Post AUUXJlKVdwXdcxRToO by ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social
(DIR) More posts by ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social
(DIR) Post #AUUFlq2Dwei99Z7xGS by boytits@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T19:46:12Z
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1. Abuse is a learned behavior, but it isn't learned by *being* abused. Its learned by being raised with a sense of entitlement to power and control over others and learning which "others" it is socially acceptable to subjugate.2. Being a survivor of abuse doesn't automatically make you an expert on abuse. You are the expert on your *own* experience. That's different. There is actually a fuckton of theory and research on abuse. It's an entire field of study and y'all should read about it before you talk out your asses š3. Abuse is not garden variety harm or a mistake. Abuse is about a cyclical pattern of harmful behavior *with the intent of gaining power and control over another person*.4. Stating or implying that survivors of abuse are more likely to become abusers than any other demographic is both false and disgusting5. Transformative Justice is trash and I will die on that hill. We know that abusers have a 95% recidivism rate even with therapy and rehabilitation. Focusing equal or greater energy on the rehabilitation of the abuser is abuse apologism. Full stop.6. Our abolitionism will be survivor centered or it will be bullshit7. A lot of y'all are like "by any means necessary**"**except rapists and abusers
(DIR) Post #AUUFlqilOUjrHV1vZQ by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T20:43:48.807623Z
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@boytits JSYK Iām frustrated with the amount of boilerplate in what Iām about to say tooā¦What does dying on that hill mean in this context? I donāt agree with some of this point of view, is there room for discussion or is it wholly, morally foreclosed? If so, disregard all of this, thereās no point - someone was wrong on the internet today and to you it was me, and to me it was you and nobody died of it.Iām hesitant but compelled to question some of whatās written on point 5 and 6, it seems to carry the kind of underlying authoritative implication of I am Right and You are Wrong and if You are Wrong then I am Good and You are Bad, regardless of anything else. Everything else youāre saying seems totally un-objectionable - but I feel Iām taking a risk of by stating that I have reasons for disagreeing and inviting a conversation in genuine good faith, and I wanted to state my concerns about what Iām tensing up to anticipate before opening my mouth. I might just be misreading tone and making a mountain - if so please forgive my traumatized bullshit. Please donāt apologist-jacket me for disagreeing. Iāve heard thatās become a trend lately and I donāt know you. Iām just trying to talk.Not to likeā¦ idk like āwomansplainā this, here - but Transformative Justice is not about rehabilitation. Itās about critically dismantling the structures that encourage entitlement to power, and that is very much not made clear here, and it seems like this misunderstanding of TJ is weirdly, disorientingly widespread. Idk if there was a recent psyop abt it or what.Just for clarity, what are you talking about abolishing? Is it prison, the carceral state? Something else?
(DIR) Post #AUUHdzG1yHSnLfyA2C by trans_caracal@worm.pink
2023-04-09T20:58:16.750725Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits Isn't that basic anarchism really? Of course everyone would agree with "we have to dismantle structures that encourage people to assume power".
(DIR) Post #AUUHdzwvOnm5Ui2PtQ by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T21:04:49.600554Z
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@trans_caracal @boytits It is absolutely anarchy. I think itās hard to argue that Transformative Justice is intrinsically anarchist.
(DIR) Post #AUUHfyEWkaLSkdDCGe by FinalOverdrive@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T20:49:26Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits I've recently come to realize that understanding of transformative justice: it's about dismantling (transforming) the structures and practices that encourage entitlement to power. For a long time I was assuming transformative justice was focused on trying to change the perpetrator (and it may be part of that, but if what kittens is saying is true that isn't central). TJ also gets confused with restorative justice, which is more about restitution and repair. That being said, there is a very strong tendency b0ytits is describing that coddles abusers and assumes they are just people who don't know how else to relate to people or whatever, or even dismisses research into abusers as being flawed to justify incarceration.
(DIR) Post #AUUIt7Eyfm0APCFqIi by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T21:18:46.842023Z
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@trans_caracal @boytits Iāve got more than a little to say about this subject in these posts, for context - I hope these are worth reading. NonviolenceA Plea for Nuance
(DIR) Post #AUUKffgc0WdL5htgwq by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T21:38:44.503633Z
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@FinalOverdrive @boytits Weāve all seen misguided pseudo-communities come running to the side of someone who has reproduced patterns of harm, and leave those harmed in the dust. Itās appalling in its un-holistic-ness. Itās often a measure of the social capital of the one in the position of power - the one engaging in patterns of harmful behavior. Coming to their side can entail pantomiming reforming them, defending them, insulating them, inserting all kinds of narrative sleight-of-hand, or even ineffectively punishing or exiling them all while those affected sit still wounded, and they sit reinforced in their habits.Thatās why it seems imperative to train ourselves in robust approaches to not only hold those who are invested in and accustomed to harmful behaviors effectively accountable, but to focus heavily on creating a context that doesnāt breed the behavior to begin with. And thatās to say nothing of the very crucial project of simultaneously and multiply caring for and holding space and medicine for any and all whoāve been and will be harmed.
(DIR) Post #AUUNkeZFtTSovqWVvM by boytits@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T21:50:50Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat Hi, so for context, this post is a repost of an old Twitter thread (maybe I'll add that to the top, for clarity) and that's why the tone is a bit aggro. I wrote this during some heavy anti-survivor autonomy backlash over on Twitter during one of the multiple rounds of discourse about the slogan "kill your local rapist".I've definitely had folks make the objection that my experiences with Transformative Justice (and by extention the position from which I'm speaking on it) are not true to what it's intended to be.And while that's a fair point, I'm certainly not the only person who feels this way or has had experiences wherein alleged proponents of TJ have weilded it to do apologism, run cover for abusers, launder their reputations and facilitate abusers remaining in community by proclaiming them "accountable" despite no amends being made or behavior changing.I'm fully willing to believe that all of my experiences like this have been with folks who are insufficiently educated on TJ and how it is supposed to be practiced. But it's been consistent enough that I'm highly skeptical of anyone who claims to be a proponent and usually brace myself for abuse apologism, until someone has been emphatic that they are pro-survivor autonomy and survivor centered responses to abuse and sexual violence.I guess what I'm trying to say is that if my experience with TJ proponents has largely been a misrepresentation of what it is supposed to be about then maybe the misrepresenters are overtaking the folks who actually know what they're talking about in terms of like visibility or public perception of TJ.But also idk how to articulate the folks claiming to be proponents of TJ, but ultimately misrepresenting it as a separate group from people who actually understand and practice TJ accurately, because the folks who are getting it wrong definitely use the term Transformative Justice to describe their ideology & practice.Oh and yes, this was originally written in response to folks claiming that you cannot be both a prison abolitionist and pro using violence against rapists & abusers.
(DIR) Post #AUUNkfCbXAwItsvwG0 by julieofthespirits@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T21:56:39Z
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@boytits @kittenlikeasmallcat I think that "the principles of transformative justice in theory are pretty good but in practice any transformative justice accountability process is probably a dumpster fire" is pretty fairI do think that there was some point at which what it was supposed to be and what it ended up being involved a series of major misunderstandings of the theory, but you also have to judge it by how it actually plays out in real life
(DIR) Post #AUUNkfzAcbmtKVeixM by FinalOverdrive@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T22:02:44Z
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@julieofthespirits @boytits @kittenlikeasmallcat It's part of why I think that, without punitive justice as a last resort, any alternative to it becomes impotent. You need a stick to complement the carrots.
(DIR) Post #AUUNkgZKSAi98eZbJg by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T22:13:15.594169Z
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@FinalOverdrive @julieofthespirits @boytits Iām not sure that punitive justice is anything but an oxymoron. I think that punitive measures being carried out shouldnāt be under the pretense of justice, but instead as a means of caring for the harmed.Say for example a population is subjugated for generations, and calls for this to stop, and for all those who have done this to them to be forcibly stripped of their power, and killed. I donāt think this is justice, but instead a pure cessation of harm - desirable on its own merits.I think justice has more to do with the conditions that led for that subjugation to be even possible but thatās me.
(DIR) Post #AUUQDHplhCQCjO1oxM by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T22:40:49.437250Z
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@boytits Thanks for talking about this with me, I was terrified this post was going to incite something awful.It seems to me that itās less that āitās not what itās intended to be,ā and more that the souls who purport to be āpracticing itā urgently need to learn how TJ works, and those seeing them āpracticing itā need the same. We can see narratives like this play out in many ideologies and frameworks. Someone does something under the auspice of a movement, without a trace of radical understanding, and that movement seems to grow to encompass that misguided something. We can take certain subgenres of anarchism and feminism as ready if not messy examples of this. Anyone arguing that Anarcho-capitalism is more a type of anarchism than capitalism is just barking up the wrong tree. Anyone arguing that TERF feminism has more to do with liberatory feminism than with conserving power for the powerful is making the same mistake. With this in mind we can see how absolutely essential it is to not simply use referent names when talking about the concrete, systematic, clearly laid-out, and diverse approaches to liberation outlined in these movements. When we talk about TJ as itās mispracticed, and condemn the whole approach we disarm ourselves gravely, apparently just for the sake of defending āconsistentā language.To be sure, all three of these examples, bullshit-TJ, TERF, and ancap need to be understood as reactionary currents that expose the currents āwithinā these movements that are driven by those with systemic power enacting this power while sitting entrenched in the historical frameworks of that system. We expose faults in the practice of those systems without doing the bathwater thing. Feminism in particular has a robust body of work, as we know, that critiques TERFism without sinking to simply call it not-real-feminism, and therefore sidesteps the pitfall that is no-true-scotsman-ing the very real racist, bioessentialist, (et al) historical leanings of many of those feminists who have indeed co-built the tradition. These examples are obviously not be one-for one, but I hope theyāre at least somewhat illustrative of my position.
(DIR) Post #AUUQfrbAJldFlEpBD6 by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T22:45:58.947400Z
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@julieofthespirits @boytits Not to nitpick, I hope this comes across rightā¦ Would one not be better served by judging instances of these arcane rituals called TJ as instances of what they specifically are and reserve critique of the approach of TJ for the practice of TJ when enacted as itās described? Mabye thatās jumbled. I think what Iām trying to say is that judging those dumpster fires simply labelled āTJā as dumpster fires is imperative, but judging transformative justice itself based on those dumpster fires is only useful when those dumpster fires are actually consistent with the approach as itās described.
(DIR) Post #AUURFoq83H2Bd7y6Uq by FinalOverdrive@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T22:16:39Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits @julieofthespirits And I think it IS a significant component of justice whether we like it or not. To call all that as having nothing to do with justice being done is to rob those acts of liberation of their justification and value. Justice at least in part is about retribution, even if only as a last resort. Otherwise all you're doing is therapy.And maybe therapy is superior to justice.But don't call it justice when it's really therapy.
(DIR) Post #AUURFpQzqCWbTTDXxg by FinalOverdrive@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T22:19:16Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits @julieofthespirits And if it is part of justice, and it makes one uncomfortable, maybe justice is then a "problematic" idea if retribution is an unavoidable component of justice. Just say you want a world without retribution, fine. But then you have to remove the very bedrock of justice itself. And justice is, at base, a swift and terrible sword.
(DIR) Post #AUURFq0nh5AHGVy8lk by boytits@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T22:28:05Z
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@FinalOverdrive @kittenlikeasmallcat @julieofthespirits I think we're maybe all operating with slightly different definitions and frameworks. But are roughly in agreement in terms of what tools or options are on the table in response to abuse and sexual violence
(DIR) Post #AUURFqVdqPpooAOlqC by FinalOverdrive@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T22:37:53Z
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@boytits @kittenlikeasmallcat @julieofthespirits That's kind of what I am trying to convey here, in part. And of course, not every recurrent pattern necessarily means there is abuse. And not every wrong, thankfully most wrongs, are on the level of abuse and sexual violence. For 9 things out of 10, transformative and restorative (which we must understand as distinct approaches to justice) are the way to go. Maybe even the odd case of abuse and sexual violence, if the perpetrator is in that small percentage of perpetrators who want to change, such approaches can be effective. But these are the rare cases where they genuinely didn't know any better, and these cases are incredibly rare.
(DIR) Post #AUURFrG53kyv8C7rE0 by FinalOverdrive@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T22:40:44Z
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@boytits @kittenlikeasmallcat @julieofthespirits What we all agree is that incarceration, torture, and the death penalty is off the table. They are cruel, inhumane, and far too prone to abuse. But it doesn't mean punitive approaches are off the table in my book.
(DIR) Post #AUURFruUdVJ99X28DQ by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T22:52:30.151315Z
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@FinalOverdrive @boytits @julieofthespirits My own position is that all state intervention is without exception off the table, but things like a consensus-dependent-community putting a serial rapist in a dungeon and throwing away the key, murdering a chomo, and torturing a wife-beater, are wholly available - and also, crucially, wholly unrelated to creating societal conditions that make it so the sorts of people who engage in these behaviors are not possible.
(DIR) Post #AUUSEr8k78JIQdmOrQ by boytits@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T22:59:33Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat Yeah, I get where you're coming from. I think what I was trying to say is that I was truly unaware that these folks were misrepresenting TJ until I started speaking about my bad experiences with them and other folks began telling me that what I had encountered under the label of TJ was a misapplication of it.I feel like it would be easier to discuss if there was a term for it like TERFs or ancaps
(DIR) Post #AUUSErljm9VCNa1Xdo by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T23:03:12.397798Z
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@boytits Letās coin one here and now. What are itās features as youāve seen them?
(DIR) Post #AUUTv4dIRElOOOlWzo by dragora@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T23:04:04Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits @trans_caracal Having read your transformative justice post, can you elaborate a little more on what you see transformative justice practice looking like, and how that differs from the accountability processes that usually get labeled TJ? I'm having a hard time envisioning the practicalities of what you're talking about.
(DIR) Post #AUUTv574eWaBskhJPU by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T23:22:22.072512Z
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@dragora @boytits @trans_caracal Iām talking about resisting manifestations of patriarchy that enable people committed to doing harm, and similarly resisting other structures that enable corresponding harm - these could be, and have been, and should repeatedly be, listed exhaustively. I mean resisting both individual instances of these things as well as overarching currents on micro and macro levels, in every way at all times. Iām saying something generalized here, but in practice what this looks like is intervening on an instance of harm from within a community by focusing on the conditions that built the behavior, and introducing/implementing holistic tools that dismantle those conditions in both the larger society and the influencing group around a given person. Alienation makes this hard, the state makes this hard. Itās a hard row to hoe. That could (generally, loosely) look like instigating a feminist campaign of raising womenās voices and figuring women as sentient actors with autonomy and agency worthy of respect in a community that enables misogynists.This is opposed to some self-appointed council simply interrogating or just publicly embarrassing or exiling someone accused of something, and then smugly calling the problem solved.
(DIR) Post #AUUV1MfqNIZO2OWLnE by boytits@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T23:29:18Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat I don't have a super concise way of articulating it, but I've always encountered these folks in prison abolition spaces offering up their mangled version of TJ as an alternative to prisons. Usually their angle is that being a prison abolitionist means we have to love and accept everyone and if we just love people good enough then they will stop doing harm. These folks are always strictly non-violent. Their analysis feels very shallow and like they have no experience dealing with abuse or rape. An over-emphasis on the person who caused harm being changed, healed, transformed, fixed, etc. A lack of understanding of what abuse is and how it is distinct from other types of harm. Telling folks they're not allowed to use the terms rapist or abuser
(DIR) Post #AUUVfcxXFHni83zits by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T23:41:35.500386Z
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@boytits @boytits Faux-TJ just names what it isnāt. Interrogative Justice isnāt enough and doesnāt really encompass all this bastardized approach contains. Coherency doesnāt demand that the word justice be involved, and I donāt tend to believe that Transformative approaches are more at fault for contributing to this phenomena than Restorative approaches, so references to transformation and justice arenāt necessarily imperative imo, though pointing at it is helpful in terms of talking about what TJ isnāt. āInjusticeā might be a too-on-the-nose component, but I kinda doubt inverting terms can go farther than that. Idk if Iām suited to workshopping this kinda thing. This seems to have a lot to do with also wildly misappropriating the principles of nonviolence. Pacifism isnāt the same as nonviolence. Permissive approaches to intervention is not what TJ advocates, though any proponent of TJ (or anyone else) would obviously be glad to see someone in practice motivated to effectively abandon their abusive habits through a changed, newly intolerant culture. What motivates those who engage in this kind of protecting, maintaining, fixing? What kind of self-aggrandizing benefit do we see them reinforced by? Once we abandon state interventions, we are left with a wealth of cultural points of view, so what culture creates the thing people are mislabeling TJ? It seems mainly consumerist culture.
(DIR) Post #AUUVk9q8wBqxGVhHtI by ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T23:41:08Z
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@boytits @kittenlikeasmallcat that is really fucked up. Abolition provides safety in knowing that folks are free to retaliate. The only person who was punished when I was assaulted was me when I fought back.
(DIR) Post #AUUVkAJZAnOAjlSmki by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T23:42:49.562279Z
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@ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs @boytits Thatās exactly the kind of condition that itās so important to avoid at all costs. What do you mean abolition?
(DIR) Post #AUUVunIz3tUOYnG7pw by ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social
2023-04-09T23:44:29Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits I mean getting rid of the carceral system.
(DIR) Post #AUUWD3PVvBKLir1KAy by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-09T23:48:01.051437Z
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@ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs @boytits Oh I think I understand now. Is what youāre saying that self-defense is more harshly punished than structural harm? If so FUCKING BINGO NAILED IT and I am overwhelmingly enraged on your behalf. <3
(DIR) Post #AUUXJlKVdwXdcxRToO by ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social
2023-04-10T00:00:17Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits fuck loving everybody. I want to be free to fight back.
(DIR) Post #AUUY9Um2RX6bL1zFSq by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-10T00:09:48.384756Z
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@ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs @boytits Christ itās just so viscerally mortifying that pacifist ānonviolenceā has been misused like that to supplant such revolting notions as ālove your oppressor.ā Nonviolence was always supposed to be one of many tools to effectively resist hegemony, not an excuse to be compliant with or tolerant of it. Itās a shameful disgrace.We know that The Prison Industrial Complex is there primarily to ensure those resisting domination are as restricted from doing so as possible, anyone aware, even in passing, of itās whole history canāt deny that - and since just abandoning the PIC isnāt enough, there needs to be people motivated to use all kinds of effective approaches to remake conditions where structural harm isnāt constantly reproduced.
(DIR) Post #AUUYyydZAgxWj6ZYQ4 by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-10T00:19:06.541452Z
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@ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs @boytits Does Opportunistic Pacifist (in)Justice seem to cut it? Thereās critical elements of disregarding consensus-process inherent to naming the thing.
(DIR) Post #AUUZdJbwbuiDMK34cK by Ryoko_Hakubi@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-10T00:17:31.591370Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs @boytits love your opressor reads like know your enemy to me
(DIR) Post #AUUZdKEEJZKxH3xeIC by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-10T00:26:23.012265Z
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@Ryoko_Hakubi @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs @boytits To be sure, one ritual inspired by particular indigenous turtle island approaches one can choose to participate in is to sit someone interdependent with a community who has done some sort of harm (and was motivated to do so because of being alienated) in the center of a group and telling them how they are loved until there are a lot of tears. (Candles and sigils optional.) The idea of doing this to the CEO of ur local oil refinery is a littleā¦. yāknow like, irrevocably bonkers and also in no way relevent to the nature of the harm done but hey.
(DIR) Post #AUUZgbkVd6mCTxcnI0 by foment@kolektiva.social
2023-04-10T00:26:06Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits I've really been enjoying your dialogue. It seems to me that one of the animating forces behind the misapplication of TJ is the protestant moralism that's also behind the "nonviolence at all costs" perspective. Turn the other cheek and lead by example, etc. I'm also realizing that I really don't need a better understanding TJ, so thanks for the discussion!
(DIR) Post #AUUqfS9JXETVdjGJX6 by dragora@kolektiva.social
2023-04-10T01:07:02Z
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@kittenlikeasmallcat @boytits For at least some people who advocate this sort of thing, I suspect it's motivated by a liberal approach to prison abolition. A lot of people (myself included at the time; I like to think my thinking has evolved a lot since then) can get persuaded over to prison abolition by the argument that prisons don't work. This is true, but a lot of them take that argument to mean we just need to replace them with something more effective, which usually ends up being something like an accountability process, which they're assured will really work this time. People then get so starry-eyed about the possibilities of redemption that they lose sight of how much this centers abusers and denigrates survivors. Note that this isn't everyone. There's definitely some folks who exploit this cynically to cover up their own abusive tendencies. On the other hand, though, I think you've also got groups of people who are terrified of getting cancelled or whatever and think that being serious about dealing with rapists means that they'll be doomed if they speak out of turn. As other people have pointed out, this is the kind of conflation that's led Conflict Is Not Abuse to get so damn popular, and it's had some pretty pernicious effects.I think all of this ultimately stems from a failure to understand or account for the power dynamics at the heart of carceralism; they're assuming that the abusers get imprisoned and we're just not dealing with them properly. Thirty-One Theses encapsulates this failure pretty well in point 24: https://immerautonom.noblogs.org/thirty-one-theses-a-manifesto/As far as what to call this, I have no real idea.
(DIR) Post #AUUr1bYHFzFvAkV8Yy by kittenlikeasmallcat@social.xenofem.me
2023-04-10T03:41:16.983077Z
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@dragora @boytits something weird broke, pls ignore deleted postI am entirely and without caveats, categorically aligned with every word of every single one of the 31 Theses Manifesto, and I share your critique in terms of identifying liberalism here, and I also believe that the project of caring for the harmed is essential and central, and the notion of a nebulous āaccountability processā can mean so many things that itās for our purposes a null pointer, and needs an explicit, custom-crafted variety of spellings-out and expansions. To say more, neither (caring for the harmed) or (addressing someone who has harmed) (to be as general as I can) is always identical to carrying out Transformative Justice. For the conditions we desire to appear we need to take pointed, tactical action that deeply considers as many factors as we have available, and come to decisions regarding instances of harm in a way that is liberated by a formal and inclusive consensus process - not anything remotely like a goddamn jury and not anything remotely like a mob. To show up for anyone who has been subject to harm first involves the harm discontinuing by any means to be entirely sure, and involves much else, but is not the only element of the sort of worldmaking that certainly must happen at all times. Liberal & Pacifist Accountability Process has a sort of ring to it? Abuser-Centered Accountability Process might be the thing? Is Liberal, Pacifist, Abuser-Centered Accountability Process too wordy? LPACAP? Everyone loves initialisms, right?