Post AVQXfy3nOSzzbENLUW by tetrislife@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by tetrislife@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #9skocqS6s0kyh7FBkO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-07T05:29:45Z
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Other than #Redis and #ShareTribe, does anyone know of any formerly #FreeCode projects that have switched to '#SourceAvailable' licenses, which do not allow commercial use of the software?
(DIR) Post #9sky5qQivoKGbuUyLA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-07T07:15:49Z
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In answer to my own question, there's a list in this blog post:https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/30/lack-of-leadership-in-open-source-results-in-source-available-licenses/... full of nonsense. #OSI are guilty of a "lack of leadership" because they consistently remind the newbies of the obvious; that 'source available' licenses are not new (remember Microsoft's "#SharedSource Initiative"?), and have never been accepted by the community as open source. On the contrary. Defending the #SoftwareFreedoms encoded in the Open Source Definition is exactly the leadership needed.
(DIR) Post #9skyyYH68M5qEK5BGS by clacke@libranet.de
2020-03-07T07:25:47Z
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@strypey I guess the kind of leadership they're looking for is like that of Kyle Mitchell of the License Zero project and its Prosperity Public License, here explaining how SSPL (of MongoDB) is entirely different from the Commons Clause (of RedisLabs) and really just the logical extension of the AGPL:https://writing.kemitchell.com/2019/06/13/SSPL-Not-Commons-Clause.html
(DIR) Post #9sl0IiiB8iWMLRvjhQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-07T07:40:35Z
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@clacke thanks for the link. I hadn't come across the #SSPL until today, so the jury is still out on that one. It certainly seems like a very different case from the Hippocratic License etc. Any links that give context for why the SSPL has been rejected by the community (not just OSI decision-makers) would also be useful. It seems unlikely to me that both the Debian and Fedora projects have blindly followed some shadowy OSI cabal into rejecting projects under SSPL, without good reason.
(DIR) Post #9sl0x5u6KYIRrFl6Ho by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-07T07:48:02Z
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@strypeyI think the cloud problem is real. But I don't see why AGPL wouldn't work.And if some people want a stricter license that restricts Freedom Zero, and think that it'd solve some problems, it's not necessarily a bad idea. As long as they use their own term different than Free Software or Opem Source
(DIR) Post #9sl2Rg98FKvYu4w9cu by clacke@libranet.de
2020-03-07T08:04:44Z
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@strypey I support the AGPL. You can still deploy the code wherever you like and for whom you like, you just need to provide source to people who connect to your service.It is on the border of reasonable restrictions on use, and the FSF recognizes that it is an "additional restriction" that needs to be explicitly as allowable in the GPLv3 for GPL<->AGPL compatibility. But it stays within the derivatives scope of traditional copyleft.I want more source code out there for people to study, improve and share, and I think the AGPL accomplishes that.
(DIR) Post #9slFKXTXNvVzO8PJHU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-07T10:29:00Z
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@clacke > That's your whole VM right there, and even stuff outside itI have some sympathy for the goals of a license that says 'if you want to use our software on your server, you have to release the code source of all the software on your server under any FSF or OSI approved licenses'. But the devil is in the details. Where does software end and sensitive data begin? If you set out to enforce compliance with such a license, how could you know you'd succeeded without full server access?
(DIR) Post #9slFh7xOQbFgu98vBY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-07T10:33:12Z
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@wolf480pl > And if some people want a stricter license that restricts Freedom Zero, and think that it'd solve some problems, it's not necessarily a bad idea.It is a bad idea. The software freedom movement has been rejecting these kind of 'source available, some rights reserved' license for years, for reasons I explained here:https://libranet.de/redir/58448?url=display/0b6b25a8-565e-6358-18c6-a88747518204> As long as they use their own term different than Free Software or Open SourceThey seem determined to get the OSI to approve their licenses
(DIR) Post #9slGm4oNeLUiYFqpwO by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-07T10:45:20Z
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@strypey >It is a bad ideaIt might be. But they're still free to try it out. I'm not gonna stop other people from trying out bad ideas, as long as it doesn't hurt those who didn't agree with those ideas.>They seem determined to get the OSI to approve their licensesThat's what they're doing wrong, and that's what we need to stop.But if strangers come over to your party uninvited, do you tell them "kill yourself" or "go make your own party elsewhere"?
(DIR) Post #9slH7Mp3seMOUcK1GS by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-07T10:49:10Z
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@strypey It is wrong that they're trying to get their licenses approved by OSI.But our answer shouldn't be "your licenses are bad", our answer should be "go make your own definition and own standards committee, and get the hell out of our definitions and our committees"
(DIR) Post #9smOYvMNzMp64eXXpg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-07T23:47:15Z
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@wolf480pl > But if strangers come over to your party uninvited, do you tell them "kill yourself" or "go make your own party elsewhere"?If you live in Australia and strangers are starting fires near your house, do you tell them to go do it in some other part of the neighbourhood, or do you tell them to stop lighting fires, and putting the common good of the whole country at risk?
(DIR) Post #9smPQGhJO3WVbClS4m by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-07T23:56:55Z
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@wolf480pl > But I don't deny other people's right to disagree with us and use proprietary licenses for their own softwareEvery time a piece of software moves from a free license to a proprietary license, a) the commons is diminished, and b) all the contributions made by the community in good faith are privatized. 'Source available' licenses are proprietary licenses, and those who proselytize switching to them are a Trojan Horse threat to the software commons. @bob
(DIR) Post #9smQCXyqQuw76IzDRA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-08T00:05:00Z
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@wolf480pl going 'source available' is worse than going fully secret. In both cases, the last version released as free code can be forked and continued under the free license. But if a project is still developing in the open, under a 'source available' license, the fork is vulnerable to accusations of pirating bits of the 'source available' code (with minor rewrites to cover their tracks). As is any vaguely similar free code project. These are reasons why 'source available' is a bad idea.@bob
(DIR) Post #9smWtzARpLZnb5VfzU by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T01:20:45Z
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@strypey @bob (b) is only possible if the contributors assigned the copyright to some central authority governing the project
(DIR) Post #9smYio5KtInHwrurfk by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T01:41:08Z
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@strypeyregarding (a), lack of gain isn't a loss. The commons are not diminished more than if the developers quit instead of changing the license.Also, you seem to assume that commons do and always will consist solely of Free Software and Open Source Software. That'd mean assuming FSF and OSI made no mistake in their definitions, and that noone ever will come up with a licensing model that works equally well or better.@bob
(DIR) Post #9smZHK0ihOeUoGDOaG by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T01:47:23Z
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@strypeyThere surely is a place (probably away from forrest) where you can start a controlled fire without it spreading, and maybe even figure our how to coom food or smelt iron. Useful stuff, but how could you know if you only stick to things you know work ok-ish?
(DIR) Post #9smb7eEypTcmZ3Ors8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-08T02:08:00Z
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@wolf480pl switching to a 'source available' license ...> is only possible if the contributors assigned the copyright to some central authority governing the projectWhich is a good argument for CLAs limiting license changes to those approved by FSF/ OSI. I believe the #Loomio CLA does that, it definitely came up in the discussion about their relicense from MIT to AGPL.@bob
(DIR) Post #9smbFsxxxodsYGMznU by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T02:09:32Z
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@strypeyI believe signing a CLA is self-harm@bob
(DIR) Post #9smbSv77I43qycriEq by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T02:11:53Z
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@strypey @bobIt's in your best interest not to sign a CLA. If you sign one, and then the project leaders change license to one you don't like, you get what you deserve.
(DIR) Post #9smd9cvCu5y2xfDrzU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-08T02:30:46Z
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@wolf480pl you don't seem to understand why I specified Australia. Do you not know about the unprecedented scale of the forest fires happening there this summer? There is currently no place in Oz where it's safe or sensible to light fires.
(DIR) Post #9smdfC1ESmbOn45oa8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-08T02:36:29Z
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@wolf480pl > you seem to assume that ... FSF and OSI made no mistake in their definitionsActually I don't, but I do know that 'source available' is not ...> a licensing model that works equally well or better.... for reasons I've explained (including in the long post on Friendica).You OTOH are assuming that FSF / OSI folks haven't seriously considered the pros and cons of 'source available' before rejecting it. They have. many times.@bob
(DIR) Post #9sme1KoGSZ2eQRaLUO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-08T02:40:29Z
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@wolf480pl what about when projects assign their copyright to FSF or SFC, so that compliance with the license terms can be more effectively maintained? There are good and bad reasons for CLAs. It's very much a case-by-case thing.@bob
(DIR) Post #9sn2pb1eqC8267LiJk by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T07:18:31Z
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@strypeyThey could've just given them authorization to litigate noncompliance. I've seen a license rrcently on license-review which gives such authorization to each recipient of the work, so that everyone can sue a noncomplyinv party.@bob
(DIR) Post #9sn39h9XlmmutOcbb6 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T07:22:09Z
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@strypeyEvem if someone a fireplace in your house? Or inside a big brick furnace?
(DIR) Post #9sn3ML05RZ3vx6E7hg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-08T07:23:47Z
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@wolf480pl that's cool. IANAL so I don't know how that would fly in court, but I like the concept.@bob
(DIR) Post #9sn3cbnujfr6hXI9JY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-08T07:26:41Z
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@wolf480pl does it have a chimney? Then no. Also, shadowboxing the metaphor doesn't really move the discussion forward much. I think we're done here.
(DIR) Post #9sn3grrwwpwpgVD6G0 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T07:28:09Z
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@strypeyDefine shadowboxing.
(DIR) Post #9sn4aYLkhuuBMZhdy4 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-08T07:38:13Z
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@strypeyI don't think we're done here and I consider the metaphor inaccurate. On the internet, there's always a place far away from everyone else, where you can start a comminity from scratch. I could probably compare it to leaving Australia and going to a desert, but whatever, no metahor can accurately capture what the Internet is.
(DIR) Post #9soNuMJl7dxjUWTlTc by clacke@libranet.de
2020-03-08T22:49:15Z
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@strypey I have sympathy for those goals too. I want more free software!Not so much for MongoDB's intended use of the license, which is not aiming for compliance, but for non-compliance, looking for the sweet sale of license exceptions and getting their hands on the conversion rate @Karlitschek is talking about in https://librelounge.org/episodes/32-companies-money-and-society-with-frank-karlitschek.html .When you're looking for conversion rate, someone installing your software and running it isn't primarily a community member, they're primarily an opportunity cost to your bottom line. Oh man, if only we could have monetized that potential revenue.
(DIR) Post #9soOD9dCVwjjeBXF1U by clacke@libranet.de
2020-03-08T22:52:42Z
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@strypey The question of where code ends and data begins, and whether code can be sensitive data, is an interesting one, and I wish there were a recording of @cwebber 's https://2019.copyleftconf.org/schedule/presentation/2/ available. It was a good talk.
(DIR) Post #9soaVcPvQVuHaTtdy4 by notclacke@pleroma.soykaf.com
2020-03-09T01:10:36.381554Z
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@strypey Also presented at #copyleftconf2019 was the https://github.com/holochain/cryptographic-autonomy-license/blob/master/README.md , which enforces user data autonomy as a licensing condition.I have even more sympathy for its goals and likely rationale, but it was controversial enough, albeit together with allegedly sneaky tactics to get it approved as open source, that Bruce Perens quit OSI over it, saying "We've gone the wrong way with licensing":https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/01/03/osi_cofounder_resigns/
(DIR) Post #9sobAfGLkfRSHlzQsS by notclacke@pleroma.soykaf.com
2020-03-09T01:18:01.393575Z
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@strypey Even Bradley Kuhn of @conservancy had strong words about the CAL, not so much about the scope of copyleft, but more about the drafting process, going into the same concerns I referred to back in https://libranet.de/display/0b6b25a8-135e-6358-eea7-e4d833239270 , that a new category of license should be drafted in a very transparent and deliberative manner:http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2020-January/004616.html> the policy implications of OSI volunteers interactively drafting a very novel copyleft license with a for-profit entity's lawyer and then approving it quickly really concern me@clacke
(DIR) Post #9soqIW1dTibNGXJEGm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T04:07:19Z
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@notclacke The #CAL is another one I haven't look at the details of yet. One concern I have with over-enthusiastic extendion of #copyleft beyond what the #AGPL does (one that Perens and Kuhn might share) is that it could make copyleft licenses even scarier to company lawyers, increasing the fervency of the anti-copyleft PR messaging many companies target at younger developers.@clacke @conservancy
(DIR) Post #9soqd2MAyspfKahasq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T04:11:04Z
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@clacke good point. What all of this points to is, once again, something Stallman pointed out year ago:https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html Using software running on other people's computers, instead of on your own, raises an overlapping but significantly different set of #SoftwareFreedom issues.
(DIR) Post #9sorBp7CClV8OlHaV6 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T04:17:20Z
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@clacke what makes things even more complicated, is that when services are delivered via #Javascript running in a web browser, the software *is* running on your own computer - using your own computing resources - but you still don't have any power to inspect it or modify it. Stallman identified this:https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html... but others have taken the analysis further:https://onpon4.github.io/articles/kill-js.html
(DIR) Post #9sorJQQds7us9T0Ghc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T04:18:33Z
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@alcinnz I'd be very interested in your take on onPon's arguments against client-side scripting in general. @clacke
(DIR) Post #9sovZIFeRTwzExgUuO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T05:06:32Z
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@wolf480pl don't be a dick. It doesn't suit you ;)
(DIR) Post #9sovpqfgEoP0cnklvM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T05:09:31Z
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@wolf480pl Apologies for the metaphor, it seems to have caused you to float away from the actual point of the discussion. If you really want me to continue with this, please re-read the entire thread, and tell me what actual point of disagreement you want to discuss.
(DIR) Post #9sp0XBZWnxCRiSnPbk by alcinnz@floss.social
2020-03-09T06:02:00Z
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@strypey @clacke I quite like the article, fairly similar to my own arguments!In fact earlier today I was going to make a similar comment about efficient software being good for the environment. But the thought didn't fit into that toot and I didn't it important enough for a follow up.It's a little light on how to deprecate JavaScript though.
(DIR) Post #9sp5GJEfYfBgKeoNHM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T06:52:47Z
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@alcinnz > It's a little light on how to deprecate JavaScript though.Follow the link in that article to the one about 'Fantastic Modern Website Design (No JavaScript Required)'.@clacke
(DIR) Post #9sp5yTAlyOwTtS2vKq by openrisk@fosstodon.org
2020-03-09T07:02:59Z
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@strypey @clacke it's an important debate but the arguments seem a bit dated. Some random thoughts about issues that need to be integrated* webassembly* angular/react type frameworks that are 'desktop in a browser' level of complexity* jQuery is used by 98% of websitesIMHO this goes beyond foss and touches the whole design of client-server computing over networks. You could imagine servers being pure data API endpoints and the GUI being handled locally
(DIR) Post #9sp6E0JF3Qul0aPmjY by alcinnz@floss.social
2020-03-09T07:05:47Z
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@strypey I did! Basically boils down to saying CSS (and HTML) is plenty powerful already, and advocates responsive Web Design & Progressive Enhancement.It is especially a bugbear for me when people rely on JavaScript when standard HTML5 elements can achieve the exact some web design. Please learn about <details>!@clacke
(DIR) Post #9spB1cDvHKW0bTq5Ds by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-09T07:59:45Z
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@strypeyO honestly didn't know the word. Though I could've looked it up before asking you what you mean instead of after.
(DIR) Post #9spHSalBQYopbldvHc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T09:11:50Z
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@wolf480pl sorry, my response was more grumpy than necessary. I guess it was an unintended irony that I asked you not to get hung up on the metaphor ... using a metaphor ... which you then got hung up on ;)
(DIR) Post #9spHb0ZXLHfLyoCzbM by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-09T09:13:22Z
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@strypey lol :D
(DIR) Post #9spHvjCF8jYeAgC2CG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T09:16:49Z
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@openrisk > You could imagine servers being pure data API endpoints and the GUI being handled locallyFor sure. I touched on another way to think about it here:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/103791277016958320What it comes down to is that #Javascript is an excellent way for newbie developers to make their code run on other people's computers without having to pass any of the security review it would require to be installed natively. Which is exactly as bad as it sounds ;)@clacke
(DIR) Post #9spI86DVNPIz2hgN9M by alcinnz@floss.social
2020-03-09T07:09:00Z
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@strypey And I do take the stance of seeing how much we can achieve with existing Web standards (other than JavaScript) before extending those standards, and I reckon any such extensions should always be optional.I would love to see a demo showing how much can be achieved with iframes!@clacke
(DIR) Post #9spI878DyWfvscDfYe by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T09:19:07Z
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@alcinnz the author of the 'Fantastic Modern Website Design (No JavaScript Required)' page told me today that those pages are not maintained. I'd love to see a whole website expanding on the points it makes, with detailed HowTo demos.@clacke
(DIR) Post #9spWPfL1RruOFaT95k by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-09T11:59:23Z
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@clacke @strypey >Someone running a modified AGPL service that is consumed only by their services, and those services in turn are proprietary and user-facing.Do you even need permission from the copyright holder to do that?
(DIR) Post #9spWsVRZJZXjxfHcX2 by clacke@libranet.de
2020-03-09T12:03:18Z
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@wolf480pl @strypey I don't think we know if the restriction on use can be stretched to cover that. In fact I'm not even sure we're sure the SSPL can do what it says it does.
(DIR) Post #9sqRjEAZrfR7AT3HX6 by christianbundy@social.coop
2020-03-09T16:10:33Z
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@alcinnz @strypey @clacke I've been developing an SSB front-end without any browser JavaScript and it's mostly great but sometimes really tricky.One recurring pain point is that <textarea> doesn't give you a way to do @mentions or add buttons for bold/italics/etc. (We use Markdown but lots of people don't know it.)
(DIR) Post #9sqRjET0l8BK5dg0GW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-09T22:41:26Z
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@christianbundy > I've been developing an #SSB front-end without any browser #javascript Fantastic! Link please!@alcinnz @clacke
(DIR) Post #9sqcyFG7CCSkNz0PPU by clacke@libranet.de
2020-03-10T00:47:26Z
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@strypey @alcinnz @christianbundy I think whatever that thing was named based on patchbay that I used also didn't use JS.
(DIR) Post #9sqdKcOvpme8WynXDU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T00:51:25Z
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@clacke > They thought the #SSPL would, but the cloud vendors just dropped MongoDB instead.This is the bottom line. 'Source available' licenses cannot work as intended, because downstream users won't use software licensed under them. They'll either fork the project from the last free version, or swap the component out for one that's still free code. To a lesser degree, the same applies to switching to #AGPL.@wolf480pl
(DIR) Post #9sqdiitPLmjVc8Xy8e by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T00:55:49Z
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Basically, once you license a mature server-side codebase under a non-copyleft license, you've screwed yourself. OTOH If AGPL (or something like it) became the standard license for server-side components from Day 1 of publishing source code, downstream users would have to adapt.@clacke @wolf480pl
(DIR) Post #9sqepF9aPxlHMSms7s by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T01:08:20Z
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@wolf480pl > I think the cloud problem is real.Sure, but it's not a problem that can be fully solved by a change of copyright licenses, as #BrucePerens pointed out in his piece about the #HippocraticLicense:https://perens.com/2019/09/23/sorry-ms-ehmke-the-hippocratic-license-cant-work/Ending corporate domination of hosting requires new approaches to both technical architecture and financing. Faffing about with vanity licenses is finger-in-the-dyke stuff.
(DIR) Post #9sqgV0HUChSNLqxW40 by christianbundy@social.coop
2020-03-10T01:13:58Z
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@clacke @alcinnz @strypey ➡ https://github.com/fraction/oasisWe're about to do a big release with lots of improvements, if you want to try it out you can try my personal branch with: npx christianbundy/oasisIf you're new to the network, you can go to the settings and use this invite code: oasis-demo.fraction.io:8008:@samhAxb0x+iykkzoUCsuEBQfFUuYQrVFyNBuMpibidc=.ed25519~0E7dFYEcTEpKuCQm1kEtujAgKie1Qj9SoOqnpYss1cc=
(DIR) Post #9sqgV0jqVG8qloEAGe by grainloom@cybre.space
2020-03-10T01:24:24Z
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@christianbundy @clacke @alcinnz @strypey hhhHHHHH I need to package this for Guix :blobowo:
(DIR) Post #9sqgaKJh8hIswGWwK0 by clacke@libranet.de
2020-03-10T01:27:30Z
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@grainloom @alcinnz @christianbundy @strypey The packaging gods are praying for your safe journey through npm land.
(DIR) Post #9sqidcIUwZdPTwfQ8m by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T01:50:53Z
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@christianbundy I do have #npm on my travel laptop, installed at #Coopathon in #HongKong, but I keep meaning to expunge it. The dependence on npm stuff is the main reason I haven't tried #Scuttlebutt yet. Especially given it was a package created by Dominic (SSB creator) that was at the centre of the Great npm Crypto Robbery ;)@clacke @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #9sqj8YnK17vtaxq7TE by christianbundy@social.coop
2020-03-10T01:56:30Z
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@strypey @clacke @alcinnz Here's a zip with binaries for Windows, macOS, and Linux, if that's better:https://send.firefox.com/download/e6140f7569f310c8/#mB4R2kHLzP9CJ0Z2sXQZWAWarning: it doesn't come with npm, but I *did* use npm to download the dependencies. I've been very tempted to use git-npm but also super hesitant to make this any more experimental than it needs to be. 😅
(DIR) Post #9sqjiJYQ9qJekkv1Xc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T02:02:59Z
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@christianbundy > but I *did* use npm to download the dependencies.Thanks for the warning ;) Frankly, I think I'll keep waiting for an implementation of SSB that doesn't use JS at all. Until that's done, I tend to see Scuttlebutt as a promising toy, not something I want to depend on. I live in hope something like that will be developed for touchscreen GNU/Linux (for #PinePhone etc).@clacke @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #9sqoOCz7N9ugMEdcvo by christianbundy@social.coop
2020-03-10T02:55:20Z
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@strypey @clacke @alcinnz I understand, thanks for the thoughtful feedback!Aside: would you be interested in a hosted version of Oasis, like a single-user Mastodon instance where you're the admin? Just HTTPS, HTML, and CSS, with no JS on your computer?I've built up an immunity against JavaScript and so I don't mind running it on a server somewhere, but I don't know whether that's something anyone would find useful.
(DIR) Post #9ssV1SqohtPu5m7Hjk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T22:27:37Z
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@christianbundy > would you be interested in a hosted version of #OasisDefinitely! That reminds me of the project to bridge SSB and AP networks. Do you think having a hosted SSB client could make that easier to achieve?https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-db/issues/202@clacke @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #9ssVijGPYnUHRoiazA by christianbundy@social.coop
2020-03-10T22:35:35Z
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@strypey @clacke @alcinnz I'm not sure, but maybe? Having a client like Oasis that speaks HTTP seems like a reasonable first step, but I'm still investigating how much work it would take to add ActivityPubs support.I'm also confused at how federation would work -- each SSB node has lots of the same data as other nodes, so would you have one user on each ActivityPub instance? Seems like the duplicate toots would be annoying. 😬
(DIR) Post #9ssXABxP5RDIDBUEyW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T22:51:40Z
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@christianbundy yeah, the AP and SSB networks work very differently, so there's a number of questions to be answered about how they could interact without corroding the #UX of either. I reckon that GH issue is a good place to have those discussions for now, so any insights are available to all SSB and AP developers. But it could also be good to have a thread about SSB bridging on:https://socialhub.ActivityPub.rocks@clacke @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #9ssXIyUWWOwR3RAN7o by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2020-03-10T22:53:31.716828Z
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@strypey @christianbundy @clacke @alcinnz i'm of the opinion that this bridging should happen on the client side, not on the server side. its much simpler to have the client interact with multiple systems that to figure out how to fully join heterogeneous networks.
(DIR) Post #9ssaHtXRkaa9GZi5vE by bhaugen@social.coop
2020-03-10T23:17:39Z
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@xj9 @alcinnz @clacke @strypey @christianbundy I want a client that I can use to interact with all of the networks I belong to as a first step, anyway. Doesn't need to actually bridge the networks at first, just give me a place to stand and see and interact with the separate feeds.They don't need to be mixed at first.Maybe more later.
(DIR) Post #9ssaHtxgB3Z8Zvz2oK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-10T23:26:41Z
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@bhaugen so coming back around to the original discussion, how could Oasis be adapted to be an AP client as well as an SSB client? Especially given the current situation that no AP project (AFAIK) has implemented the server<>client part of the AP spec?@xj9 @alcinnz @clacke @christianbundy
(DIR) Post #9ssdQTBFPz2hzG6iDw by bhaugen@social.coop
2020-03-11T00:01:57Z
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@strypey I need to try Oasis. But I think @yaaps has studied the AP C2S spec and may have an opinion on that front.@xj9 @alcinnz @clacke @christianbundy
(DIR) Post #9ssfLxIqCCovs2dNY0 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2020-03-11T00:23:44.292077Z
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@strypey @bhaugen @alcinnz @clacke @christianbundy mastodon api would work fine
(DIR) Post #9suo3aTtayshmW2biK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-12T01:10:25Z
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@xj9 for making it compatible with Mastodon or Pleroma. What about all the other AP apps? If Mastodon roll-your-own is going to become the standard server<>client API, it needs to go through the W3C standards process, and have a proper spec written.@alcinnz @clacke @bhaugen @christianbundy
(DIR) Post #9suretdrcQJNmiBYv2 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2020-03-12T01:51:02.008178Z
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@strypey @alcinnz @clacke @bhaugen @christianbundy once you're supporting multiple protocols, it should be easy to add more. everyone rolls their own thing anyway so you'd have to solve it that way regardless. if people start using standard AP C2S at some point you can just add it to the list.
(DIR) Post #9yJzdUW0iN8MZqsj2W by xameer@ioc.exchange
2020-08-20T18:08:26Z
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@strypey @christianbundy @clacke @alcinnz try xmpp room via tor xmpp:faq@conference.xmpp-hosting.de?joinPing xameer@xmpp.is for anything
(DIR) Post #AVQXfw5UjBAZTv9frU by tetrislife@qoto.org
2022-09-16T04:19:42Z
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@clacke @strypey if I may dredge up an old thread, do you have any updated views on #Holochain 's #CAL ?The licence itself seems to be an amalgam of an improvement over AGPL w.r.t data and LGPL-like permissions for parts of the subject of the #Licence . Mostly good, the only gripe might be that it will take lawyers to confirm if it is trouble-free for open projects to use it or Holochain and the like. But that seems "just" 1 "autonomy audit" away.
(DIR) Post #AVQXfx8Mpz3sj7VTyi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-05-07T23:37:39Z
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@tetrislife> do you have any updated views on Holochain 's CAL ?The jury is still out on this one. I suspect Perens' reaction to it was coloured by the proliferation of Shared Source and morality licences around the same time. Like the Vaccine License, which obviously violates both the Free Software and Open Source definitions. A disturbingly authoritarian license like this should have been laughed out of the OSI, but apparently they seriously reviewed it:https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/03/osi_cofounder_resigns/@clacke
(DIR) Post #AVQXfy3nOSzzbENLUW by tetrislife@qoto.org
2022-09-16T04:27:30Z
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@clacke @strypey in hindsight, the drama over the drafting process of the #Holochain #CAL seems to be fear of it being more effective in promoting #FLOSS than #FSF or #OSI #Licence s. You did voice concerns about FUD, but wouldn't you say that FUD against GPL failed (people serious about software were not all sheeple)? And I bet the people behind that FUD themselves free-loaded off GPL'ed software (and stayed silent on the more effective AGPL - probably stayed silent on the CAL too?).