Post AVCCYmtbga4RhEuDx2 by floatybirb@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by floatybirb@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AVB2wtomPKoHPoXxSK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-04-30T10:48:27Z
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A lot of people don't know the difference between capitalism and ... having markets and shopping and little coops and companies in non-super-essential economic sectors that operate independently. Markets existed before capitalism and will exist after.
(DIR) Post #AVB2wuKgUiKZ0lTRBY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-04-30T12:10:46Z
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Of course in the US there are people who think that ... the postal service is communism. Or that any government service is communism. And of course communism is the worst most evil thing in the universe. To be honest I don't really know what I think about communism I've grown up soaking in absurd definitions and extreme positions. So communism is the postal service and communism is evil... this leads us to the absurd conclusion that mail carriers are the servants of Satan.
(DIR) Post #AVB2wureW8haf0tlZY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T12:12:40Z
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@futurebird i do t think ive ever heard of the post office, or most govt services, explained as communism. Welfare for sure, and communism isnt a good descriptor.
(DIR) Post #AVB3VeQ9e6ZjnUbDlI by supernovae@universeodon.com
2023-04-30T12:18:57Z
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@freemo @futurebird the problem is we debate the frames like that changes anything.Whether you call it welfare, communism or socialism, people have for some absurd reason decided that the post office - something that defined America's expansion to the west, expansion to aviation and connecting of peoples across the great nation in a way that everyone has access to.. is bad.
(DIR) Post #AVB3rv8WB82A0hy8VE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T12:23:01Z
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@supernovae @futurebird Most americand when thry use the post office expiernce tons ofndelays, lost packages, and poor customer service. Its deemed bad largely because it lacks the market pressures where other delivery services would have to improve their services.In short it is simply an example of how important free market is in producing services people want to use.
(DIR) Post #AVB41a4JMZaHZ7bjbk by supernovae@universeodon.com
2023-04-30T12:24:46Z
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@freemo @futurebird Fedex and UPS lose just as much if not more.Also, it doesn't help when we put people in charge of systems rely on who see it as their duty to destroy them.The problems you speak of are absolutely of our own making and completely ignore the prior history of greatness that the post office enjoyed once conservatism took over and decided public services were bad.
(DIR) Post #AVB4MVpeJF6YVWjLxg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-04-30T12:28:33Z
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@supernovae @futurebird Do you have a source for that, because i never found one and my expiernce suggests thats flat wrong.The post office like any public service works fine when there arent good private options, as its filling a need thst isnt otherwise anprofitable venture, but needed... that is no longer the case however.
(DIR) Post #AVB53mSMNNfQWFT8ee by supernovae@universeodon.com
2023-04-30T12:36:23Z
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@freemo @futurebird The post office was critical in the expansion to the west. Building Roads, demand for railroad, Pioneering the aviation industry, Pioneering the door-to-door retail/mail order/catalog and internet order industries amongst many other things(even banking!)It wasn't until 1982 that it was defunded as a from federatl tax coffers and you know what happened af that, we came up with 'going postal')Here's a start.. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/brief-history-united-states-postal-service-180975627/
(DIR) Post #AVBdDeYrytn3N2OQvA by MichaelRoth@mastodon.social
2023-04-30T18:59:01Z
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@freemo @supernovae @futurebird The post office works fine if the employees are not endangered by loosing their apartment (breakneck Capitalism)It's not the public ownership which is the problem, it's the Capitalist environment the people have to struggle inCapitalism doesn't work
(DIR) Post #AVBue46zJ5OdMaX1Rw by dschwarz@toad.social
2023-04-30T22:14:21Z
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@freemo @supernovae @futurebird USPS does a good job overall. “Lack market pressures?” Not in the package delivery market.
(DIR) Post #AVC8g2eH7H2SlMwDo0 by CRSG@mastodon.social
2023-05-01T00:51:35Z
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@freemo @supernovae @futurebird Your experience may very well be a result of your own bias. Mine is different. You also don't appear to have any idea of the difference in scale and scope of USPS and FedEx/UPS. For instance, FedEx/UPS/Amazon COMBINED deliver 16 billion packages per year; USPS delivers 127 billion.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYeU8xMwtbwvm9Q by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-04-30T12:14:26Z
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Capitalism is similarly muddled. For the longest time I though capitalism was "when you go shopping at a store" --and so the people who hated capitalism were confusing to me. What's wrong with going to Hot Topic and getting a cute black velvet choker? You know you are dealing with a deep and pernicious ideological divide when any conversation has to start with new definitions for all the fundamental words in the discussion.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYfFI84f9yAzQdk by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-04-30T12:17:40Z
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Despite the best efforts of American culture I managed to learn what capitalism was, both in theory and in practice--In capitalism individuals can own, buy, sell and rent capital. But what is capital? Is my laptop capital? I use it to make money. Everyone will agree a big factory is capital. But what about intellectual property, like a logo, or ecological diversity in a region? What about indigenous cultural art, music and knowledge?There are issues of scale and scope. They aren't trivial.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYfwXXHG28JDy3E by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-04-30T14:10:19Z
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Owning something, and having that ownership respected is a form of power. This could mean owning a media franchise, software, a segment of the airwaves, a slur, land, the artistic output of another person, a laptop, a factory.I'm trying to suggest that some of this is a lot more arbitrary than we realize.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYgYTGFbC1wyGAq by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-04-30T17:17:55Z
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@futurebird The flip side of this is that people attribute harms to capitalism that are actually harms caused by scarcity and competition, two things that existed before capitalism and would continue to exist after it.Capitalism, for example, is not why your boss is screwing you over.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYh7DB5O7lhE0K8 by floatybirb@mastodon.social
2023-04-30T17:46:29Z
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@TruthSandwich @futurebird I still think it would be reasonable to say that "capitalism" is why your boss is screwing you over, but that's not to say that you wouldn't be equally screwed over under some alternate systems.I would usually describe capitalism as "businesses are privately owned and operated for profit via a system of wage labor" then "needing more profit" and "having wage laborers" kind of encapsulates how you boss gets to screw you over.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYi1DoqBuZPQjcu by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-04-30T17:47:48Z
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@floatybirb @futurebird In another system, it would be your feudal lord, or your owner.Neither of these pre-capitalist systems (feudal serfdom and classical slavery) were known for their good treatment of workers.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYiZxjfyqJ9gTmC by floatybirb@mastodon.social
2023-04-30T17:50:51Z
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@TruthSandwich @futurebird Yes, and I heartily agree with both of those points, but I also think it's not unfair to say that the incentive structure of capitalism is a big reason why bosses often mistreat workers.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYjFnE9ROOtFsye by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-04-30T17:52:01Z
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@floatybirb @futurebird I wouldn't agree with that, precisely because we can see even more mistreatment under pre-capitalist and non-capitalist systems.Well-regulated capitalism is the least bad of all systems.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYjvGjwcMTWf0cq by floatybirb@mastodon.social
2023-04-30T17:58:53Z
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@TruthSandwich @futurebird You don't agree that the incentive structure of capitalism incentivizes mistreatment of workers because you think one particular type of capitalism is better than some other systems?I mean, social democracy beats feudalism for sure, but I don't think that framing is very sound. That other systems have had more types of exploitation does not imply that capitalism doesn't encourage its own flavours of exploitation.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYkVQZVXcHfZszA by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-04-30T18:00:49Z
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@floatybirb @futurebird I don't agree that capitalism is particularly associated with mistreatment of workers.Remember, in the good old days, they could have you beaten or killed. These days, being fired is about as bad as it gets.I never claimed capitalism was free of exploitation; in fact, I said otherwise.What I am pointing out is that it's not uniquely bad or even generally worse. If anything, regulated capitalism is uniquely good.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYlBc2fHkOVJZjs by floatybirb@mastodon.social
2023-04-30T18:18:26Z
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@TruthSandwich @futurebird I think we're digging into an argument based on really subtle distinctions.I think you're trying to argue that one particular form of capitalism is the best thing that's been tried, while I am trying to argue that capitalism inherently incentivizes exploitation; both of those things can be true at the same time. The "well-regulated" part of well regulated capitalism is mostly stuff intended to mitgate the bad incentives baked into capitalism.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYludLHIWe8NWue by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-04-30T19:11:37Z
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@floatybirb @TruthSandwich Exactly. The best documented that we know of isn't equivalent to "better than any alternative."And to the extent that it is functional, it's more by convention, accident, through protest and conflict. The abstract system has a vector towards wealth and power accumulation, wealth and power that can remodel political landscapes to self-perpetuate (and that can erase history and even words that describe anything different)
(DIR) Post #AVCCYmXyyym0cAmxFI by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-04-30T19:13:04Z
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@futurebird @floatybirb No, the abstract system of capitalism vectors towards the efficient creation of wealth.This is actually good. The bad part is that it tends towards overconcentration of that wealth.As a result, capitalism is relatively easy to regulate: you need to distribute the wealth through taxation.It works.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYmtbga4RhEuDx2 by floatybirb@mastodon.social
2023-04-30T18:21:26Z
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@TruthSandwich @futurebird I also think futurebirb's OP thread was mostly trying to break down the components of capitalism that are usually lumped together into smaller pieces that can be analyzed independently, which seems like a laudable task.If there is a way to replace the most exploitative parts of capitalism and keep its productive elements intact, I think doing that would be a good idea, but it would take a lot of experimentation to figure out a way to do that.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYnDSUlwygoC4tU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-04-30T19:15:35Z
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@TruthSandwich @floatybirb Creation... or concentration?Research, science and invention create wealth, along side labor. I don't see how owning capital creates wealth at all.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYnvlq1OauEvSxk by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-04-30T20:50:34Z
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@futurebird @floatybirb Both. And your statement is precisely wrong: it is only through capital that these inputs become wealth.Yes, a factory requires labor, but labor requires that factory. And you need a system that makes it possible to finance the creation of these factories even though they won't create wealth until they're up and running.Capitalism rewards creation through concentration. For example, workers get paid a part of the value they help create. That's fair, no?
(DIR) Post #AVCCYoZTSP9etNVAqe by scrottie@anarchism.space
2023-05-01T01:33:27Z
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@TruthSandwich @futurebird @floatybirb That sounds good, but in practise, capitalists don't fund something unless they think they can "corner the market" or variations of that. Large players who can't dispose of each other instead collude. Duopolies abound. Almost no one builds factories; they buy competition, flood the market and put competitors under, then layoff and cut supply.
(DIR) Post #AVCCYpEazW32wuk0wa by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-05-01T01:34:25Z
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@scrottie @futurebird @floatybirb These are excellent arguments for regulation. They are not arguments for (checks notes) throwing out the only thing that works at all and replacing it with something that has literally never worked and has instead caused ruin.
(DIR) Post #AVFJ8dRzSn3Q1gLRmS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-05-02T13:32:54Z
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@MichaelRoth @supernovae @futurebird Yea no, the actual "capitalist" companies do t ever loose my packages, odd that.
(DIR) Post #AVFKd6GsyLcU3QF1ua by supernovae@universeodon.com
2023-05-02T13:49:41Z
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@freemo @MichaelRoth Last year, Fedex Lost a Takahashi telescope. Such a shame, it was $6,000 dollar astrophotography telescope that probably ended up on some Facebook Marketplace being sold at junk prices.This was after I switched from UPS, which lost a Paramoun MX+ Mount, computer and pier accessories.Both of these were purchased for an astronomy club.We thought it wouldn't happen again, but alas, Fedex also lost a 3,000 dollar scope (esprit).USPS has delayed things - and sometimes awfully long.But i've never had things just vanish with such frequency.thankfully we insured the purchased but there are so few of these scopes and mounts available and the timelines are so long for procurement we never finished some of those projects. Thx capitalism ;)
(DIR) Post #AVFKtq2wY7EEelhYI4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-05-02T13:52:41Z
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@supernovae @MichaelRoth I very much had the exact opposite expierence.
(DIR) Post #AcVNFuAIqSAUgBuzmy by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-05-01T00:40:45Z
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@joesabin @futurebird @SoftwareTheron @floatybirb There are plenty of Americans who don't want to vote R but will not vote D if it means endorsing socialism.But don't take my word for it: Obama said this in about as many words.https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/obama-suggests-slogans-defund-police-are-counterproductive-n1249717
(DIR) Post #AcVNFvDsuccxxabN0i by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-05-01T00:42:59Z
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@TruthSandwich @joesabin @SoftwareTheron @floatybirb Are you concerned those people people are reading my posts?
(DIR) Post #AcVNFw8bVjzunV8fQ0 by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-05-01T00:45:42Z
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@futurebird @joesabin @SoftwareTheron @floatybirb No. I'm concerned that they're listening to AOL brag about how she's made the DNC socialist.
(DIR) Post #AcVNKkmz8HMh32K7jU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-05-01T00:52:33Z
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@TruthSandwich I'm not talking about who you should vote for. I assume you can tell that one party is less destructive than the other. I'm glad there are people invested in the advertising, branding and marketing required for political campaigns. (I'll even help out if something material is at stake.)But I think the whole process and the framing is an insult to the true spirt of the democratic process. It's all about "messaging" -- so we end up as little brand ambassadors for Democrats.
(DIR) Post #AcVNKlac9l41WxXl5c by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-05-01T01:05:44Z
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@futurebird The democratic process requires silencing those who would, if given a chance, end democracy.We have no room to tolerate populists.