Mastodon his instances will be defederated if he doesn't address the problems they're creating. My suggestions for the conditions;a) reverse the decision to funnel all new users of the official apps into his instancesb) manually approve all new accounts on them to weed out spammers(2/3)@FediThing @rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVf6iKfF1bRLSUTvKC by thisismissem@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T00:16:16Z
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@louis if m.s is such a problem for your userbase, which has a relative niche interest area compared to the general public, I'm wondering why you've opted to *not* defederate it?
(DIR) Post #AVf7Ea1hRaAwN1MaMS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T00:22:02Z
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@tchambersc) close registrations for at last a week whenever spam or other serious abuse is (accurately) reported, so mods can redirect their attention from pre-approving new accounts to weeding out Bad Actors among existing ones.d) maintain a mod to user ratio of no lower than X per thousand.Thoughts? (3/3)@FediThing @rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVf7mL4DZKoVovdeMq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T00:28:10Z
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@tchambersAnother possibility, maybe John Mastodon's instances need to be hived off as platform cooperatives? Even if they stay under the umbrella of the Mastodon not-for-profit, they could be democratically managed by the people actively using them. That was JM could focus on the governance of the dev community around the software.@FediThing @rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVf7r9LYZXkWv02hlY by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-15T00:28:58Z
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@strypey @tchambers @FediThing I don't find ultimatums useful. Plus he already knows what needs to be done.
(DIR) Post #AVfDKuCLxRqGOWkITY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T01:30:25Z
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@thisismissem> closing signups wouldn't prevent these spam wavesManually approving new accounts would mitigate the spam coming from m.s, the first I've ever seen in almost a decade in the 'verse.> it would add friction to people new to the fediverseThis isn't a feature, not a bug. As well as limiting access to spammers and other pests, it also pushes us towards slow, organic growth from the edges. Preferable to rapid, tumor-like growth of a few giant servers.@louis @rysiek @pearlbear
(DIR) Post #AVfHndfIuEOBKhFB5c by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T02:20:27Z
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@rysiek> I don't find ultimatums usefulIt's not an ultimatum, just a statement of fact. Some admins are already Limiting m.s. Defederation, like winter, is coming if he doesn't get House Mastodon in order.> Plus he already knows what needs to be doneMaybe. I'm no mind reader, so I don't know. At least if it's stated openly, a) he definitely does know, and b) there's evidence of due process when people complain about defederation.Who knows, he might even listen?@tchambers @FediThing
(DIR) Post #AVfRcL2CphYtuJCqm0 by to3k@mastodon.tomaszdunia.pl
2023-05-15T04:10:29Z
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@louis @rysiek @thisismissem @pearlbear They did (manual approvals) several time before. But how is this solving anything? This is a problematic situation. What kind of automated solution would you see here? đ Ability to register account after connecting a credit card? đ
(DIR) Post #AVfjwu20DwepPk4CEC by Zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com
2023-05-15T07:35:56.869514Z
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@rysiek You're still a nigger, despite being right about this.
(DIR) Post #AVfk9TCvGXGDzCAPtw by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T17:09:48Z
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@pkreissel spam is a moderation issue and as such has everything to do with instance size.If I am a spammer, I *know* that if I set up an account on huge, popular instance, it will be easier for me to spam a lot of people fast. I also know that admins of other instances will have a tough nut to crack with the question: defederate or not?If I go with a smaller instance, the admin might notice me sooner, and if not, other instances defederate sooner.
(DIR) Post #AVflSqhsDifYK8Rs48 by louis@emacs.ch
2023-05-15T07:52:52Z
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@to3k As one of "those smaller instances" (quote from Gargron) I pretty much review every user sign-up. It takes me only a few seconds because we do not get thousands of registrations per day, unlike mastodon.social.The key is: distribution of users over many instances. Spread the moderation load and stay happy.This was the initial vision of ActivityPub and Mastodon.
(DIR) Post #AVfmmqgE82AxzGmLKq by to3k@mastodon.tomaszdunia.pl
2023-05-15T08:07:41Z
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@louis ah yes about that I would totally agree. Decentralisation is a good thing here, promoting mastodon.social as âmainâ instance is inevitable and thatâs the biggest problem, because with that many signups it is impossible to manage to moderate properly. On the other hand blocking registrations may cause the situation in which people will resign from joining Mastodon and somewhere else.
(DIR) Post #AVfnyvcpfTXaknVzDE by louis@emacs.ch
2023-05-15T08:21:05Z
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@thisismissem THEIR FOLLOWERS HERE: 2,577OUR FOLLOWERS THERE: 1,556And we have only 420+ MAU.It would severely disadvantage our users if we cut ties with m.s. Also, I see defederation only as a last resort to protect users from illegal content.I know that "if you don't like it, just defederate" is the slogan we hear from Gargron and his team all the time while concurrently he works actively on growing m.s. so fast that it makes it impossible to do so [for every other serious instance].Our data shows that less than 3% of all mastodon.social accounts actually move to another instance. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This obsession of fast growth undermines the principles of decentralization and fairness in free online communities. It also highlights the importance of implementing tools and strategies that promote equity and prevent instances from exerting excessive control over the network. All the arguments I heard from Mastodon gGmbH and their followers ("reduce friction for new users", "they want just the default", "just defederate if you don't like us", "other instances should just be isolated") are contrary to the nature of the Fediverse and a slap in the face of every Fediverse contributor.However I think it would be best to conclude this conversation until the person in charge, @Gargron makes a statement himself about his view and plans.
(DIR) Post #AVg9B6yhNnQaTZORuq by laurenshof@calckey.social
2023-05-14T19:17:54.039Z
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@rysiek@mstdn.social @pkreissel@chaos.social This is exactly why a spam attack from a 10k MAU sized server would be so much worse. Those instances dont have 24/7 mod support, so its easy to hit the attack when mods are not available. And other admins will indeed choose defederate way quicker instead of mute, which will irreversibly sever all follow connections.Im really not sure why you're so excited about the possibility of earlier/easier defederation.
(DIR) Post #AVg9B7cP0BBeShy9nk by laurenshof@calckey.social
2023-05-14T19:37:32.530Z
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@rysiek@mstdn.social @pkreissel@chaos.social like, to make this very practical and concrete: mstdn.social has 1 admin and 2 mods, all publicly known, and all very easy to find out which overlapping timezones they operate in. It also has open signups, so you can execute the exact same crypto spam attack as is happening now.Having other admins go like 'oh this is a smaller server, so we can defederate, its fine', would suck pretty bad.I think there is a lot of criticism to be had that there is not better tooling to deal with spam (see Matt Blaze about DM's for example). I just dont see how criticizing m.s. would actually solve the spam issue as it would just move to the next biggest open signup server.
(DIR) Post #AVg9B8A4yy7q99j3IG by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T19:39:03Z
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@laurenshof @pkreissel and yet that crypto spam attack happened from mastodon.social, three times over ten days.> I just dont see how criticizing m.s. would actually solve the spam issue as it would just move to the next biggest open signup server.Solving a problem one step at a time is a legitimate way of solving a problem.
(DIR) Post #AVg9B8mMgcka3tdcy8 by pkreissel@chaos.social
2023-05-14T19:45:20Z
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@rysiek @laurenshof you cannot solve spam attacks unless you do some sort of control at the entrance. Thatâs the only way to stop it. Instance size has nothing to do with it. That Mastodon.Social was targeted first is probably due to it being well known.
(DIR) Post #AVg9B9RqCPvY8X2kcK by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T19:51:40Z
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@pkreissel @laurenshof the size matters as well. If I am a spammer, why would I attack a tiny instance that is likely not well connected and would be quickly silenced/defederated from if admins fail to act fast, if I can attack a huge instance that is extremely well connected and much more unlikely to be defederated from or silenced by admins of other instaces?..
(DIR) Post #AVg9BAXu7MN5Xct6hs by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-05-15T12:18:11.609921Z
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If I am a spammer, I'll automate buying domains and launching instances to spam from.It's not that expensive to do and if your scam spam is making you money it's totally worth it
(DIR) Post #AVgB0TvttehMON8xvM by jnbrgr@mastodon.social
2023-05-14T19:21:27Z
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@rysiek Criticize the status for good reasons (as you do) and make small instances more attractive (e. g. content), visible and accessible (open development tasks, e. g. regarding overall, instance-independant, comprehensive usabilty, moving features etc.) instead of criticizing mastodon.social for growth and welcoming new users to the Fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AVgB0Uc5MoRUVCseg4 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-14T19:43:32Z
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@jnbrgr there are very good reasons to criticize the single-point-of-failure and the growing risk mastodon.social has become to the rest of the fediverse.I have seen this happen before, with a precursor to today's version of fedi, and it set us back years. Check the rest of the thread, there's a link to a blogpost explaining why m.s size *is* in fact a problem and a risk.
(DIR) Post #AVgB0VBtDh5AIFdFU8 by jnbrgr@mastodon.social
2023-05-15T04:15:03Z
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@rysiek still: https://mastodon.social/@jnbrgr/110282364863955058
(DIR) Post #AVgB0VnowfQKBtNXbk by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-15T11:32:59Z
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@jnbrgr other projects need to improve and they do, just look at Calckey.But if the public mind "Mastodon = Fediverse", if most people join the flagship Mastodon instance, and Mastodon-the-software really goes out of its way to hide the fact that other software types exist, saying that it's only down to other projects improving is simply disingenuous.
(DIR) Post #AVgB7JfaS9aAaYlvMW by lonelyowl@lor.sh
2023-05-15T12:40:21Z
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@rysiek > Doge ai-meme-shitcoin airdrop scam > on mastodon It sounds like an intentionally built combination of things considered the most annoying and unwanted here, it's likely not a scam but direct suspend/mute bait
(DIR) Post #AVgIgXq6Shx4LjR6jg by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T14:04:52Z
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@strypey @rysiek @tchambers I guess everyone will have their own "red line".It's worrying in itself that we are having to guess his intentions, as it shows the project isn't operating openly and also shows that one person has far too much power. It's the monoculture Rysiek was warning about a while ago.My suggestion would be we wait to see how the official app behaves after its next update? To see if there is any reaction at all to the concerns? Or is that too long?
(DIR) Post #AVgKXxOYHFsouXa9IG by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-15T14:25:53Z
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@strypey @rysiek @FediThing Anyone is free to defederate anyone, but everyone can ask "to what end?" Defederation is a fundamentally self-defeating tactic to fighting centralization. And when does it stop? The top 3 largest servers etc? Top 10?Much better: focus on growing the middle and lower end serers than blocking the big.
(DIR) Post #AVgxvw2UrkFprugsQC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T21:47:16Z
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@FediThing> My suggestion would be we wait to see how the official app behaves after its next update? To see if there is any reaction at all to the concerns? Or is that too long?I see no reason to wait. People have been complaining about John Mastodon's cavalier attitude towards the rest of the 'verse community for years. It's time a group of admins stood up to him together, and made it clear what's expected of fedizens with the level of power and responsibility he has. @rysiek @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVgy8y10pXANlID6Ho by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T21:49:30Z
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@FediThingIronically I've often been the one defending his right to run his projects as he sees fit ; ) I still believe that, but I don't see anything wrong with the rest of the community making our needs and expectations clear. It's a better option than just quietly defederating and grumbling amongst ourselves.@rysiek @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVgzeLzRqIER380bhY by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T14:59:52Z
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@tchambers @strypey @rysiek There's a danger is that the more m.s grows the more the network effect will kick in.I'm often having to deal with people on @feditips who think m.s is better because it's where everyone is going anyway.There could be a feedback loop where growth causes growth.Also, as m.s gets bigger there's more chance of it being sold to someone worse. Eugen might change, or get bored, or get an offer he cannot refuse (not mafia, but just a lot of money đ ).
(DIR) Post #AVgzeMbjXwrAxrvBNQ by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T15:01:36Z
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@tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips Growing middle and low ends is what used to happen on the old onboarding, where it asked people to choose a server.It no longer does that, and people are no longer being driven to middle and low ends.That alone should be cause for concern.
(DIR) Post #AVgzeNFRAKcEx0UtGK by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-15T15:06:23Z
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@FediThing @strypey @rysiek @feditips The proper use of "network effects" should be to rally the thousands of mid-range and smaller servers to grow, and to encourage users to migrate to them from M.S. not to balkanize or fragment the Fedi. Onboarding doesn't only happen at the JoinMastodon level unless folks don't push it at the local servers. BTW: the new onboarding now only apply to the mobile app, right, the web UI is unchanged? And don't most use other apps now (Ivory, icebubes etc)?
(DIR) Post #AVgzeNpaztXUl9Plce by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-05-15T15:28:52Z
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@tchambers @FediThing @strypey @rysiek @feditips Most people who are new to Mastodon will use the âofficialâ app because thatâs the most logical place to start.
(DIR) Post #AVgzeOfLtSwJLfd6IK by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T15:35:31Z
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@ramsey Exactly and there were a lot of people here insisting that Mastodon needed to make the onboarding process easier for newbies who don't understand the fediverse (most new users but also quite a lot of less new ones apparently, which is fine, people shouldn't have to be working in tech or sociology to figure out how a complex social media service works). Choice is great until it's overwhelming and self defeating! Starting simple is good.@tchambers @FediThing @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVgzePGDgOQjC0sXlA by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T15:38:38Z
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@Lucinda @ramsey @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips That's an argument for having one server suggested, not an argument for having the biggest server suggested.It is just as simple to sign up on (for example) mas.to as it is on mastodon.social.There is zero need to have the biggest server by far being the default.
(DIR) Post #AVgzePivxdOmd4JTW4 by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T15:37:55Z
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@ramsey So the issue in some ways is less the sign up part of the onboarding process but the follow up to the initial process that would involved newbies getting help getting set up and making info about use and instance options available. That might cut down on the "frustrating helpful but didactic stranger" fedisplaining problem too. @tchambers @FediThing @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVgzePoxbEDevl8HuS by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T15:41:48Z
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@FediThing Any suggested server would become the biggest anyway and since Eugen is being made responsible for this (by people in the fedi) then choosing one of the servers Mastodon runs really does make the most practical sense. Now, having a rotating roster of well run servers might be a better option (but that would also make some people angry and a lot of smaller servers don't want to be the entry point for all the random newbies).@ramsey @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVgzeQozsZqK2A9pbc by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T15:44:15Z
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@FediThing Do YOU want the instance you mod for being the main entry point for newbies? What is your vision for a better process?@ramsey @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVgzeRLFwdeBeDFat6 by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T15:47:21Z
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@Lucinda @ramsey @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips A better process is easy:Suggest one server, but it is picked at random from a pool of servers with reliable track records going back a year or more (or whatever criteria you want to apply).If new people don't care what server they're on, then they won't care if it is picked at random like this from a trusted pool.
(DIR) Post #AVgzeSUVfidxDCaUwy by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T15:48:28Z
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@Lucinda @ramsey @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips "Any suggested server would become the biggest anyway"No, this isn't true.They can rotate which server is suggested so that the growth is spread out.
(DIR) Post #AVh0R1ZEYwVPtmxHqS by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T15:51:45Z
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@FediThing I don't see how this would end up being any different at all and how it would solve spam or moderation problems of being the entry point (so growing in size and facing similar size problems). Do YOU want your instance to be part of this lottery?@ramsey @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVh0R2BAHuqZnQhZy4 by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-05-15T15:54:27Z
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@Lucinda @FediThing @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips Any instances in it would have to opt-in and probably meet certain criteria, like how the server list on joinmastodon works, now.
(DIR) Post #AVh0R2feSZEXJyxvUG by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T15:55:42Z
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@FediThing Still really curious about your own ambitions for your instance and whether you would want to be an onboarding server and why you'd make that choice for or against it for your instance? I'm not judging either way, I just think transparency about our own interests and agendas is hugely important on the fediverse and in these conversations.@ramsey @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVh0R2nRzZTJiAc9dw by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T16:02:22Z
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@ramsey Sure, I'm all for rotating the entry instance but they'll still all be big instances or people looking to become big instances opting in. A lot of established instances have been limiting their growth, it's the newer ones that seem to be keen to get much bigger (often run by rather fedi naive new admins it seems to me too!) @FediThing @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVh0R3a150Ju8nKwLI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T22:15:16Z
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@Lucinda> I'm all for rotating the entry instance but they'll still all be big instances or people looking to become big instancesI'm not sure why you think that. They'd have to be instances with open sign-ups. But that doesn't necessarily mean they'd be big nor wanting to be big. They could close sign-ups when their active users numbers reached their preferred size, and ideally the app would detect that and automatically remove them.(1/2)@ramsey @FediThing @tchambers @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVh0zQ0EDctbWtywuu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-15T22:21:28Z
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@LucindaThe app could give people this choice;* create my account anywhere that will host me!* ask me a few questions to help me find a suitable home for my accountThe questions could be used to funnel people into location-based instances (eg send kiwis to mastodon.nz), or interest-based ones (eg send greenies to climatejustice.social), which would allow more niche servers to participate.(2/2)@ramsey @FediThing @tchambers @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVh1g0cSTA7NFyAl1s by mariyadelano@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T22:28:32Z
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@strypey @Lucinda @ramsey @FediThing @tchambers @rysiek @feditips this made me think of two potential implementations:1. Include a visual progress bar to show how close to capacity any given server is. This could be added to something like the server list on join mastodon 2. Introduce additional guidelines and rules to the Mastodon covenant that define good moderation and capacity to properly moderate in terms of manpower, number of moderators, and user size per instance
(DIR) Post #AVh205glKaJmlqlH5U by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T22:32:49Z
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@strypey Because it seems that many older instances with proven track records that want to stay small have already shut down signups (and are invite only) because the November wave was already too much. (That said, the fediverse is vast and varied so there are probably some exceptions.)Anyway, I think all of this one app to rule them all idea just makes it more confusing and complicated and still doesn't represent the fediverse but Mastodon.@ramsey @FediThing @tchambers @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDAdNFqrhPm3Ii8 by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-15T15:49:35Z
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@FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @rysiek @feditips Then a FAR, FAR better use of energy on decentralization would be to do a group fundraising, to offer to enable a round-robin onaboarding at the Mastodon.social level. If they chose to do that, the group raising that money would offer a donation to fund it. Positive change, not fragmentation.
(DIR) Post #AVhCDD08SCGCkwiVSy by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T18:43:40Z
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@tchambers Oh that's an interesting idea.@FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDFGA3aGflEEKiu by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-15T18:46:24Z
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@hrefna the round-robin idea has been kicked around ever since the "default instance" thing happened. Perhaps even much earlier.The problem is not getting good ideas on how the onboarding can be improved, the problem is that Eugen refuses to consider them. @tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDG1fCyGW8YSGlU by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T18:50:52Z
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@rysiek In a real way I don't think it requires mastodon.social to be on board at all. Run it as a nonprofit, set up a website, streamline the onboarding process with a variety of servers, send people to the new onboarding page, etc. It's a _ton_ of work, but of all the groups you need buy-in from Eugen isn't one of them.It won't work on "joinmastodon" but "mastodon" (and the fediverse) are bigger than just that one entry point.@tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDGnWL2XwWyqUMK by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-15T18:53:34Z
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@hrefna that's actually a very good point.If all the rest of fedi â including admins of Mastodon servers that are fed up with Gagron â banded together and built a single, reliable, safe, and usable entry point to the Fediverse, that would be a pretty powerful thing to do.@tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDHYfVkGCtCu8qe by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-05-15T19:15:13Z
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@rysiek @hrefna "If ... built a single, reliable, safe, and usable entry point to the Fediverse ..."Done:* attractive home page: https://fediverse.party** apps: https://fediverse.party/en/miscellaneous** servers: https://fediverse.party/en/portal/servers@tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDIPqK2nLY7mbjM by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-15T19:18:40Z
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@boud I am aware of all of this existing, and while it's great it does exist, it's nowhere near what we're talking about here.@hrefna @tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDJ5foWFtdrM0vo by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-05-15T19:39:43Z
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@rysiek I don't follow.Is one of these criteria missing?* reliable* safe* usableIn terms of "all the rest of fedi ... banded together", isn't a git repository about the best way to band together in an open, transparent, participatory way that can easily be forked in case the maintainers become authoritarian?* https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty@lightone @hrefna @tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDJifTXRnanb9iC by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-15T19:43:55Z
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@boud it's really not usable enough to be a default landing page for all new fedi users.As far as safety is concerned, we would need some BIPOC people to help design this to make sure PoC people joining fedi land on instances that are safe for them. That's not a given even with large, well-known instances.Yes, git repo is great.@lightone @hrefna @tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhCDKKxBC4XVXVjO4 by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T21:44:30Z
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@rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips If we want to set up an alternatives to JoinMastodon etc, we have to stop calling this place "mastodon".Eugen owns the trademark on that word in relation to social networks. This gives him the legal right to say which app is official, which servers can use the name "Mastodon" etc.We would have to get people to be aware of the Fediverse as a word and a concept (which is why I have been doing posts like this https://mstdn.social/@feditips/110361969188890029).As for safety, as far as I know fediverse.party does not curate servers based on safety or reliability. If you're going to have a portal, it has to have human beings screening which servers are listed.I've done this on https://fedi.garden by just asking servers to commit to the same terms as the Mastodon Covenant, which seems a reasonable starting point. If they're already trying to be on JoinMastodon, it's easy for them to comply with identical standards.
(DIR) Post #AVhU682qHVFsX3kyUi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T03:47:38Z
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@tchambers> Anyone is free to defederate anyone, but everyone can ask "to what end?"If you reread the preceding posts, you'll see that the goal of my proposal is to *avoid* mass defederation of m.s. while getting John Mastodon to listen to the rest of the fediverse community and cooperate as a peer, and not in the House of Lords sense. Honestly, what hasn't already been tried? @rysiek @FediThing
(DIR) Post #AVhUmandlIZrsNtVqq by mentallyalex@beige.party
2023-05-15T15:03:29Z
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@FediThing While I think that is absolutely a problem in the short-term, I'm hopeful that the 'cool factor' of being on the biggest instance will quickly erode away as people find instances that more properly represent them.The ones that stay will either be entrenched and wouldn't leave anyway - or are temporary residents who aren't likely to maintain a presence.As a community, I think it's important to focus our efforts on the group that will migrate away from m.s. As a non-admin, it really looks like there is some 'in-fighting' on what it means to be an admin on Mastodon now. I think if that is settled out a bit and we can find a path forward - lanes will begin to emerge for people to drift into more naturally.@tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhUmbPvSxCbn7o5Wi by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T15:06:52Z
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@mentallyalex @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips You can follow the percentage of the Fediverse on mastodon.social here:https://instances.social/mastodon.socialAt time of posting it's 13.8%If people were moving off m.s to other servers, that number should not go up.
(DIR) Post #AVhUmc53045zqf2vce by mentallyalex@beige.party
2023-05-15T15:18:49Z
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@FediThing Well, I'm not trying to argue but no - that isn't how that works. If 30 people join m.s and 29 transfer off - it's positive growth overall even though only 1 person stayed and they had a 99% attrition rate.But regardless, I think the core issue is, that users don't know/care what server hosts them. They want to meet up with their friends, work with people, collaborate on jokes and make memes and use this environment as a pure consumer.They don't even *think* about these kinds of questions and they don't care to try. They are the user and we tailor the systems to their experience. When we're good - they reward us with numbers. When we struggle, they leave for the new hotness.We need to design the experience around making it easy and comfortable to get users onboarded and settled out into their spaces. @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhUmcmIPGgs0nHT28 by the_roamer@mastodonapp.uk
2023-05-15T15:58:48Z
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@mentallyalex @FediThing @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips Hi Alex. "They are the user and we tailor the system to their experience."I think from your other remarks, your position is more nuanced than in this statement. On its own, the statement does not align with the reasons why people build the fediverse. We have nothing to sell. Volume is not an end in itself.Why not: "We are the members and we want to make our network productive for ourselves and welcoming to new members."
(DIR) Post #AVhVMFbM3NUIYY9QAK by nlarson830@techhub.social
2023-05-15T15:29:46Z
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@mentallyalex @FediThing @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips 100% this, Alex is on the bullseye.
(DIR) Post #AVhVMGDzjiOcUOEHOS by mentallyalex@beige.party
2023-05-15T15:38:04Z
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@FediThing No, I'm sorry but you're fuzzying the math I believe.You said:>You can follow the percentage of the Fediverse on mastodon.social here:https://instances.social/mastodon.socialAt time of posting it's 13.8%If people were moving off m.s to other servers, that number should not go up.----The 13.8% is from the growth of Mastodon.Social, not the Fediverse or other servers. Growth in this number is directly correlated against users on the system.If the fact is that M.S is maintaining 13.8% of the Fediverse - than that is a separate metric. I'm not being argumentative, I'm explaining why we are not on the same page.But, to be completely honest, as I mentioned - even assuming that the math was right, or sourced properly or was being presented in a way that would not cause argument. I still believe that the core is that asking users to educate themselves while being onboarded is not going to be useful.I understand your concern, and I share it. I just think the responsible parties (us) should be designing a system that doesn't push the problems onto the people who don't *need* to be here. They really won't care if it turns to crap, because they aren't invested in it. We care, because we're invested. We hold the responsibility here.@nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhVMGkFnmCU6RK2fw by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T15:46:07Z
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@mentallyalex @nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek "They really won't care if it turns to crap, because they aren't invested in it. "If they don't care about trashing a place built over many years by thousands of volunteers, they sound like terrible people who should be avoided.This is the situation:https://tech.lgbt/@FediThing/110349930342025093
(DIR) Post #AVhVMHDK3hS7YavFz6 by mentallyalex@beige.party
2023-05-15T15:54:26Z
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@FediThing I really wish you would listen instead of being mad at me.We are a vegan restaurant. They are meat eaters. *You* are saying "Those meat eaters are taking over our vegan establishment!" and I am saying, "yeah we should likely give them a different menu" and your response is to say they sound like terrible people.They're not terrible people. They are just meat eaters who don't know that we're all vegans.Instead of yelling at them that we are vegans. Instead of making rules and laws to prevent meat eating. Instead of looking down on them as lesser people who should be avoided, we should begin asking questions about how to handle them and make them part of our solution and us a part of theirs.You can't make racists unracist. But you can educate people and they can choose to correct their racism. I know it sounds like semantics but it's not. It comes from a position of ownership.*I* can't make you listen to me. I can make you understand that I'm not arguing with you. But I can outline why I think you're arguing with me and I can ask you to stop. This is the same thing.You don't own Mastodon. You *can't* own the Fediverse. You can only own your footprint and how you interact with it. They are the new people to this conversation, not us. So we own the responsibility to control that conversation from the position of learned. We shouldn't reject them or just shut them down and expect them to understand why.@nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVhVMHgOJchl0kWTIG by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T15:56:43Z
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@mentallyalex @nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek If you walk into a vegan restaurant and say they must serve you meat, what kind of person are you?"You *can't* own the Fediverse"You can if your server has the majority of the Fediverse on it.
(DIR) Post #AVhVMIJNydtexglc4e by mentallyalex@beige.party
2023-05-15T16:04:38Z
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@FediThing No you can't.Because those people aren't owned. They are just simply there. It's a market, not a prison.I believe the solutioning we are looking for is the same. We both want reduction of the sheer pressure Eugene can apply to the Fediverse due to his size.Our disconnect, I believe, is in the methods used to reduce that size and the pressure he can push onto us.I believe that social media, and the general public, will make pretty words but ultimate vote with their wallet. What I mean by that, is they might support "Mastodon" publicly, but they'll 100% jump ship and support BlueSky or NewThing2 just as readily. Because I feel that way, I believe the *mutual* goal of "increased distribution of resources across a wide array of systems" is best represented by further empowering the users to make decisions *easier* and to have a more transparent experience by having the smart people like yourself and others design an interface that allows them to make decisions on their own.There are only a few of you. There are BILLIONS of them. You might be fast - but you will never be faster than the herd. The only way to work with the herd is to understand the flows.@nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVhVMK5dMk5KTcLeuu by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T16:10:25Z
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@mentallyalex @nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek You are putting together a recipe for disaster:-Most new people don't care what server they are on-Most new people are now (for the first time) being driven to m.s without even being asked to think about it-M.s is by far the largest instance and a wave similar in size to the last one could make it a majority of the FediOnce a majority of people are on a single server, and they don't care what server they're on, and they don't want to be inconvenienced by federated features, they will have zero incentive to leave.The makers of Mastodon own m.s and they might decide to prioritise server-internal features rather than federated features, because these are much easier to code and most people are on one server anyway.The pressures on development will favour centralisation very very strongly, and we'll end up exactly where we started with Twitter.At the same time, the Masto devs will get offers to be bought out.(1/2)
(DIR) Post #AVhVMKk2wUPYUxFvuK by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T16:12:05Z
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@mentallyalex @nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek If you're thinking "masto would never sell out", have you taken a look at their sponsors?The front page of joinmastodon is covered in casinos. This was brought up, Eugen didn't have a problem with it.What else will he not have a problem with?(2/2)
(DIR) Post #AVhVMLQEPe9gbmzcf2 by mentallyalex@beige.party
2023-05-15T16:15:36Z
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@FediThing I don't disagree with anything you said.We are very vulnerable right now. I'm glad we agree. I believe the solution is to build in an escape route to educate people while we still can using the established communication bridges that exist. Specifically deploying a marketing campaign using long-term data sources such as websites and more reactionary Q&A system like your FediTips network.Fighting Eugene is silly. He holds all the cards and has no incentive to work with you. Fight where he is weak. He is but one man, he has but one tool - Mastodon. It was positioned to take over when Twitter went south and Eugene has maximized that to his advantage.Now we need to address what we have at our disposal.* Your network (FediTips)* Me (the collective me, not Alex) and my opinions@nlarson830 @tchambers @strypey @rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVhVMLtIfZPK3wapyC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T04:01:35Z
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@mentallyalex> Fighting Eugene is silly. He holds all the cards Not yet. We all agree effective action needs to be taken before it gets to that point. This is a dry run for a scenario where an actual adversary like CloudFlare or Meta rolls out AP support and climbs past 10% of total users.> he has no incentive to work with youIf admins of a large share of the network nailed some 95 theses to his door (or even 3-5), then he might realize he does.@FediThing @nlarson830 @tchambers @rysiek
(DIR) Post #AVhVw8hfB7adaRDNPE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T04:08:17Z
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@tchambers> rally the thousands of mid-range and smaller servers to growThis is important too. Those of us doing projects like fediverse.party and FediTips (@FediThing), and setting up hosting companies (me), are already doing everything we can. But doing this and reigning in m.s are not mutually exclusive. It's hard to sell a social media UX with persistent spam and abuse from overgrown, under-moderated servers. See also my comment about this being a dry run. @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhXZ0LaHPwiv0z3GS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T04:26:30Z
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@boudFediverse.party volunteer here. Thanks for the hat tip :)But I agree with @rysiek. The project was started the last time a big influx of newbies started mistaking Mastodon for The Network (TM), but its founder didn't set out to be the universal entry portal for the fediverse, and I doubt they'd want to be that. We just do our little bit, hosting and linking to educational resources for the community. (1/2)@hrefna @tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhapkivv7UtFUaBoO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T05:03:07Z
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@boudI do like the idea of a...>, reliable, safe, and usable entry point to the Fediverse... independent of John Mastodon and his company. There are a whole bunch of projects like fediverse.party and @FediThing's projects, stats sites like the-federation.info, instance choosers like instances.social, @PaulaToThePeople's sites like joinfediverse.wiki etc. If a bunch of us worked together on a portal...(2/2)@rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @ramsey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhbQO2HEjMJb86Cky by alm@mastodon.online
2023-05-15T19:21:47Z
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@tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @rysiek @feditips Would it be a terrible idea to have onboarding instances? "Find a home after 90 days or we will politely suspend this account." I've been meaning to migrate, for a while now, but never get around to it.
(DIR) Post #AVhbQP0BdzHUaw838a by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T05:09:45Z
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@alm> Would it be a terrible idea to have onboarding instances? "Find a home after 90 days or we will politely suspend this account."I love this idea! Would be great even for veterans who want to kick the tyres on fedi software we haven't tried. It would need to be made very clear that all posts would be deleted after 90 days. Some way of marking onboarding accounts too, so the rest of us can actively invite cool folk to our instance.@tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhmCOkEu1BfErC7GK by ljrk@todon.eu
2023-05-16T07:10:25Z
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@strypey @Lucinda @ramsey @FediThing @tchambers @rysiek @feditips I personally found "interest" less helpful than "moderation policy". I.e., what kind of stuff will be blocked/filtered?While a lot of stuff I post is about infosec as well, I'm happy at todon.eu which is an explicitly leftist place. But I agree with pretty much any moderation policy here. And since that's virtually the only difference in day-to-day usage b/w servers (at least for me), it's crucial to take this into account.
(DIR) Post #AVhmf73FlU2clHmR1c by oscherler@tooting.ch
2023-05-16T07:15:18Z
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@rysiek @strypey @tchambers @FediThing Between his number of members and his de facto status of âmain instanceâ, Iâm not sure he gives a shit being defederated by what he probably sees as anecdotical instances, but itâs worth a try.
(DIR) Post #AVhuD8XLRqVOtS1gzw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T08:40:14Z
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@Lucinda> this one app to rule them all idea just makes it more confusing and complicated and still doesn't represent the fediverse but MastodonBang on. This is precisely what we're all here to complain about đAs I said to @tchambers in another post, fixing the overgrowth and under-moderation of m.s - which affects us all - isn't mutually exclusive of taking other actions to grow from the edges, help bring more instances into being, etc.@ramsey @FediThing @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhua3eZlpcgPNL23M by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-05-15T22:31:26Z
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@FediThing The Fediverse.party list of instances *is* curated by humans including @lightone :https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/commits/branch/main/source/en/portal/servers/index.mdAs for safety or reliability assessment, people active there may wish to speak for themselves, but recent edits such ashttps://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/commit/d285473ffb9dc2176a3767910d6a1ac10b3f2eb0seem to mostly be for instances that are listed as safe spaces and/or for minorities.@rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AVhua4K3HcneU0k9hY by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T22:35:41Z
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@boud @lightone @rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey Is there anywhere on fediverse.party that lists their criteria for inclusion?For example do they require servers to give warning if they're shutting down?Do they require at least two admins?
(DIR) Post #AVhua4uv4YI4KLzbAO by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-05-15T22:37:36Z
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@FediThing @boud @lightone @rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @strypey Would love to be able to mute a thread. Not that I donât want to see this discussion, but my watch keeps buzzing my wrist. đ
(DIR) Post #AVhua5UivQvk7OkByS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T08:44:20Z
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@ramsey> Would love to be able to mute a threadYou let social media apps send notifications to your devices? Why would you do that to yourself?No judgement, but the first thing I do when I start using a new UI is turn off all notifications, then selectively turn on only the ones I really need or want.@FediThing @boud @lightone @rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda
(DIR) Post #AVhuvTGjjBczw0OkGe by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-05-15T22:45:02Z
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@FediThing The top ofhttps://fediverse.party/en/portal/serverssays "Information about adding a server can be found here" which links to: https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/src/branch/main/ADDING-SERVER.mdThe history of changes to that criteria page is here:https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/commits/branch/main/ADDING-SERVER.mdI don't see those two criteria in the list.@lightone @rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVhuvTrFXQpplFTuBE by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T22:50:36Z
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@boud @lightone @rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @strypey Those criteria make no mention at all of moderation or reliability? :/
(DIR) Post #AVhuvUd6fV7G9fs7m4 by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-05-15T23:02:53Z
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@FediThing If there are people willing to do the work to make realistic assessments of moderation + reliability, then it's worth proposing those as criteria.People willing to do that work could post an issue athttps://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/issuesor find out from @lightone about using complementary communication such as fediverse threads.My guess is that Fediverse.party people don't want to state criteria that sound good but are not checked in reality.@rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVhuvVJe7L8yHbm652 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T08:48:14Z
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@boud> My guess is that Fediverse.party people don't want to state criteria that sound good but are not checked in realityFed.party volunteer here. The whole project seems to be in a bit of a hibernation state. I've only just started getting back into doing stuff after a 2 year hiatus. There's certainly no capacity to do anything we're not already doing, without a fresh influx of volunteers.@FediThing @lightone @rysiek @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda
(DIR) Post #AVhvmkOOnFLGOGO0HY by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T22:31:20Z
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@mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey We don't know what he will do, and that's the problem.Anything built around the word "mastodon" is ultimately at his mercy legally:https://joinmastodon.org/trademarkFor example... "You may not use the Mastodon word mark, or any similar mark, in your domain name, unless you have written permission from Mastodon gGmbH."Also, we don't know who he will sell the trademark to. He could sell it to anyone. Developers sometimes get bored and leave, especially if someone dangles money under their nose.Anything he accepts, he can take back at will unless you make him sign some kind of contract. He is maintaining full rights to the word. The word isn't part of the FOSS licence that the software has.
(DIR) Post #AVhvmlEVfV1ezslcVU by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T22:38:12Z
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@FediThing All these bad faith accusations towards Eugen are pretty toxic. Non-profits register trademarks, he's not just "some developer," he's done a lot of work on making the fediverse relevant and what it is today (as have many other people) and was serious and dedicated enough to the concept to build Mastodon the software and the org. He's not Dorsey starting BS with a rival software that's not W3C standard.@mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @ramsey @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVhvmll7iF76d21fLE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T08:57:49Z
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@Lucinda> He's not Dorsey starting BS with a rival software that's not W3C standardWell he has consistently refused to implement the client>server part of the ActivityPub spec, forcing app devs to support the Mastodon API as a de facto standard. He did move to AP server>server and turned off OStatus support before all the other fedi projects had finished their AP support.(1/2)@FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @ramsey
(DIR) Post #AVhwk734CcSpk3iRaC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T09:08:17Z
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@Lucinda these are just two examples of his habit of pretending the rest of the fediverse community doesn't matter. So we were all a bit twitchy even before this recent 'all roads lead to m.s' decision.@FediThing does overstate their case with mind-reading at times, and I agree that bad faith accusations aren't helpful. But that includes shutting down factual observations and informed criticism as "bad faith accusations". (2/2) @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVhx8Yxq433xGqvfuK by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T22:46:51Z
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@Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey These aren't bad faith accusations, these are sincerely felt worries.Yes Eugen is a fantastic developer, yes he's maybe done more work than anyone else on the Fedi. But he didn't build this place alone.There are thousands of servers out there run by admins and other volunteers who don't get interviewed on CNN, but their work is really important.By telling everyone to sign up on his own server mastodon.social, he is sidelining the diverse grassroots communities that this place is supposed to be all about.
(DIR) Post #AVhx8ZZln1P7AUfy1w by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T22:51:40Z
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@FediThing It's really not Eugen's fault the media wants heroes and can't grasp what the fediverse is. Also, other people have been interviewed (including at least one of the authors of activitypub). Eugen isn't forcing people to sign up to m.s, he's making it easier by giving an obvious choice because people here DEMANDED he do it. He was literally responding to demands from people on Mastodon, including some admins.@mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVhx8aAzYdB71w5h32 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T09:13:00Z
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@Lucinda> It's really not Eugen's fault the media wants heroes and can't grasp what the fediverse isThat's a strawman. Nobody in this thread is criticising his media profile. We are criticising his technical and organizational decisions. The tech press are not responsible for those, he is.He has every right to make decisions in his project. We have every right to disagree with them, and to explain why. @FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVhy6WzUWvYUWeIUfg by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T22:57:16Z
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@FediThing I'd actually point to the people who write the software, which isn't only Eugen and Mastodon isn't the only fediverse software that's built on or to interact with activitypub. But obviously the whole point of the fediverse is that it's a collective effort, by everyone, including people who don't run servers, build software or moderate. If I was writing an article the admins are not who I'd want to talk to!@mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVhy6Xy6tY2pYeeu9o by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T22:58:55Z
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@Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey "If I was writing an article the admins are not who I'd want to talk to!"It's the admins who are moderating this place and paying for the servers to exist. They are the foundation of the Fediverse.Why on earth wouldn't you want to talk to them?Are they too low down the pecking order? Too unglamorous?
(DIR) Post #AVhy6Ya2cWNzSIPCHQ by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T23:01:29Z
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@FediThing Um, no, most good servers (even small ones) have admin that's not involved in moderation and have moderation teams. It removes the admin's ego from the equation and allows them to focus on admin work. Admin/moderators as the one true god run the risk of being petty tyrants with no guardrails. Good servers discuss these issues and have moderation teams.@mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVhy6ZBGO89zJjovIW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T09:23:09Z
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@Lucinda> most good servers (even small ones) have admin that's not involved in moderation and have moderation teamsYou've qualified it with "most" but this is still a huge generalisation. It presumes a server large enough for more than 2 people to volunteer to manage stuff, and there's plenty of good fedizens running instances smaller than that. For a start, there's all the cool weirdos running single-user instances. @FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVhzInv7VpGkScfWgy by peteralee@mastodon.me.uk
2023-05-16T09:37:07Z
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@strypey @Lucinda @ramsey @FediThing @tchambers @rysiek @feditips That would be great. Although I chose a local instance, (uk) that doesnât have a huge impact on how I use Mastodon; most of those I follow are elsewhere.
(DIR) Post #AVi5pkxi8CTuZDybxI by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T22:55:18Z
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@Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey "Eugen isn't forcing people to sign up to m.s, he's making it easier by giving an obvious choice because people here DEMANDED he do it."Why didn't he choose a smaller instance that he didn't own?Why did it have to make the biggest server by far even bigger, and on top of that the one that he personally owns?If you want a specific example, why couldn't it say "Sign up on mas.to"?Why did it have to be mastodon.social?
(DIR) Post #AVi5plm372kP5LWoPw by willy2x@mas.to
2023-05-15T23:09:19Z
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@FediThing @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey He would have to take responsibility for it. Makes sense it was one he had control over.
(DIR) Post #AVi5pmZK9qA9YAaADo by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T10:50:29Z
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@willy2x> He would have to take responsibility for itWho convinced you of this and how? Web browser devs don't have to take responsibility for every webserver. Similarly, people who design browsers for other decentralized networks - like matrix or the fediverse - don't have to take responsibility for every server you can access through them.@FediThing @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVi7sZf8nagUIclJAW by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-15T23:11:56Z
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@FediThing @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @strypey Direct manamgement of quality of service would be one very good reason. Same reason Mammoth app did the same.I do think the round-robin technique would work, and that they should consider that - but makes sense that he started with simpler.
(DIR) Post #AVi7saNo7WPgX9eyn2 by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T23:18:03Z
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@tchambers It's also a good way to fine tune things so they're more robust for larger servers (which the fediverse will inevitably have, diversity in all the things is not bad) and to figure out security weaknesses and so on. I'm also assuming Eugen is really fucking busy between marriage, dealing with fediversians and expanding the org. Like let's remember everyone is just a human, including Eugen.@FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVi7sb2DhGjuYUZFmS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T11:13:23Z
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@Lucinda> It's also a good way to fine tune things so they're more robust for larger serversIf we get more large servers, it's certain they will run on on something other than Mastodon. Unless its rusting, decade-old Ruby on Rails chassis is completely rebuilt using a more scalable architecture. How will Eugen do that kind of refactor while trying to govern 1/10 of all fedizens well? (1/2)@tchambers @FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna
(DIR) Post #AVi84tH7hnQabNOuno by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T11:15:38Z
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@LucindaTBH I worry about Eugen's wellbeing too. I worry he's being a hero:https://yewtu.be/watch?v=rv8lh4AehfA... and he could be setting himself up for burnout.@tchambers @FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna
(DIR) Post #AVi8ilO0SJkjiZdJjM by aswath@mastodon.social
2023-05-15T23:20:34Z
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@tchambersAfter degenerating current top 3, there will be new Top 3. It is like some cos firing the bottom 5%.@strypey @rysiek @FediThing
(DIR) Post #AVi8imKUwqXadz01tw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T11:22:51Z
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@aswathYou're joining a massive thread that's been churning out huge numbers of posts, and getting a bit heated here and there. It's probably better if you read the whole thread so you can reply in context, and avoid getting snapped at by people frustrated with the discussion retreading ground we've already covered. Or... do yourself a favour and leave us to stew in our own juices? ; )@tchambers @rysiek @FediThing
(DIR) Post #AVi9nCrAMbW21nxGXg by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-15T23:29:33Z
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@Lucinda @FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @strypey One other note, here is this, taken from a pretty good sample of Mastodon traffic...So the Mastodon web on-boarding, still has the same choose your server as before right? So all this strum and drang is over the offical app. Here are the app stats by usage: The official one is 4th.WAY fourth - WAY down in terms of Mastodon usage: see how far down compared to the Web, and Ivory. https://betterprogramming.pub/mastodon-usage-counting-toots-with-kafka-duckdb-seaborn-42215c9488ac
(DIR) Post #AVi9nDUW0IzVzqMgsK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T11:34:50Z
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@tchambers> taken from a pretty good sample of Mastodon trafficI can accept this as a breakdown of current app usage. But from what you've said, it tells us nothing about which app people use to create their account. It doesn't tell us how many use the official mobile app first, create an account, realize they can use other apps, and migrate to them. So it doesn't really tell anything on-topic. Does it?@Lucinda @FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @hrefna
(DIR) Post #AViAgPPXO8ImtMM2D2 by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-16T11:44:48Z
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@strypey @rysiek @FediThing There are far better ways than threatening defederation. Organizing a fund to support the mastodon nonprofit build a round robin sign up that shares sign ups across multiple servers from the official app is one.
(DIR) Post #AViAnHA0Sh05KYMe92 by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T23:15:30Z
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@tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @strypey Why even build a decentralised network if you don't trust others to run a server?There are servers on here which have been around for years without incident, he could have picked one of those.Also, on that topic, is mastodon.social really the most reliable server with the highest quality moderation?Mastodon.art had to silence it not so long ago because the moderation was so bad.
(DIR) Post #AViAnHhKSnegztxG5I by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-15T23:19:23Z
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@FediThing @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @strypey I said I think a decentralized round robin is a thing he should consider moving to, I just can empathize why he started somewhere simpler.And it is always simpler to start with things you directly manage and are directly responsible for.
(DIR) Post #AViAnIKg6V8AxwMgPw by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T23:27:48Z
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@tchambers It's where I'd expect anyone to start. Also setting up a round robin is _complicated_. You have to factor in moderation, server load, longevity, etc. Who goes on the list, why would they be removed, etc.Saying "let's just start everyone in this universe I have some level of control over" is much, much easier and more certain.@FediThing @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @strypey
(DIR) Post #AViAnIvts6uApNmPR2 by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T23:29:55Z
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@hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @strypey This is not something new.He has been regularly closing mastodon.social and directing people to sign up on third party servers for years now.You're talking about this as if it's never been considered before.It's when he's stopped doing it and started directing people exclusively onto m.s that it became a problem.
(DIR) Post #AViAnJcRJwvsxJgNk0 by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T23:33:38Z
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@FediThing You seem to be reading something I did not write anywhere. Several somethings, really.@tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @strypey
(DIR) Post #AViAnKBtC9HyjGGgzo by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-15T23:36:56Z
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@FediThingIt is abundantly clear that the process previously _was not working_ for at least some group. A lot of the ideas that are "better" require a great deal of work to make them better. The iteration they are trying is a relatively straightforward attempt to improve a perceived problem because 1. the perfect is the enemy of the good 2. it is very clear the previous workflow _wasn't_ working for a good many people.@tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @strypey
(DIR) Post #AViAnKosrATsgCVpmC by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T23:56:41Z
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@hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @strypey Centralising a decentralised network is not good at all, it's the opposite of good.Who specifically are the people it wasn't working for? People who don't care if it becomes centralised?Growing a network unsustainably damages the network. It would be better to slow the growth down and do it right than speed it up and do it wrong."_was not working_ "If it wasn't working, how did millions of people sign up?
(DIR) Post #AViAnLQSbSXSYk5qLY by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-16T01:11:20Z
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@FediThing "How did millions of people sign up?"Signing up is not the only criteria. How many left when they found out their friends were on a server being blocked in a petty admin squabble? How many never migrated after their server shut down?This is all well established. It's also true that in UX design as you increase options you increase the likelihood of someone throwing up their hands and leaving.@tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @strypey
(DIR) Post #AViAnM1KOO1sP5LHoO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T11:46:02Z
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@hrefna> It's also true that in UX design as you increase options you increase the likelihood of someone throwing up their hands and leavingMaybe that means the fediverse is not for them? Or just not what they're looking for right now?Growth is the highest value for corporations, tumours, viral outbreaks, and house fires. But it's not the highest value for @FediThing, or for me. Making big things grow bigger is not how we work.@tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone
(DIR) Post #AViBlGAzFYY7eYQRV2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T11:56:55Z
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@mastodonmigration> This is well document in dozens of articles on MastodonIs this what we do now? Design-by-committee of huffy tech press hacks? People who half the time don't talk to us to check basic facts? Who have been forecasting our doom in their articles since 2017 or before? See many of the articles from "edited" publications linked here:https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/wiki/The-fediverse-on-the-web)Since when do we work for them? @FediThing @hrefna @tchambers @Lucinda @rysiek @boud @lightone
(DIR) Post #AViC1IPYhwp5Dat7DM by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-16T11:59:47Z
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@strypey we don't, but ignoring feedback is not productive.I would ask you to please relent on this thread, it has ran its course and got way too heated. This is not helpful. There are ways to do what Gargron tries to do in a better, more decentralized way, and we should focus on that. If you think fedi is perfect and needs no improvement, well then we disagree and we should go our separate ways.@mastodonmigration
(DIR) Post #AViCsUOAuDKViLbZw0 by weirdwriter@tweesecake.social
2023-05-16T00:33:17Z
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@rysiek has there been a wiki of instances on the Fediverse? Geard to more social things like is this instance mostly having Blind people on it, what about POC admins? Like, for example, my instance. Tweesecake is a very Blind place. Blind mods, Blind users, etc. @boud @hrefna @tchambers @FediThing @Lucinda @ramsey @strypey @feditips
(DIR) Post #AViCsVIXWePsX9yan2 by liaizon@social.wake.st
2023-05-16T00:36:58Z
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@weirdwriter http://joinfediverse.wiki !!!
(DIR) Post #AViCsVtPJZuINVE2Fs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T12:09:24Z
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@weirdwriter > has there been a wiki of instances on the Fediverse?As @liaizon says, specifically:https://joinfediverse.wiki/Instances
(DIR) Post #AViD7L3ns5HD7s9oY4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T12:12:04Z
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@tchambers> Much better: focus on growing the middle and lower end serers than blocking the big@lewiscowles1986> won't that just make the problem harder? How would it do that?> I am struggling to see any logic thereSame ; )@rysiek @FediThing
(DIR) Post #AViDNLW7wNMVAz2RQ8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T12:15:01Z
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@hrefna> How many left when they found out their friends were on a server being blocked in a petty admin squabble? How many never migrated after their server shut down?Good questions. Do you any data on this? How was it collected and sorted?@FediThing @tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone
(DIR) Post #AViEY5cRUQB10agAPQ by Sheesh@calckey.social
2023-05-16T02:56:04.240Z
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It seems there might be a misunderstanding about the concept of decentralization initially.1. The most significant difference between decentralized and centralized systems is that the former doesn't rely on a central server to store user data and personal information; control is in the user's hands. Essentially, you can think of your device as your own server, inaccessible to anyone else. Some decentralized networks or apps, like Damus and WireMin, don't even collect user data when creating an account. These apps offer a great opportunity to experience the decentralized network.2. You mentioned, "There are servers on here which have been around for years without incident." I'm not sure if you're referring to all Web 2.0 social media platforms never experiencing any incidents or specifically to Calckey, so I'll respond to both interpretations. - Within the Web 2.0 social media realm, Facebook could serve as an example. They collect a significant amount of user data and utilize it for commercial profit. Data leaks are commonplace in the Web 2.0 network. - As for Calckey or Mastodon, I enjoy using them both. They are fantastic platforms for #freedomofexpression. While federated platforms like it generally offer better privacy than centralized ones, user data could still be at risk if an instance's server is compromised. This could potentially expose user data to unauthorized parties. As we are seeing them every news. Literally happens every single day.(There is another potential riskđ¤If a server accumulates a large number of registered or active users, the server's owner has the ability to sell the entire server. Unless you have complete trust in this owner, there's no way to prevent such an event. Furthermore, the owner has the option to sell user data, which includes email addresses gathered during registration.)Overall, it's all about understanding the trade-offs. Decentralized networks might not be perfect, but they sure do give us more control over our data, and censorship-resistant and that's a step in the right direction.@FediThing@tech.lgbt @tchambers@indieweb.social @Lucinda@cosocial.ca @mastodonmigration@mastodon.online @rysiek@mstdn.social @boud@framapiaf.org @lightone@mastodon.xyz @hrefna@hachyderm.io @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) Post #AViEY6LSn2BnGDk7aC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T12:28:06Z
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@SheeshOMG! 𤣠That's the funniest shit I've ever seen. Fedi-splaining to some of the most prolific Fedi-splainers in the 'verse (myself included đ). Either you're a subversive genius, or you didn't read upthread for context and accidentally threw out comedy gold. I don't know which would be funnier đ@rysiek @tchambers @mastodonmigration @hrefna @FediThing @lightone @boud @Lucinda
(DIR) Post #AViEgJo6ceXVKS3gOW by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-05-16T12:29:34Z
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@strypey okay, this is just toxic. If you do not have the patience to discuss in a way that is respectful, don't.
(DIR) Post #AViHFfAhNjXZdJbieu by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-16T12:58:25Z
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@strypey @lewiscowles1986 @rysiek @FediThing The logic is do something that solves the problem of dustribiting users more widely rather than doing something that doesnâtâŚ.and Fedi blocking doesnât do that - and threats to do so unless policy X changes is just self defeating in other ways.But growing the mid level and small servers distributes users around, actually solving the issue âŚand growing the Fediverse, rather than Balkanizing it.
(DIR) Post #AViIr3CB7m4ooJguSu by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-16T13:16:19Z
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@strypey I find the elitist attitude of "you want the fediverse to extend to _those people_ and that's bad" to be a fascinating one. Like it isn't new. I've seen it for years in the open source and "linux on the desktop" communities. It's just fascinating to see it has moved here as well. You got me, I prioritize things like accessibility and improving user experiences. Things I've been told are "values" here.@FediThing @tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone
(DIR) Post #AViK1wgZleVDlDfUjw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T13:29:27Z
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@peteralee> I chose a local instance, (uk) that doesnât have a huge impact on how I use MastodonThe impact of good moderation often only becomes clear when it fails. I suspect that the benefits of a local instance are similar. Having said that, there's local and local. The Aotearoa instances are serving a population of about 5 million. Instances for London alone would be serving nearly twice that many.@Lucinda @ramsey @FediThing @tchambers @rysiek @feditips
(DIR) Post #AViLZby1PBYPIqRfrU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T13:46:51Z
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@tchambers> There are far better ways than threatening defederationI addressed this right in the post you're replying to:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/110376311720666469> robin sign up that shares sign ups across multiple serversThe tech for this already exists. It was removed from the app. It could just be restored.> Organizing a fundYour solution to the best-funded entity in the 'verse purposely over-growing their instance through their control of a major port of entry is to give them money? đł
(DIR) Post #AViO8ThcKB85iMWeoa by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-16T13:20:07Z
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@strypey Choice paralysis is an _accessibility issue_.This isn't about "are they trying to get the fediverse to expand infinitely," this is about "can this work for people who come from differing backgrounds or who don't have hours of time to delve into a 100 choice menu."If you want it to be a niche application for a small percent of tech that's a choice, it just isn't what I've been told is the value here.@FediThing @tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone
(DIR) Post #AViO8UN5pyJ3mzvmSm by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-16T13:34:46Z
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@strypeyI've been told repeatedly that the "culture of the fediverse" has "accessibility" and "inclusion" as core values, but the moment someone tries to make it more accessible or inclusive people come out of the woodwork to explain how they don't want _those_ people here and the people bringing up the problem are "just trying to get it to expand infinitely like a corporate entity [or a cancer]."Which is it? @FediThing @tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone
(DIR) Post #AViO8V1rOOurpR0L0S by hrefna@hachyderm.io
2023-05-16T13:46:38Z
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@strypey I've been told that part of the goal here is to move people off of centralized corporate controlled and managed systems, systems where people are the product. But when it is brought up what would help do that people are repeatedly told that it "isn't for _those_ people" or "_those_ use cases."Even when those use cases are thngs like "microblogging with their friends."Which is it?@FediThing @tchambers @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone
(DIR) Post #AViO8VcNCe7heg5Uv2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T14:15:33Z
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@hrefnaYou're clearly very passionate about this, which is great.But you seem to assume that every failure to turn a toe poked into the water into an active user is a failure on our part. That anything is worth changing to up our conversion rate. This is sales thinking, not community-building. I'm not saying this is unacceptable, it's just not what I value.There are many ways we could improve accessibility and UX for the good of the whole fediverse. Overgrowth of m.s is not one of them.
(DIR) Post #AViOPGRItDclVDtpPk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-16T14:18:37Z
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@hrefnaOr to put it another way...https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/110377940637767943
(DIR) Post #AViOqLCTIUOO5QsBto by tchambers@indieweb.social
2023-05-16T14:23:19Z
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@strypey I found your thoughts on point one unpersuasaive.Point two: I think is not accurate. The app never showed only one featured sign up at a time that cycled in a round robin to a few well chosen others to distribute users around.Point three: yes, I am. Fund the change you want to see rather than threaten to try to force it. And âbest funded entityâ in Fediverse is grading on a huge curve, everything in Fediverse - including Mastodon nonprofit - is resource constrained.
(DIR) Post #AVikWCzQSBxV8uh4Ii by Lucinda@cosocial.ca
2023-05-15T22:59:18Z
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@FediThing Why would he choose some rando's instance? This is just weird that people are obsessed with this. It's so impractical! He's using m.s as an entry point because he can use it to improve the software/eat the dogfood, it's his reputation on the line and people demanded that he do something to make it easier for newbies.@mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey
(DIR) Post #AVikWGBEakBf2PF2ci by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T23:01:14Z
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@Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey "Why would he choose some rando's instance? This is just weird that people are obsessed with this."Some rando?On a decentralised network, you're saying that all instances except the biggest one are some rando?Yes it is odd that people volunteering their time to a decentralised network are "obsessed" with it remaining decentralised.Maybe environmentalists should dial down on their obsession with the environment?
(DIR) Post #AVikWHjeoFJfrSM2uu by objectinspace@freeradical.zone
2023-05-16T00:06:16Z
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@FediThing @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey This is missing the point in a big way. If it "just said" mass.to instead, two things would happen. First, a bunch of people would say "well why didn't they pick mastodon.online? What about mastodon.cloud? Why aren't they pretty enough?" And second, people who sign up would hold the mastodon foundation responsible for things mass.to do and vice versa. Find me one instance that wants to be in that position.
(DIR) Post #AVikWIJ6gRfldOwMAi by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-15T23:02:33Z
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@Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey I don't see any point in this conversation if you have such disdain for the thousands of people who have given their time and money and sanity to try to make this place work.
(DIR) Post #AVikWJDTIsl8SDJN1k by FediThing@tech.lgbt
2023-05-16T00:13:03Z
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@objectinspace @Lucinda @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey They were already promoting third party servers, and listing the criteria too:https://joinmastodon.org/covenantThey already had a pool to choose from, and they could have chosen the most reliable ones from this pool with the longest track records.Switching to just m.s was a step backwards.
(DIR) Post #AVjP5N6IqkHMnrESv2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-17T02:00:55Z
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@tchambers> I found your thoughts on point one unpersuasaiveYou don't think it would help to redirect the rancour we've seen in this thread away from piecemeal defederation and towards opening dialogue with Eugen? Why not? > I think is not accurateOK, fair. But assigning a db of instances (like the one at joinmastodon.social) a number, and coding a random number generator, isn't costly R&D. A couple of volunteers could pair program it in an afternoon.
(DIR) Post #AVjV5fO7SPS1FH5cH2 by f4grx@chaos.social
2023-05-16T15:15:34Z
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@Lucinda @FediThing @mastodonmigration @rysiek @boud @lightone @hrefna @tchambers @strypey could have been a rotated pool of reputable instances...
(DIR) Post #AVjV5gNRmOVWJTmarg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-17T03:08:11Z
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@f4grx> could have been a rotated pool of reputable instancesIndeed. This has been suggested a few times, in this thread alone :)FYI You're posting into a thread that became a flame fest and has now mostly burnt out.
(DIR) Post #AVjXddZ4wTdnLRXf6W by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-17T03:36:36Z
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@lewiscowles1986> if you have the big + a growing middle, would you at-least agree that is a larger n?This is all Geek to me. Maybe write a blog post fleshing out your argument and link it here?
(DIR) Post #AVjYaXBGK0Xod8UD0S by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-17T03:47:23Z
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@lewiscowles1986> How do I work with (or refuse to work with đ˘) large groups of potentially divergent serversWelcome to the fediverse đI'm going to state an assumption I think underlies your thinking here. Please tell me if I'm wrong about this.You assume that the higher the number of servers, the more difficult moderation becomes.If so, this talk by Derek Caelin (@derek) might be a helpful reference:https://conf.tube/w/sLCED7n6351UtA7QrvkSnU@tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVja3p5ytTOQXnXua0 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-17T04:03:54Z
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@lewiscowles1986> How can I receive updates from 5 servers, is a different ball-park to 10,000, 100,000, 10,000,000There are already more than 20,000 servers in the fediverse, see:https://fedidb.org/Do you see this causing technical problems that would be fixed by reducing the number of servers? Because I predict the opposite, that the number of servers is about to massively increase, as more people discover tools like PeerTube, FunkWhale, the WordPress plugin etc.@tchambers
(DIR) Post #AVjipx5PHqH4rOjoPo by f4grx@chaos.social
2023-05-17T05:42:11Z
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@strypey i've seen that later. Not going to add anything more to thus flamewar. Thanks.
(DIR) Post #AVkUlTOeWeHvQAfbVI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-17T14:39:16Z
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@lewiscowles1986> really worries me that this is some sociology point of view, which in practical engineering land doesn't hold upThat's a valid worry, but the best way to see what works in practice is to observe. There are more than 20,000 servers in the fediverse. With the exceptions of a few mute/ blocks by some servers against some others, they can all interact. Whenever one or more people follow or @mention someone on server A from server B, they do.(1/2)
(DIR) Post #AVkV7HESQvT444IYJk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-17T14:43:14Z
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@lewiscowles1986So far it all seems to function fine. Despite the fact that Mastodon is an absurdly inefficient pile of Ruby-on-Rails that eats server resources like an carbo-loading athlete. If more servers switch to more efficient fediverse server packages, I don't see any problem with unlimited N of servers.(2/2)
(DIR) Post #AVm5srZGwkdNsNz53g by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-18T09:09:39Z
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@lewiscowles1986> Do any servers, get regular updates between a number above 9999 instances?Hmm, good question. Not sure how you'd get data about that, but I imagine m.s does.> My concern, as well as moderation is that just increasing updates to a server could crash it or bring it to a haltThis is getting to the event horizon of my knowledge, but I think the shared inbox is supposed to mitigate that. Here's something @aral wrote about this a few months back:https://ar.al/2022/11/09/is-the-fediverse-about-to-get-fryed-or-why-every-toot-is-also-a-potential-denial-of-service-attack/
(DIR) Post #AVoJob9booQBU9lENU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-19T10:55:25Z
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@lewiscowles1986> he doesn't give a solution hereLike I said, the questions you're asking are getting beyond the limits of my technical knowledge. Maybe ask on SocialHub, the semi-official forum for AP dev discussions?https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/Or maybe in the Fediverse City or FediDevs matrix rooms?
(DIR) Post #AVsCw1p8s7j66lx02i by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2023-05-21T07:19:31Z
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@rysiek By refusing to curb the growth of his own instance, Eugen is laying the foundations for its eventual irrelevance by legitimising the scaling story of Big Tech. It might be the biggest instance today but tomorrow thatâll be an instance run by a Big Tech entity with millions/billions in the bank. And there wonât be a moral argument to be made about staying small because one was never made to begin with. Mastodon.social will have played and lost the wrong game.
(DIR) Post #AVsCw2wGj71NZAICn2 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2023-05-21T07:25:26Z
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@rysiek Also, the real problem with mastodon.socialâs size is the power differential. They end up de facto moderating the fediverse.Let me explain: if mastodon.social were to block my instance of one, theyâd be making the decision that thousands of people who want to hear from me canât. If I block mastodon.social, I make it impossible for me to hear from hundreds of thousands of people. Iâve effectively blocked myself. Thatâs a huge power differential. Thatâs the problem.
(DIR) Post #AVsCw3x0xpDChleJai by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2023-05-21T07:35:27Z
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@rysiek But, again, mastodon.social â run by a German not-for-profit â doesnât win the scale game. Silicon Valley wins the scale game. Every time. They created the scale game. They rule the scale game. They ARE the scale game.Want to win against Silicon Valley? Donât play the (vertical) scale game. Change the rules. Embrace horizontal scale. Make number of instances, not instance size your metric of successâŚBut thatâs a longer game and it doesnât have, nor need, CEOs.