Post AVdVCvQutOOOlayxlo by smallcircles@social.coop
(DIR) More posts by smallcircles@social.coop
(DIR) Post #AVdEyrWB3NsBIriP0i by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-11T19:09:43Z
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Remind me: have we talked much, here, about my notion of the “convivial stack”? This is the idea that, to the greatest extent possible, community governance, the built environment and the technological surround should *all, simultaneously* be designed so that they are open, participatory and actively invitational; modular, user-modifiable and extensible; and reward experimentation?
(DIR) Post #AVdEysO3p2yTzyvQzw by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T09:19:01Z
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A convivial stack requires deep and ongoing conversation between people who think of themselves as working in FLOSS, in open-source hardware, in open construction and building systems, in open agriculture, in distributed power systems, and in participatory politics (to the degree that they’re not already, and I’m aware that some of these links already exist). I believe that full agency over the circumstances of our lives requires that we first comprehend, quite literally, how the world is built.
(DIR) Post #AVdEysyDebtjo7qJMG by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T09:22:55Z
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The systems that underwrite our survival on the planet need to be engineered such that we can meaningfully intervene in their operation and improvement, at all ages; that they invite that intervention, and are robust enough that they do not fail in the face of experimentation; that they account for and explain their own functioning; and that they organize non-exclusive communities of practice around them that are more than formally open.
(DIR) Post #AVdEytTllJ8RNybVXE by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T09:27:20Z
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There are so many of the necessary pieces on the table, waiting only for us to assemble them. And though you know I hesitate to overgeneralize from my own position and particularity, what I can tell you from personal experience is that getting stuck into the details in this way is a specific for the alienation and deselfing inflicted on us by the everyday late-capitalist lifeworld. We can be more whole as individuals when we work together toward the creation of systems that sustain us all.
(DIR) Post #AVdEyu5LVbC1GWBW6a by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T10:06:45Z
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What bothers me about this framing is that there’s no constituency for it – at least, no constituency that knows it’s a constituency. It’s a big project, with lots of (at times quite literal) moving parts, and cannot even begin without people in all of these communities taking the initiative to make points of connection – interfaces – with other communities working in parallel. The coordinating of that sort of effort generally requires some kind of banner or empty signifier to rally around.
(DIR) Post #AVdEyuhdDFolBG65mS by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T10:07:14Z
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(“FLOSS” itself is an excellent example of such an empty signifier.)
(DIR) Post #AVdEyvMOlgQZDhAeK8 by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T10:17:21Z
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But please do let me know if the convivial stack is a vision that appeals to you, if you are aware of any of the conversations happening that would underwrite the emergence of a program along these lines, if you yourself have participated in such a conversation, or, indeed, would like to. I’d love to have a better idea of where these negotiations are happening, and who’s currently undertaking any such thing. Give me a shout if you feel like this is you!
(DIR) Post #AVdEyvxcXICZ58aNLE by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T10:39:31Z
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And one final thought, though this is more of a supposition, or even an article of faith: I believe that when we finally understand the profound complexity of the natural world’s systems, our own systems will tend to the robust and simple. The better the understanding we have of the way the Earthly ecosystem sustains itself across deep time, the more lighthanded we can be in our interventions.
(DIR) Post #AVdEywc272Wn6TUeKe by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-12T10:59:54Z
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@adamgreenfield I think the last toot holds the most profound insight. That its by natural force that things establish themselves in sustainable ways.There can be no notion of a "big project", as it simply doesn't exist at a practical level in chaotic grassroots systems. Similarly there's no "coordination" possible. Well, unless that refers to natural forces at work. I increasingly feel that we should focus on the enablement of a single natural force: to facilitate emergence. And seeds'll grow
(DIR) Post #AVdEyx8IB6KeiWaPc8 by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-12T21:59:45Z
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@smallcircles But that’s just it: coordination happens *constantly* across complex adaptive systems, natural or otherwise. (Is a mycorrhizal network a “big project”? I guess that depends on your scale. They do appear to be very, very successful, however.)
(DIR) Post #AVdEyxsjORTl2YJUzw by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-13T06:23:20Z
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@adamgreenfield I see what you mean, and am on the same line of thinking.My thought was in direction of well-intentioned person(s) that wants to start a "Big Project" and coordinate from there top-down a mycorrhizal-like network. Maybe it could work, but failure rates will be huge.Yet we do have Big Industry upholding hypercomplex supply lines profitably. We don't see that in grassroots, "herding cats" FOSS. Why is that?(Btw, 500-char toots isn't the best way to discuss such deep topics)
(DIR) Post #AVdEyyhmKeJPasCGZ6 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T02:39:23Z
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@smallcircles> well-intentioned person(s) that wants to start a "Big Project" and coordinate from there top-down a mycorrhizal-like network@Rushkoff criticized this totalizing approach in older episodes of Team Human. I think we need to be careful to distinguish between projects that try to be the central thing in an existing or potential network, vs. projects that aim to be useful to anyone in that network, and catalyze its emergence.(1/2)@adamgreenfield
(DIR) Post #AVdEyzztWmOhbLgFRQ by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-13T06:28:48Z
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@adamgreenfield there are a bunch of initiatives that found that more of nature should be mimicked to facilitate growth of mycorrhizal-like organization structure. I agree with that. Yet none of those initatives AFAIK have been able to 'roll themselves out' to massive scales. Why is that?In the case of Big Industry are monetary incentives and legal frameworks what holds them together? Are those same incentives applicable to FOSS movement with a different value system and culture?
(DIR) Post #AVdEz2VADUb9MuKFSS by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-13T06:34:02Z
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@adamgreenfield I like another analogy from nature than mycorriza.. the human body.Are there Master Cells in the body that have more authority and coordinate the organism? No. On cell level there isn't a hierarchy. The cells each are like independent initiatives on their own, little factories. They express their Needs by proteins, that intercepted by other cells, who then anticipate the need by producing yet more proteins.The only thing cells have in common is a huge knowledge base: the DNA.
(DIR) Post #AVdEz4RL0gj5NcYDlw by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-13T06:55:56Z
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@adamgreenfield Btw, I am not native English and just did a lookup of Conviviality.. appears I had a somewhat off meaning between the ears, more akin to reciprocity / mutualism. But I wholly subscribe to Wikipedia's description of:> Conviviality, or Convivialism, is the ability of individuals to interact creatively and autonomously with others and their environment to satisfy their own needs.I think this is key, essential ingredient to establish organic networks that work.
(DIR) Post #AVdEz6NVnsr1OKmC5Q by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-13T07:23:04Z
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@adamgreenfield another Btw..Re: Big Industry vs. Grassroots #FOSS I posted to Social Coding Movement:https://discuss.coding.social/t/foss-strategies-why-does-big-industry-work-and-big-foss-ecosystems-dont/192Though topic isn't elaborated much, #SocialCoding adopts a holistic view on the entire Free Software Development Lifecycle, the #FSDL. Which then includes the question "How can fragmented small initiatives find cohesion and thrive in a sustainable ecosystem?"Observation is that the ecosystem must be healthy, so it can evolve. And 'Ecosystem focus' is often absent.
(DIR) Post #AVdFFMty8ZkjGtiLce by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T02:42:26Z
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@smallcirclesIndymedia, CreativeCommons, Loomio and OpenCollective are all good examples of providing a missing tool that's broadly useful to social change efforts, and designed to express their values, without trying to insert themselves as a governance layer.@Rushkoff @adamgreenfield
(DIR) Post #AVdVCvQutOOOlayxlo by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-14T05:41:13Z
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@strypey @Rushkoff @adamgreenfield I see what you mean, and agree on the general idea.The examples you mention.. I don't know if I'd qualify them as "good" when it comes to mimicry of nature. More like the idea is good. They each have their issues (not relevant to the discussion).Imho the friction and barriers they form in efficiently using them together is important. Each added tool to your community toolset increases the chance of failure.See app-free computing: https://social.coop/@smallcircles/110365264533864246
(DIR) Post #AVdZYmWl5HKhKjONDk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T06:30:02Z
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@smallcircles> I don't know if I'd qualify them as "good" when it comes to mimicry of natureThey're good example of trying to catalyze, as opposed to trying to govern. I was agreeing with and expanding on your comment that I quoted.> See app-free computingI think the final comment on that thread sums it up nicely:"Well, that's ... platformization. Become the system that other apps vanish into."https://social.finkhaeuser.de/@jens/110365406831185389@Rushkoff @adamgreenfield
(DIR) Post #AVdaF6jEMoRc9HPNxo by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-14T06:37:13Z
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@strypey @Rushkoff @adamgreenfield Yes. And I am not disagreeing. These apps constitute a move in the right direction.Problem with apps is they offer too much functionality and then overlap with other apps. They are 'buckets of functionality' created from the perspective of a single project/product to be "feature complete". As soon as there's overlap, there's nasty barriers in communication.Take e.g. Github for devs, and Trello for non-devs. They don't integrate well enough, create siloes.
(DIR) Post #AVdbgKG6Go9zsuKEam by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-14T06:40:54Z
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@strypey @Rushkoff @adamgreenfield Or even a chat channel and a forum as tools a community is using. Very common.The chat is low-friction and everyone chats happily.. all the time creating knowledge that should be taken to the forum, which allows for less fleety, long-term nurturing of the information.This however doesn't happen.. lowest friction channel wins out, and no one does the chore of copy/pasting. Or a high-energy facilitator does, and that is just not sustainable in the long run.
(DIR) Post #AVdbgKvvlHcXydtdnE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T06:53:48Z
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@smallcircles> The chat is low-friction... all the time creating knowledge that should be taken to the forumI find myself doing that here a lot ; ) > 'buckets of functionality' created from the perspective of a single project/product to be "feature complete"You've identified some important problems. I came into free code tech looking for activist tools. I hung around because I also saw those problems, and I wanted to help get them fixed. 20 years later...@Rushkoff @adamgreenfield
(DIR) Post #AVdbgM0ZlUvlJL4rfk by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-14T06:42:55Z
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@strypey @Rushkoff @adamgreenfield I know I suggested chat as a means to have discussion on Conviviality, which as @dajb suggested has some irony.Yet now we are using a medium that is maybe even more fleety and low-friction than chat: microblogging.This thread is lost in history in a couple of days, unless we record reminders in other channels and apps.
(DIR) Post #AVdcG2Qy1GNB1kRAuW by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-14T07:00:13Z
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@strypey @Rushkoff @adamgreenfield Yes, problem exists for decades and had several tech hypes trying to address it. E.g. Semantic Web, Service Oriented Architecture. There's the P2P Decentralized Web still going strong.I feel the future is Hybrid Decentralization (federation + p2p) and the Fediverse offers opportunities to explore the App-Free Computing paradigm.Then we are talking "social experiences", open-standards based, at protocol level.Will pass this again: https://fedi.foundation/2022/09/social-networking-reimagined
(DIR) Post #AVdcylLWOkgX3sDTua by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T07:08:21Z
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@smallcircles> [microblogging is] a medium that is maybe even more fleety and low-friction than chatNot sure I agree. Most chat systems can't be easily linked to. It's possible to link to comments in public matrix chats, but the UX is clunky. One advantage of fediverse threads over chats is that it's much easier to link to specific points in them, so they can be folded into more enduring forms on blogs, wiki, and forums. (1/2)@adamgreenfield @dajb
(DIR) Post #AVdda8GK9wFSqibXzU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T07:15:04Z
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@smallcirclesI'd like to see fediverse tools that make this even easier. One-click exports of posts or whole threads - text and any content, with links - into a long-form drafting UI. Which can then one-click export the finished text to my choice of blog, wiki, or text. To the degree that "app-free computing" describes all this, I'm all for it. But I think a more accurate term is platform-free computing.(2/2)@adamgreenfield @dajb
(DIR) Post #AVdfCeAS5IUqlBmr3Y by neil@social.coop
2023-05-13T10:29:52Z
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@adamgreenfield Yes! You mentioned convivial stacks before and your concern about the appeal of that particular framing. But it definitely appeals to me.I'd like to participate in these conversations. I'm currently writing something around 'reclaiming the stacks' / ecosocialist ICT, and reviewing existing tilts in this direction.Very much work in progress, but gives an idea - https://commonplace.doubleloop.net/reclaiming-the-stacks-ecosocialism-and-ict
(DIR) Post #AVdfCes3TBNIwQBg1I by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-13T10:40:12Z
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@neil Tremendous.
(DIR) Post #AVdfCfTzC9iSq3vy8u by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-13T10:58:21Z
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@adamgreenfield @neil Would it be an idea to start a Matrix chatroom on the subject?
(DIR) Post #AVdfCg7KprBwo6LOTY by dajb@social.coop
2023-05-13T11:05:47Z
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@smallcircles @adamgreenfield @neil The deep, deep irony of suggesting Matrix for this 😂 I'd imagine something more like @bonfire would be more convivial?(also this sounds somewhat related to #stacktivism from ~a decade ago? https://stacktivism.com)
(DIR) Post #AVdfCgxRi6sLPij0hU by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-13T11:26:44Z
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@bonfire @neil @smallcircles @dajb It may, admittedly, inhere in my possibly misleading use of the word “stack,” but I feel like that’s too narrow an interpretation. What I have in mind is a logic that extends from the assembly as a forum for collective self-determination through advanced DIY construction systems like WikiHouse. (It’s a shame the creators of the latter turned out to be so intent on centralizing & monetizing it – we badly need some such scheme.)
(DIR) Post #AVdfChddBGcTWYShSC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T07:33:11Z
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@adamgreenfield> It’s a shame the creators of [WikiHouse] turned out to be so intent on centralizing & monetizing itFunding is much more of a limitation in hardware than software, because the tools can't be downloaded, and prototypes have to be manufactured rather than just compiled. WikiHouse was a cute concept, but coming from a permaculture background, I always wondered whether a more general house building knowledge platform might have been better. @bonfire @neil @smallcircles @dajb
(DIR) Post #AVdfCil70wCL02yBkm by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-13T11:29:56Z
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@bonfire @neil @dajb @smallcircles And though I know you know this, it needs to be said and said again every time this comes up: the chief impediment to the adoption of such systems is almost never material or economic but *regulatory* and, more broadly, institutional. The deepest work necessary to create the convivial stack will need to be done by lawyers and protocol specialists – and Doug, that’s where the stacktivism analogy strikes me as being most resonant.
(DIR) Post #AVdfrbGxkjKledMPCq by playinprogress@assemblag.es
2023-05-11T20:10:19Z
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@adamgreenfield I do not know if I am poking a hornets' nest here as I assume you might have strong opinions on the guy, but I just re-read this Christopher Alexander piece from 1996, when he had given up on using Architecture to spread "living structure" and was putting his hope in software instead. But it would make a lot of sense to not see this as an either/or at all. https://www.patternlanguage.com/archive/ieee.html
(DIR) Post #AVdfrcCOJDGsWkEGie by playinprogress@assemblag.es
2023-05-11T20:11:03Z
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@adamgreenfield Possibly relevant quote:"If these software packages are life creating, and accepted, and widely enough spread throughout the world, there is a chance we might get a grip on this problem: provided that the software is freeing, liberating, allows each person individual control and decision making power to do the right thing, and to create living structure, locally, wherever they are. "
(DIR) Post #AVdfrcgsTreq3IUcEq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T07:40:37Z
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@playinprogress> provided that the software is freeing, liberating, allows each person individual control and decision making power to do the right thingWow! Did Alexander and Richard Stallman ever meet? It seems like they would have a lot to talk about. @adamgreenfield
(DIR) Post #AVdlCa5ppgeTqeymOG by dajb@social.coop
2023-05-14T08:40:09Z
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@strypey @adamgreenfield @bonfire @neil I think this thread is showing the unwieldiness of social media threads that @smallcircles pointed out 😅We need to be able to *visualise* this discussion (a la @Chartodon), grok what's going on, and then chart future directions.Chats often don't work because they're too synchronous. Forums are better but sometimes don't work because people write diatribes.Perhaps there's actually a role for machine learning here to summarise, etc. 🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #AVdt9DEPAuchhytOgC by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-14T08:16:52Z
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@smallcircles @strypey @Rushkoff Can you do me a favor and remove me from this fork of the conversation going forward? Thanks.
(DIR) Post #AVdt9DsSlyfLiDdO7M by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T10:08:42Z
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@adamgreenfieldSorry, willdo :) @smallcircles @Rushkoff
(DIR) Post #AVevS6HhcaS0jQWrTc by neil@social.coop
2023-05-14T15:16:21Z
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@dajb @strypey @bonfire @smallcircles Right. I can't make much sense of these threads already! I find microblog style social media pretty hopeless for any detailed discussion (though great for finding the people you want to talk to in the first place - I like Margaret Wheatley's description of network -> community of practice https://margaretwheatley.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/KosmosJournal-WheatleyFrieze-SS15.pdf). A forum or similar would be grand.
(DIR) Post #AVevS6vlDeUejfGqum by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T22:10:02Z
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@neil > A forum or similar would be grandWould this forum be a good place for such a discussion:https://discuss.coding.social/@smallcircles?@dajb @bonfire
(DIR) Post #AVezuB7bd7zpeuRzfs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-14T22:59:54Z
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@adamgreenfield> have we talked much, here, about my notion of the “convivial stack”?This work on the #PublicStack seems relevant, although your concept transcends and includes these concerns:https://publicstack.net/
(DIR) Post #AVf08ZJUTzVuk4s52W by adamgreenfield@social.coop
2023-05-14T23:02:10Z
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@strypey quite!
(DIR) Post #AVfTAPgY9Emg8BtAYa by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-05-15T04:27:45Z
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@strypey @neil @dajb @bonfire Yes, sure it would, thank. There've been discussions on similar subjects, or discussing parts thereof. Like on software guilds: https://discuss.coding.social/t/unionize-free-software-found-software-guilds/59And Free Software Development Lifecycle is this all-encompassing concept. FSDL includes Community, but also the role of the Ecosystem where projects operate.And there's chatrooms e.g. https://matrix.to/#/#socialcoding-foundations:matrix.org
(DIR) Post #AViJOdMRgNNSX4VVWS by ailurocrat@scicomm.xyz
2023-05-15T12:35:07Z
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@smallcircles @strypey @neil @dajb @bonfire Love this idea of unionizing free software! Guilds sound like a great idea...
(DIR) Post #AViJOeGoIoSpLssWNU by indieterminacy@social.coop
2023-05-16T08:57:12Z
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@ailurocrat @smallcircles @strypey @neil @dajb @bonfire Im not content until there are social-security funds within coding communities so that people with significant historical contributions to coding are able to seek financial support should they fall into arrears.It exists for certain industries as a consequence of more successful groups giving back and would be a sign that the profession is operating maturely and in a sustainable manner.