Post ATyhuP9VR6I5iwKBKy by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
(DIR) More posts by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
(DIR) Post #ATxF9XIyJbn3WXegLo by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-24T22:31:05Z
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It appears a lot of people don't understand the implications of laws like Utah's -- which will extend beyond the state, and be copied by many other states -- involving limits on children accessing social media. In order to prevent children from creating social media accounts by themselves, it is required that *ALL* users of social media be identified via government IDs. This is literally the beginning of Chinese-style control and tracking of ALL Internet usage here in the U.S. Nothing less.
(DIR) Post #ATxFYNUvumOoLb5yng by philip_cardella@historians.social
2023-03-24T22:35:28Z
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@lauren Americans have a hard time understanding how state laws (and judicial rulings) impact the nation. It's literally destroying our democracy.
(DIR) Post #ATxGRghaDSyBpoO05A by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-24T22:45:35Z
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@lauren back in 1992 I had to show my ID just to use a BBS. This is nothing new.
(DIR) Post #ATxHGRoTKfNAQUoREW by thomasafine@social.linux.pizza
2023-03-24T22:44:40Z
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@lauren Didn't Louisiana just do the same thing with porn sites?
(DIR) Post #ATxHGSmNjvILQIqHc8 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-24T22:54:47Z
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@thomasafine AFAIK only porn sites. A vastly narrower universe.
(DIR) Post #ATxHQqSSYe0pl0TSyG by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-24T22:56:40Z
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@funhouseradio Comparing BBSes in 1992 with the Internet in 2023 is like comparing a homemade crystal radio set with a vast satellite communications network. And for the record, I used a lot of BBSes and never was asked for an ID anywhere.
(DIR) Post #ATxJId1koDHph6C0XY by thomasafine@social.linux.pizza
2023-03-24T23:17:33Z
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@lauren Less visitors (I assume). But a lot more sites and a lot less oversight. Porn would be the easier target if I had sinister intentions.
(DIR) Post #ATxJkfni5gKuP7zqaG by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-24T23:22:39Z
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@thomasafine ID'g across social media means providing the ability to link users who have expressed different opinions and/or viewed different materials relating to private aspects of their lives. You can link someone's personal health queries with their job work. Abused youths will have their searches for resources monitored by abusive parents. Data breaches will expose your age and your entire life across the entire Internet, since it will be impossible to use different names or birthdays to avoid linkages as is common today. It goes on and on.
(DIR) Post #ATxLcvSgBENgZDapWa by kkeller@curling.social
2023-03-24T23:43:36Z
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@lauren I imagine many of those folks *do* understand the implications and misguidedly believe it's a good thing.
(DIR) Post #ATxNJCGUCD18nYbsaO by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T00:02:27Z
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@lauren ok but I was asked for ID. I'm not saying I like this law but something needs to be done to keep the little kids off of social media. They check your ID to get into a nightclub. Why? Because underage people who don't even have their parents permission show up there anyway.
(DIR) Post #ATxOBFtguIU1hXj0Qi by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T00:12:12Z
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@lauren #Utah's social-media law threatens crucial civil liberties of...adults:"it is required that *ALL* adult users of social media be identified via government IDs. This is literally the beginning of Chinese-style control and tracking of ALL Internet usage here in the U.S..."This will be a blueprint for other #RedStates, says #CBS:"...Arkansas, Texas, Ohio and Louisiana, have similar proposals in the works, along with New Jersey. "https://www.cbsnews.com/news/utah-law-social-media-apps-parental-consent/
(DIR) Post #ATxPVzMlfEIuSzm9Kq by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T00:23:41Z
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@funhouseradio @lauren I agree. In principle.Unlimited access to the web, even for teenagers is detrimental to their health*.Until the advent of mobile contracts of several GB per month, things were relatively easy:put the kids on a different router and the router on a timer. It then turns of at night time.It usually comes equipped with usage time, black listing and white listing per user. Requires some time, but works.Mobile networks should..
(DIR) Post #ATxPVzvrYkNQDqCB2O by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T00:27:08Z
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@HistoPol @funhouseradio All you need to do to see how "ID to use the Internet" models work is what happens in China. They've been doing it for years. And it's a horror show. It's *inevitable*. Because once governments know they can track everything you do at every site, and you can't create pseudonyms to protect the different parts of your life, you have created a technological dictatorship. With the best of intentions about "protecting the children", you still end up in the "road paved with best intentions" hell.
(DIR) Post #ATxPW06UvCsqkpAfc8 by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T00:25:42Z
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@funhouseradio @lauren ...be pressured to implement similar controls for the minor's smartphones.More health-impact info:American Origin Stories with Matthew Cooke: Mastering the Media Matrix via @getSonnethttps://i.sonnet.fm/z8jg3DJf1Dh5fAqh8
(DIR) Post #ATxPlq8DlXkWSXWudU by Shachihoko@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T00:26:08Z
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@HistoPol @lauren đ¤Źđ˘ What is there that the rest of us can do about this, besides resisting giving over true information as long as possible and raising the general hue and cry?I'm not remembering for sure off the top of my head, but I suspect @eff and/or @team are already raising the alarm about this - or will soon if they hadn't.
(DIR) Post #ATxPlqvqn1RqwSkXzc by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T00:29:50Z
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@Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team All I can do is try to publicly highlight the depths of the dangers involved. I do not have the resources nor organizational skills to go beyond that.
(DIR) Post #ATxQZz4qmRMmgOrcWG by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T00:38:52Z
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@laurenI am not a tech person by education.However, I have spent many hours with this German #podcast series:#TheGreatFirewall: Wie China das Internet verändert: The Great Firewall https://i.sonnet.fm/9NRgTfTe8imvcH5B7The title is self-explanatory.In English, there is this:https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110058004323012344...and it should convince any "unbeliever" in #China's digital #Orwellian dystopia.@funhouseradio
(DIR) Post #ATxR99w4OvFsUkWu8G by SocialistStan@kolektiva.social
2023-03-25T00:41:45Z
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@Shachihoko @HistoPol @lauren @eff @team you're already doing it, use Mastodon/fediverse
(DIR) Post #ATxR9BkndnQc8NGvqK by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T00:45:25Z
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@SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team Mastodon has virtually no impact on the world at large. And eventually, those laws will apply to distributed social media like #Mastodon as well.
(DIR) Post #ATxRShi936GWkXKthA by SocialistStan@kolektiva.social
2023-03-25T00:48:49Z
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@lauren @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team There will always be an instance that ignores them.
(DIR) Post #ATxRwiFnayMh7XO2Ns by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T00:54:21Z
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@lauren @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team Actually, there are things you can do.I recently read about a resistance guide book, first developed to resist Trump's election in 2016 and just now updated for the next #POTUS election. The methods are the same. One involves calling your #Congressman/#Congresswoman.If I remember the name, I'll come back to this thread.Same for other democracies, e.g. in #Europe.
(DIR) Post #ATxT41WMSVocrFBRGy by seanm@infosec.exchange
2023-03-25T01:06:51Z
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@lauren @thomasafine yet, this still creates the foundational infrastructure for tracking people. Start with marginalized groups then add the general populace.
(DIR) Post #ATxTCDGIgqoTaXZmlc by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T01:08:26Z
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@HistoPol @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team The politicians are mostly all in on this, both on the Left and the Right. Such an Internet is irresistible from a political objectives standpoint for both parties. They both know that to control the users of the Internet is to control the world. Literally.
(DIR) Post #ATxTKLp8k09KSXkj2m by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T01:09:53Z
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@seanm @thomasafine Yes. Then you move (as Utah has done) to social media generally above a given size. Then you keep lowering that threshold. Then bring in the efforts to require adult-only access to any Internet materials deemed "unsuitable for children". This is also already in the works. It all depends on government IDs. And that's the whole ball game.
(DIR) Post #ATxTxRYdMBFDXIflqq by SocialistStan@kolektiva.social
2023-03-25T01:16:57Z
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@lauren @HistoPol @Shachihoko @eff @team Yup, two wings one bird. I don't think they realize what they're up against though, look at the proliferation of pirate sites for example, there will always be a social media service that ignores their 'rule of law', just like there will always be a streaming service that does.
(DIR) Post #ATxUQRsJFvK6uzhs92 by windsofdawn@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T01:22:11Z
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@lauren @HistoPol @funhouseradio They don't have good intentions. "Protecting the children" is just an excuse to set up a surveillance state.
(DIR) Post #ATxUc9TxSvDlLhtfyy by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T01:24:21Z
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@windsofdawn @HistoPol @funhouseradio For many of them, that is an accurate assessment.
(DIR) Post #ATxVD9qd4KPVCK9Ao4 by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T01:30:10Z
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@SocialistStan @lauren @Shachihoko @eff @team One strategy, another is selecting an instance in the #EuropeanUnion with #GDPDR privacy-laws protection (no to #Hungary and #Poland, though).
(DIR) Post #ATxVDB0wjSG0obyvWi by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T01:31:02Z
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@HistoPol @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team The EU is actually moving in much the same direction. There will be no respite there.
(DIR) Post #ATxW03rs5gxuqC2ygq by SocialistStan@kolektiva.social
2023-03-25T01:39:49Z
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@lauren @HistoPol @Shachihoko @eff @team One thing to remember is it's not in any government's best interests to allow their subjects unfettered monitored internet access, the incentives don't align on it. this goes back to the days of the printing press.If you're looking for a free and open internet you have to go through civilian groups, and Mastodon is an ideal tool for that.
(DIR) Post #ATxX2o5pIXB0jrRniy by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T01:51:31Z
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@lauren @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team Yes, the discussions about Chat Control.
(DIR) Post #ATxZEDwZj2X60Vgxxg by volkris@qoto.org
2023-03-25T02:16:01Z
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@laurenWell, so much depends on actual implementation.An impossible to implement law is just bluster. Annoying, yes, and maybe even expensive to the government trying to pursue it, but itâs not clear Utahâs law will be anything more than whistling into the wind.Itâd be like a city council outlawing gravity. Thatâs a nice law theyâve got there, butâŚSo weâll see. Utahâs law so far is little but a political stunt.
(DIR) Post #ATxaItI62WVJM6Y0oK by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T02:28:06Z
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@volkris There are firms happy to provide ID/age verification services that would enable the entire scheme.
(DIR) Post #ATxaRZtFXZtRn84HPk by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T02:29:41Z
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@volkris And multiple other states plan the same approach -- one is going even further already. Plus federal efforts endorsed by politicians of both parties.
(DIR) Post #ATxaslWAPvDlfmEeVk by volkris@qoto.org
2023-03-25T02:34:31Z
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@laurenThatâs not the critical part for enabling the scheme, though. The state would need a way to enforce it, and that would be difficult.All the firms in the world trying to sell verification services wonât matter if nobody bothers going to them because the law is unenforceable in the first place.
(DIR) Post #ATxbjx1MNaByhHBcMy by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T02:44:12Z
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@volkris It will be enforceable to the extent that courts permit it to be enforced. Since this path has been endorsed by so many politicians of BOTH parties, as part of their "Big Tech Hate", there is little else (except courts) to stop it, ultimately. And putting your eggs in the basket of the Supreme Court these days is, shall we say, risky.
(DIR) Post #ATxbuNtFKr8cvTMm36 by thesquirrelfish@sfba.social
2023-03-25T02:46:03Z
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@lauren @thomasafine both are problematic. Social media registration puts dissenters at risk, porn registration attaches a person's sexual preferences to their identity. Do you trust Louisiana cops to not treat LGBTQ+ profiling like racial profiling?
(DIR) Post #ATxc930nF6HqW6t8Vs by EricLawton@spore.social
2023-03-25T02:48:43Z
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@laurenUnless they track location, this could extend beyond the US.I can't see the EU accepting it.It may give a boost to Fediverse servers outside the USA and drive users from American sites. Not me, I already moved.
(DIR) Post #ATxcoFpSUeMA8qEf4K by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T02:56:11Z
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@EricLawton UK has already gone further. EU is moving on its own child protection schemes. These schemes inevitably require IDing every adult account. Sometimes they're pushed via third-party verifiers, claiming that keeps the detailed data away from the individual websites. But of course that third party knows everything, and that database is ripe for abuse by governments to link users across sites for tracking, and of course data breaches would be disastrous.
(DIR) Post #ATxcyF3MEUH0dCV0Ai by spiegelmama@infosec.exchange
2023-03-25T02:16:33Z
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@funhouseradio @lauren Why do we need to keep kids off the internet at all, and why are we willing to give up everyone's human rights to accomplish this vague goal?
(DIR) Post #ATxcyFjtgKIil8OyTg by thesquirrelfish@sfba.social
2023-03-25T02:52:51Z
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@spiegelmama @funhouseradio @lauren the internet as operated by Insta/Face/TikTok has had a marked impact on teen mental health and suicide rates. But I believe we're unfairly targeting social media, when it should be the entire advertising industry we shouldn't allow to victimize children. It doesn't matter if it's a TV commercial, a promoted post etc, if the underlying message is 'you're inadequate if you don't ______' it should be treated like buying alcohol.
(DIR) Post #ATxcyHmo4Toh6jmKI4 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T02:57:58Z
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@thesquirrelfish @spiegelmama @funhouseradio You can't separate children out from the rest of the population without imposing a strict ID scheme on the entire population, with all the tracking, abuse, and other risks that would follow over time.
(DIR) Post #ATxelh7WlfPTp9au1I by juliewebgirl@mstdn.social
2023-03-25T03:17:35Z
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@laurenAnybody remember when Google circles tried to force you to provide state ID. (I think it was circles? They've gone through so many products)That failed miserably. The Internet won.
(DIR) Post #ATxfSqU1pfqZJZh8yW by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T03:25:56Z
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@juliewebgirl For a brief time Google+ was interested in an identity function. It didn't last long, but there is no comparison with Utah's and other state and federal *laws* requiring IDs to use the Internet. Whole different world.
(DIR) Post #ATxiqSjI6G3ESKmq3s by 3dogcouch@mas.to
2023-03-25T04:03:45Z
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@lauren I thought these right wing ppl said they were all for parental responsibility, control, freedom, government keep out, etc but at every turn they go the wrong way
(DIR) Post #ATxj41hFP97kfXIa8W by thesquirrelfish@sfba.social
2023-03-25T04:06:15Z
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@lauren @spiegelmama @funhouseradio yes, and I feel like this is an area where the USA keeps failing. Most of the world understands that blending age groups makes it safer - kids see the range of adult behavior and the consequences of being drunk uncle vs cool uncle. The solution isn't age-gating it's including healthy role models. But that would also counteract the advertising so it's not economically feasible to stop isolating and targeting vulnerable adolescents.
(DIR) Post #ATxkE2H4DACtJKODj6 by juliewebgirl@mstdn.social
2023-03-25T04:19:15Z
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@laurenGoogle+! That was it. So short lived I forgot the name. First, social media is not "the Internet". Whole different thing.Big social is not on board. There's no way to enforce these laws, and I can spot a dozen ways around them. Kids get around restrictions now by using Google docs. They're creative and motivated.And what happens when they get caught breaking these laws?Gonna be half of Utah in Juvie.Utah may just start breeding really good hackers.#infosec
(DIR) Post #ATxkrJGYyBddItshVI by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T04:26:21Z
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@juliewebgirl I believe you'll find that the penalties move in much the same direction as anti-abortion penalties now appearing in red states, with rights for every "affected" individual to sue the firms. Plus the laws themselves already have built in enormous penalties based on the number of children potentially affected. Also, social media is only the initial target. There is already legislation to expand the ID requirements to all sites that contain any material "not appropriate for children." The UK is already pushing this and it's likely to be enforced, and there are U.S. efforts also. Plus the already passed laws in Florida and Texas prohibiting removal of hate speech, etc.. with more red states moving in the same direction. Note that since it's impossible for the firms to "filter" out users based on IP addresses alone (due to VPNs, CDNs, etc.) firms are likely to apply the most restrictive measures globally, in many cases drastically reducing or eliminating UGC entirely.
(DIR) Post #ATxmbBd9n5bUthtBFQ by juliewebgirl@mstdn.social
2023-03-25T04:45:49Z
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@laurenYou mean user generated content on social media ie. walled gardens owned by corporations as opposed to say my own website, as part of the #Fediverse? I know what they want. And it's not "for the children". I also don't know what Utah is like. How much fight they have.Sorry, I've crossed over the line of ultra cynical the last 3 years. My outrage only comes in bursts. Maybe Big Social needs to change.I don't think the law will fly as written. The advertising part, sure.
(DIR) Post #ATxosN3Mm4Rr9iTCoy by Doppelganger75@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T05:11:20Z
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@lauren I think this is going to backfire on Republicans once people realize what a hassle this creates.
(DIR) Post #ATxsSntyjGJGiF8wMK by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T05:51:37Z
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@Doppelganger75 Most of these efforts are bipartisan. Both parties, the left and the right, are pushing for these restrictions in one form or another. It's all part of politician's big tech hate.
(DIR) Post #ATxsx5jczTuAhykBxQ by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T05:57:03Z
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@thesquirrelfish @spiegelmama @funhouseradio UK, EU and most of the rest of the world whether democratic or not are moving in the same direction and the same kinds of restrictions. And they are popular with both political parties in the US and both the left and the right. Control of the Internet and its users is irresistible to all politicians and all leaders. They've been biding their time for decades; their time has arrived.
(DIR) Post #ATxt4wXP4MUeV5lo12 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T05:58:29Z
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@3dogcouch These restrictions are not being promoted only by the right wing, they are popular with the left and both parties and political leaders of both parties as well.
(DIR) Post #ATxtIfkyG3zmVbf9oO by olavf@spacey.space
2023-03-25T06:00:54Z
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@lauren afaik this mirrors the UK law, and a tidy way to make sure dissidents don't dissident. The CA law I can't really make sense of: I think that if I self-determine something isn't age-appropriate I can take ale steps to be reasonably assured the viewers.are of age. The tricky part is I can do that with an instance relatively easily if I know the members to the third degree, but do I have to take steps for people on other instances?
(DIR) Post #ATyFQX2ClgyQlYsPlg by j2kun@mathstodon.xyz
2023-03-25T10:08:44Z
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@lauren the only reason it's "all internet usage" is because the internet has become reduced to 5 websites (social media) posting screenshots of the other 4.
(DIR) Post #ATyR40scpuHa7UQOC8 by 3dogcouch@mas.to
2023-03-25T12:19:10Z
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@lauren good point, & very unfortunate
(DIR) Post #ATyUicHXUoshZ78A1A by lymond@hachyderm.io
2023-03-25T13:00:11Z
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@lauren @cstross
(DIR) Post #ATyZYHW8LKs82Xqeg4 by mxl@mathstodon.xyz
2023-03-25T13:48:41Z
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@lauren This is not Chinese-style control at all. They don't prevent children nor do they protect them in this way here.
(DIR) Post #ATyhuORY4X83Wbl4oy by mnemonicoverload@libranet.de
2023-03-25T14:30:10Z
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@laurenIt's unenforceable outside the US. At worst it just causes the USA to become less dominant in the social media space as platforms that don't have a US business presence can tell them to go pound sand.@volkris
(DIR) Post #ATyhuP9VR6I5iwKBKy by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:27:48Z
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@mnemonicoverload @volkris The UK has already moved farther in this direction. The EU is also moving toward these "child protection" ID models -- in some cases even more radical that in the U.S. This is not a U.S.-only issue, nor an issue of the political right alone - both left and right are rushing in this direction. They all want control of the Internet.
(DIR) Post #ATyi6bkWQV6OGfSPzc by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:30:10Z
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@mxl The Chinese have imposed vast restrictions not only on children's use of the Internet but of all adults, with a wide-ranging ID-based control system. Users are routinely arrested -- sometimes totally disappeared -- for what the government considers "wrong thinking" comments or discussions on social media. Using a VPN to try evade restrictions can similarly get you arrested -- or worse.
(DIR) Post #ATyi9ZrdtM7xI2ChdY by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:30:43Z
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@mcmcgreevy @funhouseradio And?
(DIR) Post #ATyiIbt5jq1qAhBldw by graygoogirl@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T11:26:34Z
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@olavfThe whole point of this is for conservatives to clamp down on social media access for everyone, not just minors. Government IDs in the US aren't free, so these laws make social media exclusionary to poor people. Small social media sites can't afford the verification process and would need to block access on a state by state basis. These laws exist because R's are mad at TikTok for rallying young people into political action.@lauren
(DIR) Post #ATyiIcZdBg3YId5jwu by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:32:23Z
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@graygoogirl @olavf Both the right and the left -- both parties -- are enthusiastically moving toward the "ID to use the Internet model". This is virtually no political divide on this.
(DIR) Post #ATyibtOGt419xRy2eO by Reiddragon@mk.absturztau.be
2023-03-25T15:31:29.833Z
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@spiegelmama@infosec.exchange @funhouseradio@mastodon.world @lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org about the only parts of the internet I could understand keeping them off of are porn and gambling sites but you can just block those on the router, really not that hard to do and honestly if your kid figures out how to bypass that you should be happy they didn't just accept censorship (altho do put heavier locks in place, gambling bad and porn at an early age also has documented negative effects)
(DIR) Post #ATyibuMXH0DuyMAAaG by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:35:52Z
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@Reiddragon @funhouseradio @spiegelmama The push is to keep children away from anything considered "inappropriate" for them. For most of the politicians, that includes about 75% of the Net -- any adult topics, anything about sex, and in many states now anything about slavery or racial issues. The list is endless.
(DIR) Post #ATyijy57KVNip7rJqq by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:37:21Z
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@lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team That's just techie talk. Most people are not in the realm where anything like that is possible. And a few massive fines against some of the larger instances will have an enormous chilling effect.
(DIR) Post #ATyiteYcm5UhAOHM92 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:39:06Z
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@lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team You underestimate the scope of the laws being proposed, and how enthusiastically both U.S. parties want them.
(DIR) Post #ATyj8GcA4meXFityRU by ATyj8GNyvVJIXkGeLA.lori@cambrian.social
2023-03-25T05:55:41Z
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My hate is for the decision to commercialize the Internet in the first place. I see "big tech" as merely a symptom of that.
(DIR) Post #ATyj8HGZeWylH3oFQu by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:41:41Z
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@lori @Doppelganger75 Without a commercialized Internet, we wouldn't be having this conversation today. I've been working on the Net since the first site on ARPANET at UCLA. Literally the first site on the Internet. I know of what I speak in this realm.
(DIR) Post #ATyjMBAh6sSeQRgiwa by Reiddragon@mk.absturztau.be
2023-03-25T15:39:38.270Z
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@lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org @funhouseradio@mastodon.world @spiegelmama@infosec.exchange oh yeah, heard about it, didn't look too deep into it cause it was a busy few days for me but what I did see did sound very fucked, altho not at all surprising given the political climate in the US and the pro-censorship stances some US politicians (especially on the republican side) have been takingbut yeah, no, leave the net alone and if you have kids just block porn and gambling sites on the router or with parental control tools available on basically any modern OS, if your stance on this is anything different then I'd really like to know why cause rn the only reason I can think of to disagree with my stance on this is if you're a fascist or an ignorant idiot
(DIR) Post #ATyjMBpodzM2TyvZ2W by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:44:15Z
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@Reiddragon @funhouseradio @spiegelmama Both the Right and the Left -- politicians in both parties -- are enthusiastically endorsing "ID to use the Internet" models ultimately patterned after China. There is virtually no political divide on this.
(DIR) Post #ATyjXKRwxBqOO44lH6 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:46:17Z
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@lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team People try to do end-runs around the Internet laws in China this way. Some techies get away with it. Many get arrested. It's just not an option for most people who only use mainstream services. And it's the same situation coming in the U.S. in terms of users. Most people aren't going to be using novelty mugs to search the Net.
(DIR) Post #ATyk1R6CnQmzhHGG5Q by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:51:43Z
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@lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team Most people will support it, on "protect the children" grounds. Also outlawing of strong encryption. Those that don't will be branded outlaws. Just like in China. The patterns are clear. Dictatorships take many forms and an "information dictatorship" has been waiting in the wings for decades.
(DIR) Post #ATykPFpcLA7zhXrMn2 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:56:01Z
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@lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team You're confusing intelligence with fear. What drives these kinds of changes is fear, and sometimes intelligent people are the most fearful in these regards, because they can better imagine all sorts of horrible outcomes. I believe you'll find that "ID and tracking to use the Net" would easily have majority support from people in both parties if polled. Perhaps a large majority.
(DIR) Post #ATykhRPO2JNqoqGLVg by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T15:59:18Z
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@lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team Nothing like that is taught in most schools and never has been.
(DIR) Post #ATykveReMbfXIz65qq by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T16:01:52Z
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@lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @HistoPol @eff @team It's not usually a plan per se. It's more of the natural flow of human nature for control, essentially the same since the caves, if not earlier.
(DIR) Post #ATymHgrKAVtf7LBACO by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T16:17:01Z
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@lauren @lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team Novelty mugs?
(DIR) Post #ATymVT7U32FqYlJ7x2 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T16:19:33Z
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@HistoPol @lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team Good old Mastodon probably isn't showing you the context leading up to that reply. I can see it, but apparently you can't. Typical.
(DIR) Post #ATyo5n57PKV0qj5JbM by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T16:37:16Z
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@lauren @lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team Regarding #MAGA it definitely is a plan. The playbook is the same as the one of the #AmericaFirst movement (arguably a brainchild of the #Nazi Government) in the 1940's.It was just executed much better.
(DIR) Post #ATyojoJ4GwpAERgzIG by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T16:44:32Z
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@lauren @lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team Possibly, though I did not have the feeling I was missing something.I just haven't heard that expression.
(DIR) Post #ATyopgcTlUdM83Zd5M by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T16:45:37Z
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@HistoPol @lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team An earlier post by someone else used it and I was responding to it.
(DIR) Post #ATyp5uZldyDE2y2fWi by JMaverickJacks1@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T16:48:31Z
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@lauren That sounds like the Communications Decency Act, which the U.S. Supreme Court struck down in the 1990s - before ideological extremists gained a 6-3 majority. Before that law was overturned, newspapers could not lawfully quote certain verses from the King James Bible online because those verses contain a âfilthy wordâ deemed indecent for children in the 1970s case FCC v. Pacifica. Specifically, the King James Bible frequently uses the word âpissâ for urine.
(DIR) Post #ATypgflbfMpApe6nsu by HistoPol@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T16:55:09Z
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@lauren @lispi314 @SocialistStan @Shachihoko @eff @team Goodness! LOL"a novelty thermos mug (for example)."I guess this how new terms come into a language...abbreviations and misunderstandings. đ
(DIR) Post #ATyqMmqriPRQy3eN4y by graygoogirl@mastodon.social
2023-03-25T17:02:47Z
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@laurenI have yet to see evidence that this is a bi-partisan move. I'd be happy to reconsider if shown actual evidence.@olavf
(DIR) Post #ATyqfiTODeEWtDhCTo by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T17:06:13Z
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@graygoogirl @olavf There are state efforts too but here's one of the federal ones. Impossible without ID'ing all adults. - https://www.blumenthal.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/kids_online_safety_act_-_one_pager.pdf
(DIR) Post #ATyrQaPI1heFU27xXk by JMaverickJacks1@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T17:14:40Z
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@lauren âThe level of discourse reaching a mailbox simply cannot be limited to that which would be suitable for a sandbox.â - Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, on the absurdity of regulating adult speech with kiddie standards, in the case Bolger v. Youngs Drugs, which the Court quoted to end a ban on online âindecencyâ in Reno v. ACLU. The most influential book ever, the Bible, is full of âindecentâ sex, violence and language that billions find educational.
(DIR) Post #ATyrlKAtZYFjDnHceG by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T17:18:28Z
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@JMaverickJacks1 Ancient history by Supreme Court standards. If you heard the recent Internet arguments before the court, one of the liberals was taking the worst possible stance.
(DIR) Post #ATyrpnhlio8XxxnHqS by stylinstainless@mastodon.online
2023-03-25T17:19:14Z
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"China is evil! Everything they do is COMMUNIST!" cry the American politicians as they emulate everything China does for economic reasons.
(DIR) Post #ATys29Mf1AOccJoFI8 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T17:21:30Z
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@JMaverickJacks1 Also, keep in mind that the current ID push isn't only about blocking access to static material, but to blocking *interactions* as well.
(DIR) Post #ATysufWRfiYlzSNmnw by olavf@spacey.space
2023-03-25T17:31:18Z
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@lauren@graygoogirl California's latest law is sufficiently vague both in who is affected and how they should keep out/treat minors to reap chaos. I suppose we'll have to see once the rulemaking starts. (I doubt the Fediverse will be affected: no algos, no tracking, not designed in a way that might attract kids)California Governor Signs Sweeping Childrenâs Online Safety Bill https://nyti.ms/3di3oGd
(DIR) Post #ATyt3hgkzFYBJbVvcm by JMaverickJacks1@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T17:32:45Z
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@lauren @thomasafine Laws that ostensibly âonlyâ regulate porn sites will inevitably be interpreted to ban everything that the most reactionary, meddlesome politicians donât like. Thatâs why the Internet community rose up with pitchforks and torches when Bill Clinton caved to conservative pressure to pass the Communications Decency Act in the 1990s. That supposedly âanti-cyberpornâ law censored medical and educational sites and even online Bibles.
(DIR) Post #ATytptEjM4Y71xNjmK by derickr@phpc.social
2023-03-25T17:41:26Z
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@lauren There is a bill currently going through the UK Parliament with similar results, although it's not as far as this one. Then again, the opposition wants to ban VPNs...
(DIR) Post #ATytvcqxBJ3hxIzm8u by volkris@qoto.org
2023-03-25T17:42:40Z
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@laurenRight, but these are different governments with different designs, different enforcement mechanisms, different legal realities.Different checks and balances, different notions of federalism, free speech rights codified, statutory realities, legal precedents⌠I could go on and on.A state can pass whatever laws it wants. Often enough the just-enacted laws will be instantly irrelevant as if they outlawed the next morningâs rising of the sun.An unenforceable statute is just that.So letâs see what happens.Thereâs a good chance this will be nothing but a political stuntâpaid for by the publicâin the end.@mnemonicoverload
(DIR) Post #ATyv4iCclFxJ6i1oGW by JMaverickJacks1@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T17:55:32Z
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@lauren The Communications Decency Act in the 1990s was passed by a coalition of conservatives and liberals with diverse motives for censoring free speech. Religious conservatives were motivated by âSaintâ Augustineâs Gnostic heresy that the human body and sex are inherently evil, even in marriage. Liberals were motivated by the knee-jerk, âpolitically correctâ idea that all sexual expression outside of an Andrea Dworkin-approved utopia is a harassing path to rape.
(DIR) Post #ATyvFVYk6o9l52WQ7c by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T17:57:32Z
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@JMaverickJacks1 Exactly, these efforts are bipartisan, as I keep emphasizing. To assume they are merely fascist ideals is dangerously incorrect. Both parties are willing to sell our rights down the river in these regards.
(DIR) Post #ATyvQUTeTLiquSNTEW by volkris@qoto.org
2023-03-25T17:59:24Z
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@laurenYouâre overlooking the realities of executive branches.It doesnât matter what courts say if the key parts of the picture arenât even in the jurisdiction of law enforcement in the first place.The legislature in California can pass a law outlawing jaywalking on New York streets, but regardless of what any court says, Californiaâs governor wonât be having cops stopping pedestrians in CA that are crossing NY streets because there are no NY streets in CA.Even if the law is passed unanimously with bipartisan approval, there still arenât any NY streets in CA, so the law is irrelevant from the get-go, as thereâs nothing the executive is physically able to enforce.Laws can only be enforced if law enforcement can reach the people involved, regardless of any theoretical or abstract issues.
(DIR) Post #ATyveg6i1sFd28PZeC by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T18:01:56Z
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@volkris There are already similar federal efforts in progress -- bipartisan ones.
(DIR) Post #ATyw1tu4tvloTxZosi by volkris@qoto.org
2023-03-25T18:06:14Z
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@laurenYep, and the same issues apply.I thought it was really funny how with this weekâs fracas over TikTok, so many were yelling about outlawing the thing, and for every twenty voices I heard yelling to make it illegal, I heard maybe one voice quietly asking exactly how exactly that would actually be done.The federal legislature is no stranger to passing unenforceable laws either.California canât enforce a a law against the sun rising tomorrow. But neither can the federal government, even with all the might of the US government behind it.
(DIR) Post #ATz1fCYxxW5pPzGGDg by JMaverickJacks1@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T19:09:21Z
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@lauren Actually, the philosopher Hegel suggested that politics is a ruse in which: (1) allies pretend to oppose each other; (2) those false âopponentsâ argue extremist positions to drive the public to want âcompromiseâ; (3) the secretly allied âopponentsâ publicly agree to grudgingly accept âlimitedâextremism from both sides; and (4) John Q. Public happily accepts getting screwed by whichever side he trusts more because they apparently saved him from worse tyranny.
(DIR) Post #ATzAZ9h0cJ2uMlDOK0 by Pat@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T17:42:02Z
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@funhouseradio @lauren the something you're looking for is parents
(DIR) Post #ATzAZAYXPHrd2mG8ky by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T18:34:19Z
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@Pat @lauren because kids never disobey their parents
(DIR) Post #ATzAZB7zHUDioiqS0m by Pat@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T18:49:23Z
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@funhouseradio @lauren that seems like a household issue and not a govt concern
(DIR) Post #ATzAZBkGz8qSjSl1ge by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T20:44:39Z
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@Pat @lauren so they shouldn't check IDs at the bar either then since it's just a household concern if the people are underage and disobeying their parents?
(DIR) Post #ATzAZCHF0ZDUNiBM4e by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T20:49:07Z
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@funhouseradio @Pat The question is should they being checking, recording, and reporting your ID at every place you go in the real world and online and tying it all back to your actual identity so that at any time the government (whichever party happens to be in power at the time) can sweep up everything you search for, look at, or comment on in any context of your life and use it against you. Bad enough for ordinary folks, horrific for marginalized and already abused populations.
(DIR) Post #ATzAi9mHfaorEhyU0u by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T20:50:41Z
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@lauren @Pat I've been to nightclubs and concerts where they take a picture of every single person's ID and I still haven't had the government show up at my door because I went to see a socialist band like Skinny Puppy.
(DIR) Post #ATzAmI3UpshM4DzqNs by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T20:48:39Z
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@Reiddragon @lauren @spiegelmama I must be an ignorant idiot then. I guess we should stop checking IDs at liquor stores too cuz that's apparently fascist. Would it be okay to check IDs at the gun shop then? I really don't see how we're going to have effective gun control if it doesn't involve checking IDs.
(DIR) Post #ATzAmIaopzLxjZaSK8 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T20:51:27Z
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@funhouseradio @Reiddragon @spiegelmama Again, the question is should they being checking, recording, and reporting your ID at every place you go in the real world and online and tying it all back to your actual identity so that at any time the government (whichever party happens to be in power at the time) can sweep up everything you search for, look at, or comment on in any context of your life and use it against you. Bad enough for ordinary folks, horrific for marginalized and already abused populations.
(DIR) Post #ATzAuym5tG2gsL03ai by Reiddragon@mk.absturztau.be
2023-03-25T20:51:42.365Z
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@funhouseradio@mastodon.world @lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org @spiegelmama@infosec.exchange dawg, I'm talking about the internet, not bars and strip clubs and guns, keep the checks there, but online there's no reason to require IDs for shit like social media or looking up sex ed info or reading up historical information about slavery or all the other garbage they're trying to censor here
(DIR) Post #ATzAuzHdzxHOSBlFlg by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T20:53:05Z
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@Reiddragon @funhouseradio @spiegelmama Exactly.
(DIR) Post #ATzB0AxvzYqA8J13ke by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T20:53:59Z
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@lauren @Reiddragon @spiegelmama I never said it was equivalent there is absolutely nothing equivalent to making you show an ID to use a website. So it actually impossible to cite an example that would be equivalent. So I guess you automatically win the argument regardless because I can't give you an equivalency. Confirmation bias.
(DIR) Post #ATzBJfUeiMmqJbcFSy by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T20:57:33Z
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@Reiddragon @funhouseradio @spiegelmama It's actually even worse than that. Since the Utah law (for example) mandates not only that parents must give explicit permission for children to have social media accounts or use them outside "normal" hours, it also mandates that parents can access all of their children's postings. The theory of course is that this permits well meaning parents to avoid having their child be in communication with bad persons. It also means that a child desperately looking for information about what to do if their parents are abusing them is exposed to those parents, with potentially horrible results.
(DIR) Post #ATzBREKbaQQ2OFWLPk by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T20:58:56Z
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@funhouseradio @Reiddragon @spiegelmama By the way, I wonder how many people here recognize your profile image. I do of course.
(DIR) Post #ATzBXhRYGHF6Pur3Pk by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T21:00:03Z
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@lauren @Reiddragon @spiegelmama I'm not saying I agree with every aspect of this law but a kid can look up stuff without actually joining a social media platform so I don't understand what the problem is here
(DIR) Post #ATzBqpHHMFj4DVAb3o by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T21:03:33Z
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@lauren @Reiddragon @spiegelmama if you recognize the symbol you should give us a listen. Most Novelty songs were released as singles rather than on albums. That is why I picked this as a logo.. until I can afford to pay someone to do something original, which may be never....
(DIR) Post #ATzBxRwaViNrsLeNN2 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-25T21:04:44Z
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@funhouseradio @Reiddragon @spiegelmama The new laws go far beyond just social media.
(DIR) Post #ATzCGQvCXHcyCt3O7M by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T21:08:09Z
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@lauren @Reiddragon @spiegelmama well that's ridiculous. I'm sure there's a lot of problems with this law because it was created by the GOP. I am less concerned about the content a kid sees then I am about adults being able to covertly go after them When I was a kid a person on a BBS system attempted to "groom" me and I didn't realize it until many years later.. what can we do about that? Even if my mom had seen our interactions she would have not realized it either.
(DIR) Post #ATzCngaxHcdYNDRKq0 by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T21:14:09Z
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@lauren @Reiddragon @spiegelmama let me explain something. For example Republicans are now complaining about a two-tier justice system. I agree a two-tier justice system is terrible but they don't mean it the way I mean it even though we are using the same terminology.
(DIR) Post #ATzDLUGXd5iLys0d16 by funhouseradio@mastodon.world
2023-03-25T21:20:16Z
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@lauren @Reiddragon @spiegelmama we have to be careful not to let the GOP own the conversation about protecting kids as if the left don't care about kids. We should engage in the conversation and provide our own remedies not just call them nuts.
(DIR) Post #ATzFHdooN2C0MGKg76 by Cassandra@artisan.chat
2023-03-25T21:41:54Z
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@lauren Three separate things going on.1. Corporations want all of the FA without any of the FO, so when they are held responsible for anything, they reshape the law to shift liability. They don't want to be responsible for damages if (when) a kid sneaks onto the site and sees their content.2. They have been trying to normalize govt ID for everything at least since the Tea Party crackdown because then it is harder for members of outgroups to hide (cf Nazi Germany)
(DIR) Post #ATzFJOjbQJnA9fjYcy by Cassandra@artisan.chat
2023-03-25T21:42:09Z
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@lauren 3. Corporations and the govt would love to be able to track US citizens as China tracks their people.
(DIR) Post #ATzH7nYZVepHZZAeTQ by mxl@mathstodon.xyz
2023-03-25T22:02:37Z
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@lauren This is not happening in real world. Everything here is subtle not directly enforced. China is not an open book.I told you it's fear. It is using the fear to manipulate. Both sides do.By Chinese, you mean Chinese government, right?
(DIR) Post #AU0QXhVDjb4F4SzOZE by lomanfeusagach@mastodon.social
2023-03-26T11:22:46Z
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@lauren and is unlikely to be pushed back by any social media company, because it then provides even more verified data to sell against.
(DIR) Post #AU0TsZnnrIut8IKLE8 by del@neurodifferent.me
2023-03-26T12:00:00Z
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@lauren @arpcomics If done properly with a decentralised zero-knowledge-proof ID solution government documents could be used to verify identity without sharing personal info with the networks (or the government for that matter).The tech exists but is their the appetite to implement?
(DIR) Post #AU0jBx4J4vII6dk9PE by mcmcgreevy@signs.codes
2023-03-26T14:51:43Z
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@lauren @funhouseradio And I agree with you. I don't want government regulated identification checks as a requirement to use social media or the internet in general.
(DIR) Post #AU0nAvm0o8NPcHxGMq by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-26T15:36:26Z
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@lomanfeusagach Actually, there will be pushback, because they know they will lose a great number of users who no longer will participate in their ecosystems. And the large firms really are uninterested in getting involved with that sort of PII and the regulatory and liability issues that come with it. They don't need it and they don't want it.
(DIR) Post #AU0nW5ZzXmKS6wQBma by arpcomics@mythology.social
2023-03-26T12:36:36Z
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@del @lauren The appetite is influenced by one partyâs need to control đ¤ˇđ˝ââď¸Do you have a link you could share on how this would work?
(DIR) Post #AU0nW6DhAA5W64ztfU by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-26T15:40:14Z
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@arpcomics @del (1) The Internet ID "protect the children" efforts are being driven by BOTH parties at both the state and federal level. At the federal level a new bipartisan proposal is already in the queue. This is NOT an effort of one party over the other.(2) Anything less than linking to conventional government issued IDs will be of absolutely no interest to the proponents of these Internet ID systems.
(DIR) Post #AU0og03Z26qjpcXkno by lomanfeusagach@mastodon.social
2023-03-26T15:53:21Z
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@lauren yeah I guess your are right on that. If they are forced to do it by state laws, they will likely try to benefit from it also, right?
(DIR) Post #AU0op9ufkvEV0Wkfnk by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-26T15:54:57Z
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@lomanfeusagach They want to keep their users happy. Unhappy users are users who don't stick around. Trust me on this.
(DIR) Post #AU0pzVVyOcyiqzhI7E by del@neurodifferent.me
2023-03-26T16:07:59Z
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@lauren @arpcomics Both/all are possible with DID/SSI, however the more traditional corporate-led, certificate-based approach Apple and others are taking will likely win out unless government actively take the lead and adopting the verifiable credential W3C standard.
(DIR) Post #AU0rF7B6kLUhxkwZfM by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-26T16:22:03Z
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@del @arpcomics The whole point is to enable government to ultimately track everyone's usage of the Net in detail, as in China. So zero-knowledge is not gonna happen.
(DIR) Post #AU3WBqcILlocAN8nia by kevindalley@sfba.social
2023-03-27T23:10:15Z
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@laurenI'm imagining what happens when laurenweinstein.org is told to checks ID for all users@seanm @thomasafine
(DIR) Post #AU3gCisZbPIW04oLOi by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-28T01:02:29Z
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@kevindalley @seanm @thomasafine That's easy. My instance only has one user -- me. And that's not going to change. But someday this issue could become significant for large instances with many users, at least.